is it just me or thornmail is kinda useless on the champions you¨d expect it to be useful agaisn´t ?

RainbowIcee·Jul 21, 2016·54 votes·5,259 views

Like do you feel it helps you tank or fend off auto attackers ? Like sure its useful early game when they dont really have much lifesteal but thats like early early game but mid game comes it doesnt feel reliable at all. Probably the worst tank item because it doesnt even give hp and its effect its really weak. Especially now that people build MR dmg items like

There doesnt need to be an item to automatically beat the auto attackers but they do far too much damage and are untankable even for a slight few seconds so maybe this one item that could make this be not as bad should probably be looked at even if its just a bit to help out? Its like false advertisement its there to do something but it doesnt do it and we could really use the item about now

165 Comments

LuggJul 21, 201617 votes

Thornmail is just plain useless against all champs to be honest.

ReikkenJul 21, 201616 votes

frozen heart and randuin's omen have always been stronger for tanking autoattackers

Hello GeorgieJul 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

frozen heart and randuin's omen have always been stronger for tanking autoattackers

until its vayne

ReikkenJul 22, 20166 votes

nope, even for Vayne. Nay, especially for Vayne. the attack speed reduction will do you better than the extra armor

EedatJul 21, 201614 votes

No reason to build item 3075 when item 3068 has better stats and more damage output

RainbowIceeJul 22, 20163 votes

and better wave clear.

CherysseJul 21, 20169 votes

item 3075 is almost useless in it's current state, yet it is broken in these champs: Malphite Rammus Taric Riot needs to rework it, right now it sucks.

SpoofghoulJul 21, 201636 votes

its not even broken on those champs

those champs are the only ones who can actually use the item somewhat and even on them its kinda weak and situational on top of that.

It is currently just a noobtrap item only usefull to troll tryndamere players after firstblooding them

Malicious MetalJul 22, 20165 votes

Funny thing, I actually get an early Thornmail when laning against trynd.

bill84Jul 22, 20161 votes

Everyone always forgets Galio when they say this Also Galio can sometimes get item 3165 with that which will counter the life steal making thornmail less effective (although I usually don't do this).

EedatJul 22, 20169 votes

item 3075 is still pretty useless on Galio because by nature of his kit he's not going to be stacking any other armor. item 3068 is still the better choice.

Linna ExcelJul 22, 20168 votes

Maybe thornmail should inflict grievous wounds.

ZT XperimentorJul 21, 20167 votes

Even before marksmen got a bunch of free magic resist, the thornmail's reflection damage was useless when they reworked it; a single lifesteal item can easily outdo the damage thornmail is supposed to provide. It should be reflecting true damage since it's such a small percentage of damage returned; or apply grievous wounds. I don't care which, just tired of marksmen outtanking tanks by merely right clicking.

PermabannedGarenJul 21, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OYlQQJr5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-21T21:11:07.497+0000)

Even before marksmen got a bunch of free magic resist, the thornmail's reflection damage was useless when they reworked it; a single lifesteal item can easily outdo the damage thornmail is supposed to provide. It should be reflecting true damage since it's such a small percentage of damage returned; or apply grievous wounds. I don't care which, just tired of marksmen outtanking tanks by merely right clicking.

There is not a single lifesteal item that costs less than thornmail.

Why shouldn't lifesteal items outheal the damage thornmail alone does?

ZT XperimentorJul 21, 201610 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm] It's not the cost, it's the effectiveness; and you're also incorrect, vampiric scepter. Thornmail was initially labeled as the anti-lifesteal tank item, just as the frozen heart was the anti attack speed turn to; what good is an 'anti-item' if it doesn't improve the capacity to go against what it was designed for?

MelledoneusJul 22, 20164 votes

Doran's blade can outsustain thornmail.

ZT XperimentorJul 22, 20161 votes

I was referring to items that actually build into something; not cheap stackables.

MelledoneusJul 25, 20162 votes

My point was that Doran's blade, the ADC starter item, overpowers a ~2k gold item.

Shrek LuigiJul 22, 20167 votes

There was a thread a while back where someone suggested that Thornmail should apply a light Grevious Wounds, and I thought that was a pretty good idea. I wouldn't mind if it was only a small reduction, and if the cost of the item had to be increased proportionally. The amount of damage Thornmail actually does is more-or-less offset by the purchase of one lifesteal item--feels likes a waste as the game drags on.

KeepeJul 22, 20165 votes

How about a grievous wound kinda like Omen? Only applies to the one being attacked, like the AS Slow.

