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How to identify your melee: duelist vs fighter vs tank

Done25··6 votes·5,110 views

Since not many seem to understand the difference I'm going to help explain. :D

Duelist: Yi, Tryndamere, Fiora, Shaco, Nocturne, Udyr A duelist relies almost ENTIRELY on their auto attacks and will feature multiple attack based stat boosts. Yi gets attack/move speed and on hit true damage. Tryndamere gets critical chance and AD. Fiora gains flat AD and a speed booster that refreshes on kill/assist. Shaco has his clone and initial auto crit. Noc has his stat boosting Duskbringer and spell shield. Udry hits faster by swapping stances and can change between AD nuke+attack speed, movespeed+stun, and lifesteal+shield. Expect a Ghostblade to fit nicely into their hands.

Fighter: Trundle, Vi, Nasus, Jarvan, Mundo, Volibear Fighters still auto attack, but are more tanky and focus less on pure dps. Instead, they like lowering their opponent's stats. Trundle steals AD + armor and mr. Vi reduces armor. Jarvan shreds armor and has an AoE slow. Mundo has a long range skillshot slow, while Volibear has an AoE slow that fears non champions. And they generally build tanky ad items like Maw or reducer items like Omen.

Tank: Alistar, Galio, Maokai, Rammus, Singed, Nautilus Tanks forgo auto attacks almost entirely, instead relying mainly on their abilities. Alistar runs around Pulverizing people, Galio walks into the middle of your team and hits R. Maokai tosses saplings everywhere. Rammus is all about powerballing right into the middle of the enemy team and setting off Tremors next the taunted marksman. Singed just runs about spewing poison everywhere. Nautalis empowers his attacks, but only while his shield is up. Rather than using AD, almost all tanks will want to build AP [ex. Rod of Ages] if they need to increase their damage. (They're basically melee range mages, and are even occasionally used as such. [Ex, AP Cho’Gath])

Feel free to ask about anyone I haven't mentioned.

28 Comments

Talamare2 votes

Lee Sin?

Done251 votes

Lee Sin?

100% fighter. He needs to frequently use his abilities in order to attack faster, and he has to attack to get energy to use his abilities. His Cripple lowers an affected enemy's movespeed. (And use to lower attack speed as well.)

TheFallenShaw1 votes

Almost all tanks build entirely AP in order to increase their damage.

^ Wrong

Almost all tanks build entirely def items, Armor, Magic Resist and HP. they do not build AP, bc if they do they are no longer a tank.

Done251 votes

Almost all tanks build entirely AP in order to increase their damage.

^ Wrong

Almost all tanks build entirely def items, Armor, Magic Resist and HP. they do not build AP, bc if they do they are no longer a tank.

Re-read that. I said to increase their DAMAGE. Rammus would build a Liandry over a Frozen mallet. Maokai just loves his Rod of Ages. Because sometimes your team is useless and you just need to man up and deal with that 10/2/8 Ahri yourself. Does it make sense now?

(Edit: I reworded that section. It should read more clearly now.)

FiendOfOne1 votes

Duelists: People who excel at one on one combat. Examples include Irelia, Fiora, Shaco, Tryndamere, Nocturne. They usually have some minor CC, but always have abilities that reinforce their capabilities in a 1v1 situation and are less effective in mass combat (though almost never ineffective). Similar to assassins but usually less bursty.

Fighters: Enh. Most fighters are duelists, but several of them aren't necessarily as good in a 1v1; these are your typical bruisers, semi-tanky, semi-damagey. They tend to not necessarily be less effective in 1v1, but their abilities are more of a threat in teamfights and less 'damn it, this guy just found me alone and squared off.' Sion is a great example of a fighter (if you don't build him pure tank). While he can be scary in a 1v1, his slow telegraphed moves mean that more mobile duelists, like Irelia or Fiora, are going to run circles around him. In a teamfight, during the chaos and other CC flying in, he's terrifying. Yasuo is another great example; while scary in a 1v1, his true potential comes out in teamfights, where has maximumum mobility and can shred an entire team.

