A More Constructive Thread: How would you guys work Enchanters?

chipndip1·Oct 8, 2017·7 votes·760 views

You guys know it, I spam it on the boards daily, and even Riot has FINALLY come out and acknowledged it. Enchanter supports are generally face-roll and don't require much in the way of risk or variance in order to output passable or even excellent reward. Why play someone with deeper mechanics in solo queue when you can spam shields and grab a bag of elo? That said, it's easier to identify an issue than it is to create a solution, and this thread is an exercise in creating potential solutions...just cause it's more positive than just clamoring for Ardent Censer nerfs 24/7. Basically, out of the four main problem faces ( ), how would you guys either rework or VGU any or all of them to be better to play with/as/against?

Edit: Since people are having a hard time with how to flesh out Sona's kit, I had a gameplay update concept I typed up and posted on the Sonamains subreddit that I can drop here if anyone wants to look at it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sonamains/comments/753ezl/a_sona_gameplay_update_concept/

27 Comments

CeolOct 8, 20173 votes

With Sona, I feel that her kit could become more interactive and put larger emphasis on her power chord. Due to her kits' lack of skillshots - besides her ult - she's left quite weak (unless, of course, some sort of item that makes her relevant breaks her again)

Perhaps her ult could be replaced with one that functions like her power chord, giving the Sona player more versatility. This would most likely be more successful if her other spells to change from being purely ambient AoE effects.

Such as:

(R) Building Tempo - Sona builds tempo through ordered use of her spells, lasting for x seconds. Based on which order she uses her three abilities, Building Tempo changes in effect.

E>W>Q - Battle Trance Sona unleashes energy from her Etwahl in a cone, granting allies a burst of speed decaying over 3 seconds.

Q>E>W - Melody of Torment Sona frantically plays a flurry of notes that converge in a circular AoE at Sona's cursor, dealing X damage and stunning enemies hit by X seconds.

E>Q>W - Dissonance Sona flicks her hand across the Etwahl, unleashing a linear shock wave, knocking enemies to the side and slowing by X% decaying over 1 second.

W>Q>E - Shroud of protection Sona plays a soft melody, shielding an ally of her choosing for X + X %hp (of the target) for X seconds. If the shield is not broken over 2 seconds, the target gains a boost of movement speed decaying over 3 seconds.

Etc.

Possibly some of her basic abilities could just become some of these skills instead. They're only ideas.

For Soraka, I enjoy her thematic as "the healer" but there's not much counterplay besides buying grievous wounds (inherently flawed in itself) or focusing Soraka (which opens your team up to being slaughtered by non-focused carries + a good Soraka wouldn't be in a position to be caught out in the first place) In turn, we could make her abilities more effective if she plays it right. For instance,

(W) Whirl of Restoration - Soraka calls down a field of AoE heal, which ticks over 3/4/5 seconds in regular intervals (similar to how Janna's ult heal rate works). Each time Soraka lands Q - Starcall on an enemy champion, a small burst of heal within the zone (equivalent of two ticks) occurs.

This might require a small rework of Q, so that the Soraka will be more rewarded for landing it. Possibly extending the duration of W instead of a bursty heal?

(R) Wish - Lowered instantaneous heal. Slightly lowered cooldown. Soraka is able to channel for up to 2 seconds, enlargening her heal the longer it is channeled for.

The effectiveness over time and reduced "burst" of her heals would allow more time to both counteract her heals (forcing them out of her heal zone, cc-ing her during ult channel) and in return, would allow more power to be afforded to Soraka.

These are all only ideas though. (/o3o)/

chipndip1Oct 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

With Sona, I feel that her kit could become more interactive and put larger emphasis on her power chord. Due to her kits' lack of skillshots - besides her ult - she's left quite weak (unless, of course, some sort of item that makes her relevant breaks her again)

They already did, but it's Coin + Ardent + Athene's now.

Perhaps her ult could be replaced with one that functions like her power chord, giving the Sona player more versatility. This would most likely be more successful if her other spells to change from being purely ambient AoE effects.

Such as:

Etc.

Honestly, I think the only reason Riot wants to keep Sona's simplistic, fat, line ulti is because no one else has an ulti like it at this point. Idk if the ult is actually good for Sona as a champ, though. An ult based on the last move(s) you used could be interesting, though. However, if you have too many ult variants, that's a lot of different "ults" shoved into one champion. If this were to ever be acted on, it should be based on the last spell you used.