TheOvermindJul 22, 20165 votes

People need to understand that thorn mail is actually good vs lifestealers for one good reason:

If you are a tank and have a lot of resists (armor in this case) the adc will be doing very little dmg with each shot. This means they will be lifesteal ing a lot less. This is because lifesteal is calculated based off of the amount of damage dealt and not a flat amount. Auto attackers that heal on hit (same amount of heal no matter how much armor the enemy has) like aatrox (his w) , xin xhao ( his w) ,ww ( passive and q) and irelia (her w) are actually quite strong vs thorn mail, because they will out sustain it.

Now a yi, tryndamere, jinx, Tristana, twitch these all get rekt by thornmail, because they heal for so little from purchased lifesteal, that will be eventually wore down to very low hp if they decide to focus down the heavy armor with thornmail person. (They would have to buy a lot more than 15-20 % lifesteal that they usually buy to out sustain the thornmail,)

HOWEVER, ever since the introduction of the new last whisper items, black cleaver becoming popular on adcs and maw and mercurial being in almost very adc build, thornmail has never felt weaker.

A buff is most definitely needed:

I would either:

change the damage returned from magic to true to ignore the overwhelming amounts of mr bought on adcs 2)change the formula from ~~15% of dmg dealt plus 25% of armor as bonus magic damage~~ To 15% (+5% for every 100 armor) of dmg dealt is returned ( still magic dmg)

Also the last whisper items are a slight issue because they render half your bonus armor null and void which is not ok in my opinion.

Black cleaver needs to stay away from adcs because it actually reduces armor which in turn reduces the thormails effectiveness(since you have less armor)

NilokJul 22, 20164 votes

Honestly, they either need to make the damage from thornmail non-reduceable, increase the damage, or add a grevious wounds effect from it with clear visuals showing what is happening.

DeathBurstJul 22, 20164 votes

So, for people who understand balance better than me, what would happen if Thornmail damage was made Physical instead of Magical?

Chess1Jul 21, 20163 votes

It is simply outclassed by frozenheart and randuins omen

Lintu PuckJul 22, 20163 votes

am I the only player that doesn't see items like Thorn and Sun as useless?

VerdadeJul 22, 20165 votes

Sunfire is VERY powerful, thornmail is trash

ZerglingOneJul 22, 20163 votes

Try combining it with a item 3146

Fun little incoming damage reduction interaction. Yes it works, I've tested the shit out of it.

Reaper SorakaJul 22, 20163 votes

This is going to sound silly, but it just doesn't give enough armor, or it doesn't deal enough return damage to be cost efficient on champions other than Rammus.

Too much armor pen exists, and nobody skips those items.

HyperiönJul 22, 20162 votes

LDR, is rediculously broken. APEN used to to be 30 from lw, and stacking cleaver affect and thats it, then they decided to give half the AD items apen, and boom, completely destroys tank items making them pretty much useless.

LovelleJul 22, 20163 votes

Unless the champ you're playing has bonus armor scaling and/or steroids, you're better off with any other armor item.

rG ThundragJul 22, 20163 votes

From my experience since the changes thornmail has been more effective against AA based fighters/bruisers than actual ADCs as they often have no way to bypass all the armor. Where as ADCs have been going heavy armor pen builds with a large variety of lifesteal options and such your armor and sustained damage from thornmail becomes meaningless when you die in under 7 seconds.

Champion SkinJul 23, 20163 votes

Thornmail is at it's strongest against high attack speed champions with low damage per attack especially so for champions that have a lot of armor And Thornmail is less effective if the enemy has MR, Lifesteal (especially with armor pen), Black Cleaver (as the armor shred reduce the return damage because of the armor scaling)

VolcanuzJul 22, 20163 votes

I think the real problem with the item is it really only affects auto attacks. Where most champions who are AD now have multiple abilities tied to AD and the damage done to you which is physical is being done with those abilities, and when you use thorn and they know you are using it they will just ability burn you.

The other problem is multiple damage sources. If you are 1v1 a ADC you will win with Thorn as a tank, as that excess damage adds to your ability damage causing you to roll over them by forcing them to hurt them self. But in team fights you have so much different types of damage at times, and from different people, so you can only give a small back out of your possible 2.8k-5k health, and most times you have been poked down before the fight started so even then when the fight starts you have lost so much already and when they do hit you they do it with abilities.

I agree the gold value of the item is pretty bad but i guess at least the raw amount of armor you get from it is nice..

Mr VulcanatorJul 22, 20163 votes

I've never noticed the item doing anything for me.

CrazFight Jul 21, 20162 votes

[deleted]

RainbowIceeJul 21, 201613 votes

thorn barely reflects any damage and it reflects it back as magic damage so magic resist items further decrese the damage reflected further.