Tanks: CC, damage absorbers. They usually have a closer of some kind, CC, and are damn hard to kill. The above mentioned ones are great and all, but let's expand on that. Garen (who can also be a fighter, depending on build path), Leona, Volibear. Note that most tanks can also be built into AP or bruisers pretty easily with proper itemization, and many tanks pick up at least one damage item (usually one that applies defensive stats as well; RoA, Abyssal Scepter, Iceborn Gauntlet)

Done251 votes

Duelists: People who excel at one on one combat. Examples include Irelia, Fiora, Shaco, Tryndamere, Nocturne. They usually have some minor CC, but always have abilities that reinforce their capabilities in a 1v1 situation and are less effective in mass combat (though almost never ineffective). Similar to assassins but usually less bursty.

So basically you agree with what I said. Though Irelia is more of a Fighter due to her Passive, E, and R.

Fighters: Enh. Most fighters are duelists, but several of them aren't necessarily as good in a 1v1; these are your typical bruisers, semi-tanky, semi-damagey.

Still in agreement.

They tend to not necessarily be less effective in 1v1, but their abilities are more of a threat in teamfights and less 'damn it, this guy just found me alone and squared off.

Ehhh, not entirely true. (Trundle and Vi are fighters who specialize in 1v1.)

Sion is a great example of a fighter (if you don't build him pure tank). While he can be scary in a 1v1, his slow telegraphed moves mean that more mobile duelists, like Irelia or Fiora, are going to run circles around him. In a teamfight, during the chaos and other CC flying in, he's terrifying.

Sion is not a fighter, he's an abomination. :D (Real talk: Sion is a AD Tank/Duelist. While he is alive he walks around shouting at people and using his Q. (Which needs time to charge, time during which he isn't auto attacking.) When he dies his Attack speed is SET to 1.5 (making attack speed items useless) and he turns into an auto attacking monster.)

Yasuo is another great example; while scary in a 1v1, his true potential comes out in teamfights, where has maximumum mobility and can shred an entire team.

No, I'm fairly certain that Yas is the very definition of a duelist. Attack speed makes his Q recharge faster, and both his dash and windwall have no (usable) scaling. When he ults he gains a massive amounts of armor penetration, and his passive literally doubles his chance to crit. The only reason he does so well in team fights is that his R is an AoE and can be used with team generated displacements. (Hello there Kalista and Rek'Sai...)

Tanks: CC, damage absorbers. They usually have a closer of some kind, CC, and are damn hard to kill. The above mentioned ones are great and all, but let's expand on that.

I'm with you so far...

Garen (who can also be a fighter, depending on build path),

No, no, no, and NO. Say it with me. Garen. Is. Not. A. Tank. Garen is a fighter. He builds tanky AD items like Maw, Frozen Mallet, and (the now gone) Atmas. When he's not busy spinning to win Garen will put out most of his damage via auto attacks, using his Q to increase this.

Here is another thing that people rarely understand. Tanks don't care about Tenacity. They're gated by cool downs anyways. That Alistar you just stunned? He had another 3 seconds left to wait on Pulverize anyways. Tanks WANT you to CC them. Fighters don't. Fighters LOVE Tenacity. Because they need to be able to auto attack. This is why both Garen and Irelia have free Tenacity. This is why Gangplank's oranges cleanse him.

Leona, Volibear. Note that most tanks can also be built into AP or bruisers pretty easily with proper itemization, and many tanks pick up at least one damage item (usually one that applies defensive stats as well; RoA, Abyssal Scepter, Iceborn Gauntlet)

Leona is a tank (Even if her damage base and scaling is tainted by being made into a support.), Volibear is not. Volibear needs to attack both to use his Ult, and in order to build up Frenzy stacks. He also builds AD, which very few tanks do. (In fact, the only one I can even think of off the top of my head is Sion, and, as I said before, he's an abomination.)