Possibly some of her basic abilities could just become some of these skills instead. They're only ideas.

It's been high time for Sona's basic abilities to be more involved than just "zones around me". Even if she's about sounds and aoe, the way it's implemented is sorely lacking. The only reason people are complacent with it in my opinion is because she's allowed to be broken by items.

For Soraka, I enjoy her thematic as "the healer" but there's not much counterplay besides buying grievous wounds (inherently flawed in itself) or focusing Soraka (which opens your team up to being slaughtered by non-focused carries + a good Soraka wouldn't be in a position to be caught out in the first place) In turn, we could make her abilities more effective if she plays it right. For instance,

(W) Whirl of Restoration - Soraka calls down a field of AoE heal, which ticks over 3/4/5 seconds in regular intervals (similar to how Janna's ult heal rate works). Each time Soraka lands Q - Starcall on an enemy champion, a small burst of heal within the zone (equivalent of two ticks) occurs.

This might require a small rework of Q, so that the Soraka will be more rewarded for landing it. Possibly extending the duration of W instead of a bursty heal?

Honestly, I thought of something like this for a Sona rework concept, myself, where her skills would drop lingering aoes with varied effects rather than being auto-targeted. I'm a fan of the idea of dropping healing zones to keep a fight in, rather than spamming a heal on top of someone over and over. It's be cool to see that put on Sona or Soraka.

(R) Wish - Lowered instantaneous heal. Slightly lowered cooldown. Soraka is able to channel for up to 2 seconds, enlargening her heal the longer it is channeled for.

The effectiveness over time and reduced "burst" of her heals would allow more time to both counteract her heals (forcing them out of her heal zone, cc-ing her during ult channel) and in return, would allow more power to be afforded to Soraka.

I like this idea as well. It'd reward someone that had their eyes on the map over someone that barely noticed something going on.

These are all only ideas though. (/o3o)/

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

CeolOct 9, 20171 votes

I agree that having all of those ultimates (although, they would be up more often and less powerful than a regular ult) may be a bit convoluted. Would be fun to have that much versatility though. Maybe she could be a form changer, swapping between treble (buffing/defensive) and bass (debuffing/offensive). Though, that would likely increase the issue of her skills not having enough "oomph", as individual abilities are weakened in form changers.

Perhaps, we could devise a skill set for Sona - one that includes cc in her non-ultimate kit so she doesn't just exist as a walking stat-ball.

Q - Dissonance Sona flicks her hand across the Etwahl, unleashing a linear shock wave, dealing X damage, knocking enemies to the side and slowing by X% decaying over 1 second.

W - Hymn of protection Sona plays a soft melody, shielding an ally of her choosing for X + X %hp (of the target) for 3 seconds. If the shield is not broken, any leftover shield is converted into a heal.

E - Battle Trance Sona unleashes energy from her Etwahl in a cone, granting allies a burst of speed decaying over 3 seconds. If enemy champions are hit by this ability, they are blown back a short distance and slowed by X% for 1 second.

R - Double Treble The last two spells used by Sona can be combined as an enhanced version.

Q+W/W+Q - The linear shock wave also applies the shield to allies struck.

Q+E/E+Q - The cone now deals X damage and roots all targets for X seconds.

W+E/E+W - Places a larger shield on an ally, scaling with their bonus health % and granting them a speed boost decaying over 3 seconds.

chipndip1Oct 9, 20171 votes

I actually made an entire rework concept that I added a link to. I do like your version of "Hymn of Protection" though. A shield that converts into a heal if it isn't broken.

DorkunedAurasOct 23, 20171 votes

Wait, isn't a shield that converts into a heal just a heal that might be able to circumvent GW? If Sona presses W on her ADC in lane while nothing is happening, the ADC gets a heal.

Subject 5Oct 8, 20172 votes

I don't think they need reworks, ADC's just need to step out of the spotlight for once in their lifetime. Ardent is around . . . yeah . . . is that the enchanters fault? No.

Bitch - Zed can do a combo for 3k damage - Twitch opens up with 3K damage in AOE lifesteal / carpet bomb. Fuck ADC's.