Tobias BracknerJul 22, 20161 votes

So?

NineTailedMysticJul 22, 20168 votes

So its unique passive is virtually worthless.

Tobias BracknerJul 22, 20161 votes

Why?

Sounds pretty sweet for duels.

Dextix LTJul 22, 20168 votes

Yea, it sounds sweet. But its not. The damage it does is completely non important, especially if enemy has some kind of healing. Also, many offensive items these days have defensive stats given to them for no goddamn reason so again, like with Mercurial the damage of thornmail is even more reduced, thus making it useless.

Tobias BracknerJul 22, 20161 votes

The damage it does is completely non important

How is this even a thing? Like, how can damage be "non important" ? That doesn't make any sense, even if the enemy has healing.

Thornmail reflects 15% of dmg dealt. Bloodthirster has 20% lifesteal

So unless I'm mathing wrong, Thornmail is dropping that down to 5% lifesteal while also flat reducing the dmg taken. That seems pretty sweet to me.

Dextix LTJul 22, 20168 votes

You are operating on a premise that an adc will have only bloodthirster. Many adcs currently have armor pen, lifesteal and crits in their builds.

They couldnt care less about thornmail, since it also gives no hp, only armor.

Furthermore, thornmails damage is also reduced by resistances.

Its a completely useless item in the current meta, even on armor scaling champions.

When i mean that its damage is unimportant, i mean while comparing the effects of other items. Which are far better and give far better stats for what they are.

Tobias BracknerJul 22, 20161 votes

Many adcs currently have armor pen, lifesteal and crits in their builds.

Irrelevant to the core point. It is inarguable that Thornmail goes a long way to reduce lifesteal. Any argument that "Thornmail is negated by lifesteal" is stupid because it can easily be argued that "lifesteal is crippled by Thornmail"

As for your "only Armor no HP therefore useless" do you have any math to back that up or are you just saying stuff and assuming it's true?

Dextix LTJul 22, 20164 votes

Aye, thornmail "reduces" lifesteal. And? Every other armor item is still better than that effect! You have 2 great armor items that reduce atk speed, you have 2 that give you more damage than thornmail. There are at least 4 superior items to thornmail, because it does something that is being done better by others.

Thornmail gets reduced by resistances. making it near useless against any kind of mag def. An adc lifesteal is not affected by anything besides grevious wounds.

And im sorry, have you played the game? Having armor without hp is useless.

It is useless against any kind of well built hybrid team, or even a team with 1 ap. If the enemy buys armor penetration, you are basically shreded because you dont have any hp to tank.

Def stats are important ONLY when they are paired up with some kind of other defence, in the case of tanks, its hp. You can have shitloads of armor and it wont matter if you have only 2k HP.

ÂFRÏCÂN GØDJul 23, 20163 votes

Yea I'm convinced this kid doesn't play the game n is here for some petty trolling. Everyone knows thornmail isn't good without hp and you basically won't outlive the damage by simply having it. Thats depending on if it works well with skills. I.e. amumu w, rammus w or R, shit like that. Then of course there is sunfire for that.. Better to buy hp first to sustain a fight than building flat armor w little damage output that barely effects an ad champ who by time you have thornmail will be putting out damage and able to outsustain you. The "math" is in the pudding and the pudding is common sense. Kids retarded n looking for attention. Don't even bother

Only Play DariusJul 22, 20162 votes

It works fine on Malphite Rammus Taric . For everyone else it's a horseshit item.

SkiasJul 22, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OYlQQJr5,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-07-22T01:35:27.262+0000)

It works fine on . For everyone else it's a horseshit item.

I don't even buy it on Taric cause its shit. All the true damage and Armor pen makes an item without health crap.

Dextix LTJul 22, 20163 votes

It really doesn't. Why buy thornmail when something like frozen heart exists that is far more efficient. Thornmails effect sucks. And that item is not worth for the stats since armor pen has been increased and it gives nothing but armor.

Oakleaf RangerJul 22, 20162 votes

seriously you usually have stack a butt ton of armor to make the damage reflected noticeable and even then it still sucks unless you get more benefits for having armor like Malphite Rammus . I want to see the item changed but still not give health.

Existential BardJul 22, 20162 votes

I actually think Thornmail is completely fine. You just have to make sure you are actually going tank. If you build full armor item 3075 item 3143 item 3068 item 3026 item 3512 item 3047 you gain 25% damage from all the armor and 15% from incoming damage done to you. Along with the Reduced damage from crits should help you survive. I think the issue is that the backline (casters/ adc/ bruisers on your team arent focusing the correct targets in teamfights so that you can survive.)