TheFallenShaw1 votes

Garen (who can also be a fighter, depending on build path),

No, no, no, and NO. Say it with me. Garen. Is. Not. A. Tank. Garen is a fighter. He builds tanky AD items like Maw, Frozen Mallet, and (the now gone) Atmas. When he's not busy spinning to win Garen will put out most of his damage via auto attacks, using his Q to increase this.

Garen is actually classified as Primary : Fighter and Secondary : Tank, though most build him pure tank due to the fact he doesn't need any Off Items. His skill set alone in enough to kill enemys. Personally I've never cared to build frozen or maw, just armor and MR hp items are better due to garen's skill set. And with proper runes and master's he has enough basic ad to not need anyhelp

Done251 votes

Garen (who can also be a fighter, depending on build path),

No, no, no, and NO. Say it with me. Garen. Is. Not. A. Tank. Garen is a fighter. He builds tanky AD items like Maw, Frozen Mallet, and (the now gone) Atmas. When he's not busy spinning to win Garen will put out most of his damage via auto attacks, using his Q to increase this.

Garen is actually classified as** Primary : Fighter** and Secondary : Tank

That's the important part.

though most build him pure tank due to the fact he doesn't need any Off Items. His skill set alone in enough to kill enemys. Personally I've never cared to build frozen or maw, just armor and MR hp items are better due to garen's skill set. And with proper runes and master's he has enough basic ad to not need anyhelp

That's because Riot refuses to let him scale into late game. I assure you, if Judgement didn't have that obnoxious -50% damage on crits, and only on the AD ratio part to boot(!), people would be getting IE and other AD items.

ScalyManChard1 votes

Eh not sure I agree with OP definitions, I use the terms more like FiendOfOne.

The melee continuum is "assassin-fighter/bruiser-tank". It simply goes from highly-squishy + highly mobile + high damage -> tankier, generally with - damage + utility Bruiser, when contrasted to fighter, generally means a tankier fighter. Fighters can have similar DPS as Assassins but if this is the case will almost always have less mobility or burst. Assassins almost always have excellent burst.

Duelist Is a term referencing a champion's 1v1 capabilities, usually vs other melees. Udyr Volibear Fiora can be considered duelists as they are pretty good 1v1 though some struggle vs. kiting. Yasuo isn't really a great duelist unless fed, he's more of a Teamfight Assassin. Good duelists almost always have tankiness or lifesteal.

Many champions have versatile builds as well and can be a horrible or great duelist, or cover 2/3 of the melee continuum depending on build. Volibear can fit both Bruiser and Tank definitions depending on build. Rengar can range from Assassin to Fighter, and his dueling capacity varies greatly based on his build (Hydra vs BOTRK, Ghostblade vs Black Cleaver...)

The autoattack classifications you have are somewhat correct but largely incidental. Most of the DPS melees (duelists/assassins-fighter) are AD and thus build Armor Pen and AD. This means their autoattacks will do a fair amount more damage, which is why they use them. The lowering the stats is largely incidental too.

I think OP's definitions are too specific and oddly defined for terms used so broadly and loosely. IMO most people use: Fighter to refer to someone who can give and take damage, Tank for a champion that can soak huge amounts of damage. Duelist means someone good at 1v1. Assassin is the 3rd category on the squishiness/damage melee continuum.

Point being If it was a continuum, someone could not be a Tank-Duelist just as (AFAIK) there are no assassin-tanks.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Point being If it was a continuum, someone could not be a Tank-Duelist just as (AFAIK) there are no assassin-tanks.

Well I suppose you could build a DFG on malphite or Garen and assassinate with your ult ;) but that's not very reasonable and it detracts a lot from their actual tankiness.

I agree much more with your scale than the OPs.

Raja Chachki1 votes

What are your thoughts on Irelia(ignoring the tag she is given). I play her tank, with Tri Force as my only damage. Is this viable? Every once and awhile I will build Hydra on her as it is actually quite strong when synergizing with her W.