AFilthyCaitMainOct 8, 20172 votes

A. item 3070 Karma

B. Shes probably the most mechanical out of them all (If you play her right)

chipndip1Oct 8, 20173 votes

I'd give that to Nami, but it's a decent second.

ClementineOct 8, 20172 votes

Soraka and Sona have seen 0 games in Worlds I'm pretty sure. They're not problems

And as a d5 support main (the meme), I wouldn't change anything about them besides maybe making Lulu's Poly a skillshot or something. There's nothing to change without completely altering the entire role of enchantresses.

If I would make a change, I would take away power from support item passives and putting more power into actives (i.e item 3222 ). I think almost every support item should be an active since that's kind of their thing.

Make the items less valuable, and the champ more valuable.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=CLG Soraka,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OWnEYd6z,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-08T04:33:23.379+0000)

and have seen 0 games in Worlds I'm pretty sure. They're not problems

Actually, they're HUGE balancing problems. How can they be the top win rate solo queue champs for months now and not have a single lick of pro play viability? That shows a huge imbalance in their kit design of the worst kind, if anything.

And as a d5 support main (the meme), I wouldn't change anything about them besides maybe making Lulu's Poly a skillshot or something. There's nothing to change without completely altering the entire role of enchantresses.

That's fine. Riot said they most likely need to make a pass on enchanter game-play, anyway.

If I would make a change, I would take away power from support item passives and putting more power into actives (i.e ). I think almost every support item should be an active since that's kind of their thing.

That'll eventually lead to an obnoxious amount of buttons to worry about if you ask me.

Make the items less valuable, and the champ more valuable.

Then they go mid...

ClementineOct 8, 20171 votes

Lots of champs have high winrates in Solo Queue and are not played in competitive often ( Singed , Sion , Talon , Kayle , Rengar , Malzahar , DrMundo , Karthus , TwistedFate , Katarina , and the list goes on). That doesn't mean they're "HUGE balancing problems.

If you can't use item actives correctly, then the support role isn't for you.

You can't leave support's kits relatively useless to the items they buy. That's what's unbalanced.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=CLG Soraka,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OWnEYd6z,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-10-08T20:25:37.628+0000)

Lots of champs have high winrates in Solo Queue and are not played in competitive often (, , , , , , , , , , and the list goes on). That doesn't mean they're "HUGE balancing problems.

And most, if not all, of these champions are champs that could use work as well. Kayle's got the same issue Sona has where she just cheeses through disorganization. Assassins in general need general aid in this regard. Mundo's not even good in solo queue. Singed is an anomaly at this point. Malz actually does catch occasional pro play (not often but occasional). TF is ridiculous with that auto-targeted stun and roaming pressure to the point where they can't really do much with him or he's just everywhere. I mean, none of this changes the point that, based on where the game's going in future seasons and all, champion designs shouldn't promote a massive disparity between solo queue and organized play success.

If you can't use item actives correctly, then the support role isn't for you.

Using them correctly and not having 3 foot long fingers to reach from the left side of my keyboard to the upper middle to hit the number 7 are two different things.

You can't leave support's kits relatively useless to the items they buy. That's what's unbalanced.

That's fair, but you don't need every item ever to be an active to change this.

ClementineOct 8, 20171 votes

You can set up binds on your mouse lol, every class needs skill expression.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

And skill expression for a class of champions shouldn't be based on item actives more than it should be the champs in question, should it not?

So why are you so afraid to change up the actual problem champs more than you are to change up their items so they have their four spells and a ton of actives to worry about? Doing that doesn't address the counter-play or lack-there-of to what they do, anyway, so what's gained?

Teridax68Oct 8, 20172 votes

I've been waiting for a thread like this. Wall of text initiate!

In my comments I'm going to be proposing reworks to each of these champions (besides Sona, who I'm not sure of yet), but I also want to explain my rationale: I think enchanters need counterplay, but that counterplay does not need to be added purely through skillshots or delays. Perhaps that might work in some cases, but enchanters need to be responsive and properly reactive if they are to feel good to play, as otherwise they lose the ability to perform clutch saves. What they need are hits to their persistent power, and counterplay that happens after an effect has been applied, rather than before. This can happen by giving abilities conditions under which they can fail, and double-edged effects with upsides and downsides. The former would allow for abilities that maintain a degree of reliability when applied, while still having clearer success/failure cases that opponents can influence, and the latter would allow for effects that could be significantly stronger and more versatile, while giving more options to the opponent, not less.