Done251 votes

What are your thoughts on Irelia(ignoring the tag she is given). I play her tank, with Tri Force as my only damage. Is this viable? Every once and awhile I will build Hydra on her as it is actually quite strong when synergizing with her W.

You can go tank if you really want to, but just don't expect to be at all relevant come end game. You would really just be there to soak up damage and CC. Try grabbing a Maw. It gives a powerful anti-magic shield and gives more AD the less HP you have. A BotRK would also go nicely with her on hit true damage/sustain and give her a bit of extra stickyness.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Riven is her own category :]

More like an assassin-fighter hybrid.

Done251 votes

Riven is her own category :]

More like an assassin-fighter hybrid.

Riven is not an assassin. Talon is an assassin. Shaco is an assassin. They have long range jumps and are extremely slippery. Riven is just really good at dealing large amounts of damage over time.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Riven is her own category :]

More like an assassin-fighter hybrid.

Riven is not an assassin. Talon is an assassin. Shaco is an assassin. They have long range jumps and are extremely slippery. Riven is just really good at dealing large amounts of damage over time.

wat? riven is extremely bursty. even with 40% CDR her damage over time is going to be less than an auto attacker like yasuo or yi. she excels in killing squishy champs in a single burst combo. that's pretty much what assassins do. and she has several gap closers to do it with which conveniently makes her extremely slippery

Done251 votes

Riven is her own category :]

More like an assassin-fighter hybrid.

Riven is not an assassin. Talon is an assassin. Shaco is an assassin. They have long range jumps and are extremely slippery. Riven is just really good at dealing large amounts of damage over time.

wat? riven is extremely bursty. even with 40% CDR her damage over time is going to be less than an auto attacker like yasuo or yi. she excels in killing squishy champs in a single burst combo. that's pretty much what assassins do. and she has several gap closers to do it with which conveniently makes her extremely slippery

No. She has multiple short dashes. "Slippery" is Lee Sin tossing a ward over a wall, or QQing to a jungle camp. Slippery is Shaco using his Decoy to run out of a bush while he jumps behind you. Slippery is Eve killing your carry then breaking free of all slows to run away.

What she CAN do is deal large amount of damage in an AREA. Wave clearing. Team fighting. She does not 1v1, she 1v5s. But she needs time. A large amount of her damage coems from Runic Blade and Blade of the Exile. Which means she has to weave auto attacks in between ehr abilities. (Which is what fighters do.)

SummonerSquid1 votes

I made a diagram.

In term of defensive and fighting stats, assassins and duelists are very similar. Duelists tend to not have as much mobility and have more sustained damage, whereas assassins have more mobility and more burst damage. I use the term duelist and assassin synonymously in the infographic.

I would consider Riven a duelist, Shaco a bruisery duelist, Irelia a bruiser, Garen a tanky bruiser. I'd call Pantheon the most bruisery assassin (duelist) there is.

Junkο1 votes

Fighter Mundo and Voli

Voli maybe, but Mundo DEF not

Nveriyoth1 votes

Uh…Jax?

Done251 votes

Fighter Mundo and Voli

Voli maybe, but Mundo DEF not

Mundo can get up to +199 AD depending on missing health. Tyrndamere would KILL for that kind of free stat bonus. Not to mention that Mundo simply has NO hard CC of any kind.

Uh…Jax?

Jax is a duelist. Jump at someone, auto attack until they die.

Here's a quick checklist:

In terms of single target dps from highest to lowest.

Do I build AD, attack speed, and/or crit? Duelist. (Yi with Ghostblade, Infinity Edge, Phantom dancer.) Do I build AD and defence ? Fighter. (Volibear with Omen, Sunfire Cape, and Wit's End.) Do I build AP and defence? Tank. (Singed with RoA, Abyssal Scepter, Rylas.)

Nveriyoth1 votes

Fighter Mundo and Voli

Voli maybe, but Mundo DEF not

Mundo can get up to +199 AD depending on missing health. Tyrndamere would KILL for that kind of free stat bonus. Not to mention that Mundo simply has NO hard CC of any kind.

Uh…Jax?

Jax is a duelist. Jump at someone, auto attack until they die.

Here's a quick checklist:

In terms of single target dps from highest to lowest.

Do I build AD, attack speed and, crit? Duelist. Do I build AD and defence ? Fighter. Do I build AP and defence? Tank.

Kk thought so, just checking with "the expert"

Azaer1 votes

Aatrox? I honestly can't decide which since he begins as a duelist for sure, but later on in teamfights and enough defensive items (a randuins and a visage) he goes into fighter mode.

Done251 votes

Point being If it was a continuum, someone could not be a Tank-Duelist just as (AFAIK) there are no assassin-tanks.

Well I suppose you could build a DFG on malphite or Garen and assassinate with your ult ;) but that's not very reasonable and it detracts a lot from their actual tankiness.

I agree much more with your scale than the OPs.

There is no such thing as an assassin+tank combo, and for good reason. If Galio could delete your carry with a Veigar ult then tank the rest of your team without effort he would be horrendously broken!

Aatrox? I honestly can't decide which since he begins as a duelist for sure, but later on in teamfights and enough defensive items (a randuins and a visage) he goes into fighter mode.

Aatrox is a Fighter. Most of his damage/sustain comes from Blood Thirst/Price. The problem is that Aatrox is just so gosh darn AWFUL at everything that no one knows what to do with him. ;D

Done251 votes

Kk thought so, just checking with "the expert"

:P

Just want to say that I'm quite happy you put so much thought and effort into your post. :D Please don't take it personal when I tear it down, just means I think you're worth the time. ^_^

Eh not sure I agree with OP definitions, I use the terms more like FiendOfOne. The melee continuum is "assassin-fighter/bruiser-tank".

The problem is that we can have assassins who are fighters (Kha'Zix and Lee Sin) and we have assassins who are duelists. (Nocturne and Shaco.)

"Assassin" is simply the play style of get in, kill, get out.

Kha'Zix will slow a target with his spikes, jump in, attack, Q, attack them to death then stealth away before doing it again. If he's lucky he might even get a reset on his jump for an easy over the wall escape.

Lee will QQ into a target, Dragon Kick, then Cripple his whole team before running away with Safeguard.

Nocturne will use his ult to dive at lone split pushers, relying on his high DPS and Fear to kill them before their team can figure out what happened. If anyone shows up he can run off with Duskbringer and Shroud of Darkness to aid his escape.

Shaco can use Deceive to pop out of then back into the fog of war, using his Jack in the Box to cover his blind spots. If he's REALLY crafty, he can Hallucinate and lead them away with his clone.

It simply goes from highly-squishy + highly mobile + high damage -> tankier, generally with - damage + utility Bruiser, when contrasted to fighter, generally means a tankier fighter.

So they're basically the same thing then.

Fighters can have similar DPS as Assassins but if this is the case will almost always have less mobility or burst. Assassins almost always have excellent burst.

Not always. While Talon might be content to Rake people to death, Noc and Shaco deal their damage in terms of AA based DPS.

Duelist Is a term referencing a champion's 1v1 capabilities, usually vs other melees.

People putting out 450+ points of single target physical damage every second tend to be good at killing, this is true.

Udyr Volibear Fiora can be considered duelists as they are pretty good 1v1 though some struggle vs. kiting. Yasuo isn't really a great duelist unless fed, he's more of a Teamfight Assassin.

I do consider Udyr a duelist, as his Tiger Stance becomes quite frightful late game. Same for Fiora with her massive attack speed booster.

VOLIBEAR, however, has most of his damage come from his R. And that needs multiple targets to reach its full potential.