As a side note, one change I think could apply to many champions not meant to deal much damage, beyond just enchanters, is to shift their damage away from their abilities and onto their basic attacks: on enchanters, this would allow them to trade better earlier on, and not accidentally take CS, while forcing them to get up close in order to trade, and preventing them from dealing any significant damage later on (not that it's a problem on them for the moment). By concentrating their damage into a single source, it could allow their damage to feel strong, without actually being strong.

#Janna:

Current problems: power's a bit too persistent, often lacking in high moments in-between ults and charged Qs.
General idea: preserve her identity as the queen of peel, make that peeling power more focused on dodging and kiting, rather than facetanking.
Stats: increase her base AD, increase her attack speed growth significantly, remove the damage from both her Q and W.
Q: base knockup significantly reduced, ramps up faster, so that at maximum charge it goes farther and knocks up for longer.
Innate: no longer grants on-hit damage, passive now only activates at low health, but provides significantly increased movement speed.
Rework W: casting now creates a directional draft that lasts a few seconds and continually pushes all units, allied or enemy, down its path. This does not interrupt their movement or other actions, however.
E: Shield nerfed so that it only gives a minor amount of protection, no longer gives bonus AD, now instead makes the target float on a cloud while the shield holds, which allows them to move while attacking.

#Lulu:

Current problems: too reliable, too defensive for what's supposed to be a hybrid between enchanter and autoattack-heavy mage, defensive power shuts down melee champions without giving them any options whatsoever.
General idea: emphasize the whimsical and chaotic theme of fae magic, establish more of a balance between her offensive and defensive power.
Stats: increase her attack speed growth slightly, remove the damage from her Q and E.
Innate: Lulu no longer autoattacks normally and instead always attacks through Pix. Pix damage and scaling significantly increased to match, and now has his own independent sight radius.
Rework W: now always polymorphs the target, ally or enemy, but instead of slowing them, gives them massive bonus movement speed for the duration.
Rework E: now sends Pix to the target area as a skillshot, where he stays for a few seconds. Lulu can command Pix to autoattack from his location, and Pix will stick to the first unit he hits while travelling, ally or enemy (if he sticks to an allied champion, Lulu still has command over him, not the ally). Recasting E recalls Pix to Lulu, and Pix can also be swatted back to Lulu if he takes enough hits.

#Soraka:

Current problems: healing feels too cheap, playstyle's not risky enough for what her healing engine expects of her, Rejuvenation effect is boring and makes her better when playing more passively, which is exactly what she shouldn't be doing.
General idea: bring her back to a state where she pays a cost to heal, and needs to put herself at risk in order to keep on healing.
Stats: increase her base attack damage and growth, remove the damage from her Q and E, reduce the range on Q and E significantly.
Q: no longer grants Rejuvenation, instead heals Soraka instantly for a certain amount for every enemy champion hit by the ability, increased based on her missing health.
W: base heal now scales with level, so that it ramps up slower from levels 1 to 9 but otherwise leaves Soraka's total healing at similar amounts. Cost changed to 20% maximum health at rank 1, goes down to 10% max health at rank 5. Mana cost reduced/removed.

#Sona:

Current problems: kit feels spammy, individual abilities feel weak and boring, power is diluted across a vast number of effects.
General idea: concentrate different parts of her power into individual, much stronger effects, make her auras more interactive for both allies and enemies.

(No clear idea on how to change Sona beyond this though)

I could probably go harder on the changes to each individual champion here, but the idea is to at least orient them towards a better direction, rather than each give them a full VGU's worth of changes (which I don't think they need, either). Ideally, these champions could have potentially even more impactful and versatile kits, and would be able to synergize with a much wider variety of champions, but would be forced to put themselves at risk to be a real threat, and wouldn't be able to protect their allies as cheaply or as overbearingly.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I've been waiting for a thread like this. Wall of text initiate!

#Janna:

Well, if you remove the whole "Bonus damage" thing Riot added, aren't you removing Janna's AA damage like you proposed? It's fine by me because I loathe the thought of squishy mage champs having significant amounts of their power tied to AAs, but it's contradictory.

I dislike the idea of punishing her base Q because her base Q's knock-up is already really damn short. Also, I dislike the idea of floating on a cloud on E because that seems really ridiculous to code in the game or work with while playing (to randomly start sliding around while fighting). However her W being changed to a non-targeted aoe that deals damage and puts out a movement speed increasing draft is quite nice, and it's something we lost with old Galio, so it could see its return on Janna (and it'd actually fit the theme). I like the W idea here.

#Lulu:

Turning an ally into an animal doesn't sound the worst, but if Lulu loses her ability to shield, she'd be a poor fit for supporting in general. It seems a bit "weird" to put it like that, but that's sort of a unifying theme for enchanters at this point (sustain options, while catchers have play-making options). She'd lose synergy with Enchanter itemization and her laning would lose favor to any enchanters that do have shields or heals, hence why you rarely see Zilean support...ever at this point, honestly (even pros play him mid instead). Also, having Pix freely AA me from way out yonder while I can't hit Lulu sounds insufferable.

#Soraka:

Isn't this just a revert and a nerf slapped together? I think Soraka needs more fundamental changes than just a revert and a nerf, but I personally don't have the biggest, grandest ideas for any champ save Sona, myself. Still, a guy I responded to above had a few good Soraka ideas.

Teridax68Oct 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well, if you remove the whole "Bonus damage" thing Riot added, aren't you removing Janna's AA damage like you proposed?

As I posted in my suggested stat changes for Janna:

{quoted}

Stats: increase her base AD, increase her attack speed growth significantly, remove the damage from both her Q and W.

Which should be balanced to emulate her current on-hit damage without having to create an entire new passive around it.

{quoted}

I dislike the idea of punishing her base Q because her base Q's knock-up is already really damn short.

0.5 seconds is not all that short for a knockup, particularly one that is very easy to land. Having a reliable dash interrupt is fine, having an ability that essentially auto-prevents champions from chasing is not.

{quoted}

Also, I dislike the idea of floating on a cloud on E because that seems really ridiculous to code in the game or work with while playing (to randomly start sliding around while fighting).

There's nothing random to the effect, though, and there is much more "ridiculous" stuff in the game. Being able to move while autoattacking is a very big advantage, and is a kiter's dream.

{quoted}

I like the W idea here.

Thank you. :)

{quoted}

Turning an ally into an animal doesn't sound the worst, but if Lulu loses her ability to shield, she'd be a poor fit for supporting in general.

Being able to provide major utility, vision, crowd control and a life-saving ult (which itself functions like a shield already) I don't think can really be described as "a poor fit for supporting", particularly when we have supports like Zyra who do not interact at all with allies.

{quoted}

It seems a bit "weird" to put it like that, but that's sort of a unifying theme for enchanters at this point (sustain options, while catchers have play-making options).

There are many defining features for enchanters, namely extreme reliability, an excessive focus on defenses rather than general play enabling, and a lack of counterplay, that all are a unifying theme for them at this point, yet here we are addressing them. Isn't this why you created this thread in the first place?

{quoted}

She'd lose synergy with Enchanter itemization

She'd have plenty of other itemization options, though, including AP support itemization. Just because she or Zilean can't abuse Ardent Censer doesn't mean every support needs to have their design completely distorted by that item.

{quoted}

Also, having Pix freely AA me from way out yonder while I can't hit Lulu sounds insufferable.

Pix's autoattacks are blocked by the first enemy hit even now, Pix himself would stick to the first unit hit with the above E, and hitting him would sent him away. There are multiple forms of counterplay to this kind of effect.

{quoted}

Isn't this just a revert and a nerf slapped together?

It would be a nerf if every number were locked in, which I didn't do, so no, it's not a nerf, even if it is a partial revert.

IxtaliKingOct 8, 20172 votes

Personally I think Enchanters as a whole need more rewarding/skilful elements:

Janna - For Janna firstly I would move her entire W over to her passive: every 8 seconds an air elemental will follow her auto attack dealing bonus magic damage and slowing the enemy (scaling with level, MS and/or AP). This passive could have it's cool down reduced by auto attacking to encourage/reward more interaction with the enemy, particularly in lane.