Yasou is a bit of a weirdo, he's a duelist that pretends he's an AD caster. His Q scales off of attack speed and critical chance, while his R gives a huge amount of armor penetration vs bonus defense after he activates it. (Supposedly after landing 3 Qs, with with all the AoE knock ups that Riot is putting in the game it's just far too easy to just let Kalista throw someone at the other team.) (See continuation post)

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Duelist means someone good at 1v1. Assassin is the 3rd category on the squishiness/damage melee continuum. Are you trying to say that a duelist can't be an assassin and vice versa?

I think duelist is a category that doesn't exclude you from any other. It's simply being able to 1v1. Trundle is a tank but he's a great duelist. Zed is an assassin and he's also a great duelist. I'm not really sure it belongs in this sort of classification of fighter/bruiser/assassin/tank

Done251 votes

Duelist means someone good at 1v1. Assassin is the 3rd category on the squishiness/damage melee continuum. Are you trying to say that a duelist can't be an assassin and vice versa?

I think duelist is a category that doesn't exclude you from any other. It's simply being able to 1v1. Trundle is a tank but he's a great duelist. Zed is an assassin and he's also a great duelist. I'm not really sure it belongs in this sort of classification of fighter/bruiser/assassin/tank

Trundle lacks the hard CC needed to be a tank. You just as well argue that Anivia is a tank because she can block movement and slow as well. Trundle can fight 1v1 thanks to his Chomp! and Frozen domain. But only IF he can stay within his domain. If he gets lured or forcibly moved away from it, he loses a lot of his damage. The bonuses aren't all that great either. And his ult is best when used against a very tanky target. It wont do you very much good against the 50 armor 2000 hp Caitlyn.

Done251 votes

Oh dear, the post got so big the chat box can't handle it. D: One moment while I try to fix it!

Done251 votes

(continuation post)

Many champions have versatile builds as well and can be a horrible or great duelist, or cover 2/3 of the melee continuum depending on build. Volibear can fit both Bruiser and Tank definitions depending on build.

You can build Volibear durably, but he isn't a tank. There IS a difference. You can give him pure defensive stats, but without at least a little attack speed he wont be worth much come late game with just his weak flip and PBAoE slow. Singed is just fine with raw AP to power HIS flip though, that's why he's a tank.

Rengar can range from Assassin to Fighter, and his dueling capacity varies greatly based on his build (Hydra vs BOTRK, Ghostblade vs Black Cleaver...)

You can be both a fighter and an assassin at the same time. No need to be one or the other. just like you can be both a mage and a support. (Sona, Nami, Orianna)

The autoattack classifications you have are somewhat correct but largely incidental. Most of the DPS melees (duelists/assassins-fighter) are AD and thus build Armor Pen and AD. This means their autoattacks will do a fair amount more damage, which is why they use them. The lowering the stats is largely incidental too.

I would argue that all DPS melee are AD by their own nature. If they were ranged they would be marksmen. If they were AP they would be tanks. (Or Mordekaiser, but Riot likes to pretend he doesn't exist so they don't have to try and balance him.)

I think your definitions are too specific and oddly defined for terms used so broadly and loosely. IMO most people use:

I think the fact that the terms are broad and lose IS the problem.

Fighter to refer to someone who can give and take damage

Well yes. Instead of buying a Phantom Dancer Trundle would instead prefer a Frozen Mallet for HP or a Blade of the Ruined King for sustain.

Tank for a champion that can soak huge amounts of damage.

Just like fighters they give up lots of attack speed and crit in exchange for HP and armor/mr. But instead of a Frozen Mallet, Nautilus wants a Rod of Ages.

Duelist means someone good at 1v1. Assassin is the 3rd category on the squishiness/damage melee continuum.

Are you trying to say that a duelist can't be an assassin and vice versa?

Point being If it was a continuum, someone could not be a Tank-Duelist just as (AFAIK) there are no assassin-tanks.

Well you can't. I would very much like for you to point one out to me. Show me this mega tank with 3000 HP, 150 Armor+MR and 200 AD/400 AP that can 100~0 a carry before they can even attack.

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