Secondly I would give her an entirely new W: Downdraft, after a brief (0.5s?) delay Janna creates localized wind zone around her hasting allies by 30% (+ her passive bonus) and dealing 80/120/160/200/240 + (0.4 AP) magic damage over 4 seconds, grounding and slowing enemies in the zone by 30% (+ per passive bonus). This spell would be a 400 (perhaps 450) unit point blank AoE ability and which would remain where casted. Gives her a versatile peeling and team fighting tool with skill expression, which encourages her to take risks with her positioning for greater benefits.

Lulu - Lulu is a tough one, her polymorph seems to be the most frustrating things to players from what I've seen, but it's also pretty core to her. I would probably go the route of removing the upfront damage from her E and swapping it for some kind of debuff, then allowing both bolts of her Q deal damage with second bolt dealing less, of course.

Sona - Sona is another tough one, but I'd encourage people to check out the "invoker" Sona rework suggestion.

Soraka - For Soraka, I'd honestly just give her back her old reworked Q which dealt bonus damage and slow to enemies caught in its centre. Perhaps even let it refresh the CD on her heal if she catches the enemy in the centre of her Q, or something else which rewards interaction. Not that Soraka's kit doesn't currently require interaction, but rather it should be done in a way which is less annoying to deal with by requiring more risk and skill of the Soraka player.

NymzoOct 8, 20171 votes

A niche role for each of them, I don't have many ideas for each of them but here's a few (keep in mind that some could be bad ideas).

Soraka is the only one who can heal, heal is reduced if your ally has lifesteal, unaffected by griveous wound, require constant q hit to be an effective healer.

Nami is now a niche buff enchanter. She can no longer heal but offers better buffs, w now gives a buff to ally.

Janna has now a special niche: instead of buffing or protecting allies, she should use her power of the wind to keep enemies at bay. E is reworked into something else than a shield, ult has way less cd but can no longer heal.

Lulu should have more special synergy with Pix. But maybe something like Taric W?.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

A niche role for each of them, I don't have many ideas for each of them but here's a few (keep in mind that some could be bad ideas).

is the only one who can heal, heal is reduced if your ally has lifesteal, unaffected by griveous wound, require constant q hit to be an effective healer.

If she should be the best at healing, the healing of other enchanters should be pushed down some (...so Sona's), but there's no reason for every enchanter to shield instead of heal.

is now a niche buff enchanter. She can no longer heal but offers better buffs, w now gives a buff to ally.

I left Nami out of it since Nami doesn't share the issue every other enchanter has.

has now a special niche: instead of buffing or protecting allies, she should use her power of the wind to keep enemies at bay. E is reworked into something else than a shield, ult has way less cd but can no longer heal.

Her kit as is already accomplishes much of this. Also, the unifying trait between enchanters is shielding/healing, otherwise Janna wouldn't synergize with enchanter-specific itemization, so you can't remove the shield on E.

should have more special synergy with Pix. But maybe something like Taric W?.

That doesn't address not being able to counter-play almost her entire kit. The reason why Taric is a healthier champ is because, along with the W shield that links him to allies, he has avoidable spells and abusable delays on his E and R. His Q requires active participation to spam at decent power. In Lulu's case, she's pretty fire and forget, and a Taric-like mechanic won't change that on its own.

NymzoOct 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If she should be the best at healing, the healing of other enchanters should be pushed down some (...so Sona's), but there's no reason for every enchanter to shield instead of heal.

Actually... there's only one who should also shield (I had Karma in mind but maybe Sona instead with her music?)

Also when I said Soraka is the one that can heal, I really meant it.

I know it seems scary but that's the whole point, to make them different from each other. It shouldn't be : ''Do I want Soraka or Nami or Janna as a healer?'', it should be : ''Do I want a enchanter that heal for this situation or a shield or do I want someone to buff or to prevent them from even reaching us.''

Her kit as is already accomplishes much of this. Also, the unifying trait between enchanters is shielding/healing, otherwise Janna wouldn't synergize with enchanter-specific itemization, so you can't remove the shield on E.

Not really. I still believe her q could be replace about something cooler and practical. The charge part is still not very useful outside if you know where the enemies are already going.

And Zephyr is... useful but I'm sure we could work on it.

Btw, I also believe we should work on forbidden idol. It's not that well designed in my opinion hel lthe whole items for Enchanters aside for Mickael aren't either.

That doesn't address not being able to counter-play almost her entire kit.

For Polymorph? I had an idea of mixing her q and w together, but she would need to hit both to trigger the polymorph.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Actually... there's only one who should also shield (I had Karma in mind but maybe Sona instead with her music?)

Also when I said Soraka is the one that can heal, I really meant it.

I know it seems scary but that's the whole point, to make them different from each other. It shouldn't be : ''Do I want Soraka or Nami or Janna as a healer?'', it should be : ''Do I want a enchanter that heal for this situation or a shield or do I want someone to buff or to prevent them from even reaching us.''

Yes, but then you run into the issue of "Itemization doesn't appeal to me as a champ anymore since I offer nothing that itemization tailors to". You'd have to entirely scrap the shield/heal bonuses, and whoever had the sustain options in lane would be way better than the enchanters that don't on top of enchanters that had sustain suddenly being beaten out by Relic Shield supports that magically have more sustain in lane than them at that point for whatever reason.

It has good intentions, but the ramifications of that are something the game's not tooled for. A better response would be to do it like Rakan and have the sustain options be a bit more of a side thing than the main attraction of that champ.

Not really. I still believe her q could be replace about something cooler and practical. The charge part is still not very useful outside if you know where the enemies are already going.

And Zephyr is... useful but I'm sure we could work on it.

I mean, yes, really. On engage, her kit is predictable and exploitable. On defense, her kit is extremely hard to get around. We're seeing that in this year's Worlds right now, along with Lulu...again, because their defenses are extremely hard to get over.

Btw, I also believe we should work on forbidden idol. It's not that well designed in my opinion hel lthe whole items for Enchanters aside for Mickael aren't either.

For Polymorph? I had an idea of mixing her q and w together, but she would need to hit both to trigger the polymorph.

That'd be a long cd for Glitterlance, and you'd have to replace her W with something brand new, but I wouldn't mind her polymorph being turned into something like "A skillshot that changes the first champ hit and slows champs behind them" with each Glitterlance skill shot having its own chance to polymorph a champ.

NymzoOct 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but then you run into the issue of "Itemization doesn't appeal to me as a champ anymore since I offer nothing that itemization tailors to". You'd have to entirely scrap the shield/heal bonuses, and whoever had the sustain options in lane would be way better than the enchanters that don't on top of enchanters that had sustain suddenly being beaten out by Relic Shield supports that magically have more sustain in lane than them at that point for whatever reason.

I mean... remember before any of that bonus heal and shield came out? The enchanters could still work, maybe not as incredible as today mind you but eh.

Giving more power in their kit and less into their kit is the only way to make sure they don't either become too strong or too weak. And remember that the other 2 classes don't need to rush any specific items to make their kit work proprely.

It has good intentions, but the ramifications of that are something the game's not tooled for. A better response would be to do it like Rakan and have the sustain options be a bit more of a side thing than the main attraction of that champ.

Yea, asking for niche champions is kinda risky in a game when only the best shine. But Rakan is a catcher, it's the only reason why he has a weak heal. I wouldn't mind that for enchanters but I stil them having a niche would be better.

I mean, yes, really. On engage, her kit is predictable and exploitable. On defense, her kit is extremely hard to get around.

Because only one spell is a skillshot... you can't stop or dodge the w, the e or even the ult in any way. For me, Janna should be really bad againt long range opponents like burst mage but very really good and team comps with a LOT of melees.

We're seeing that in this year's Worlds right now, along with Lulu...again, because their defenses are extremely hard to get over.

I'm not sure if usng World is a good example considaring it's Ardent Censer simulator.

That'd be a long cd for Glitterlance, and you'd have to replace her W with something brand new, but I wouldn't mind her polymorph being turned into something like "A skillshot that changes the first champ hit and slows champs behind them" with each Glitterlance skill shot having its own chance to polymorph a champ.

I can agree on that.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I mean... remember before any of that bonus heal and shield came out? The enchanters could still work, maybe not as incredible as today mind you but eh.

Before heal/shield came out, I was an advocate of making more support items with ap on them. I got shot down, so I doubt people want to go that route.

Giving more power in their kit and less into their kit is the only way to make sure they don't either become too strong or too weak. And remember that the other 2 classes don't need to rush any specific items to make their kit work proprely.

The reason why Enchanters HAVE to rush Censer is because they're basically item slots. Enchanters have long had an issue of being ruled by their itemization over anything else. I think addressing their game play would be a great fix to that, but Ardent may or may not need more tweaking on top of that. I wouldn't know for certain since Worlds is using an out-dated Censer.

Yea, asking for niche champions is kinda risky in a game when only the best shine. But Rakan is a catcher, it's the only reason why he has a weak heal. I wouldn't mind that for enchanters but I stil them having a niche would be better.

Niche isn't the issue. The issue is that it'd be too niche. Think of it like this:

Rakan: Squishy catcher who flings himself into enemies that's good at cc'ing whole groups at a time.

Blitz: Relatively tanky catcher who brings key targets into the mosh pit from safety.

Thresh: Relatively tanky catcher with a myriad of both offensive and defensive options, although he's not too great at influencing more than 1-2 targets at a time.

Bard: Squishy catcher that can heal allies and create unique plays through tunnels and casting stasis.

General theme of holding opponents down to be cleaned up is the same, but it's different for each catcher. Enchanters are unified as a group through shielding/healing options. You can make separate niches for them within that realm without spreading them to the four corners. The reason we only see Janna and Lulu in competitive is because Soraka and Sona's gameplay are currently nothing more than solo queue cheese, anyhow.

Because only one spell is a skillshot... you can't stop or dodge the w, the e or even the ult in any way. For me, Janna should be really bad against long range opponents like burst mage but very really good and team comps with a LOT of melees.

Fine, but I imagine you could do that by altering her ult more than her Q.

I'm not sure if usng World is a good example considaring it's Ardent Censer simulator.

Censer's sort of beside the point but duly noted regardless. I mean, this happened before with Lulu during the Locket/Redemption Rodeo. Happening again with the Censer Simulator 4000. Something more at the core of the champ itself should be looked at, not just Censer, imo.

Athenes LuluOct 8, 20171 votes

Less spammage, more timing and decision making.

If you misuse every single of spells you should be punished for doing so, but it's not the case since items are still pretty darn busted.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20171 votes

Any idea as to how for any of those champs?

Athenes LuluOct 10, 20171 votes

I would consider reworking Lulu's E and a little work on her R. Right now, people get away for spamming shields on their ADCs 24/7 and use ult for strictly heals, which we sure as hell know that shit's uninteractive and undecisive. Lulu's ult should be empowering things and make shit look scarier than before (like turning any assassin, diver, or bruiser into a tank), not just a secondary saving tool.

As mentioned on a thread I made a few weeks ago, her bonus hp (or "heal") value can scale off the target's max or current HP. In short, tankier things gain more HP upon ulting, while things that aren't tanky don't get much bonus hp. Yes, in this meta where tanks are strong, it will made Lulu stronger, but once tanks are out of the meta, it will be much more relevant. The main purpose of that change is so people don't just autobind everything onto their ADCs, do absolutely nothing else, and expect results.

For her E, it is now an AoE skillshot, kinda like how Orianna's Q works except Pix does return (or not, this can go several ways). Enemies who walk into the zone will be revealed and take DoT damage as they're in Pix's zone. Same as before, people can still position and fire glitterlance from there. This can be used as a very good tool to run away from ganks especially from stealth champions, or deal with stealth during combat, like against Twitch, Akali, Shaco, Evelynn, Wukong, etc. Don't worry, Pix won't slow anyone in the zone, we still have Lulu's Q to do that anyways.

Pix's interaction with allies can work several ways. The entire zone can either be an AoE shield (so Lulu can actually proc Windspeaker's on more than one person, though needs tuning on the actual shield values obviously), and Pix won't move. Pix will either attack on his own like Swain's Q (I think that's what his AoE bird thing does), or auto whenever Lulu autos. If Pix were to be automated, then he could also attack based on whoever has the highest attack speed in the zone.

If we were to keep with the AoE shield direction, this could make Lulu jungle more viable since she gets bonus waveclear plus a shield for herself.

Of course all of this is tentative, but definitely adds more decision-making and timing to Lulu's kit. If we already have a "Lee Sin support" which is pretty much Rakan, then having a "Zed support" as Lulu sounds like a fun idea to have. This can also fulfill the idea of being THE "fairy summoner" where you and your fairy duo team up to make magic work, while adding more decision making to her kit.

Maybe I can try to think of solutions for the other enchanters sometime later.