These two items are not over-centralizing or overpowered in the support role. They're perfectly fine. Support itemization is solid.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/012/Screen_Shot_2015-05-12_at_3.31.31_PM.png
Chaos Milk Tea14 voteslol. Let support have this. Let them have one cool thing.
chipndip119 votesThese items aren't even that fun. Why are people so adamant about having these items be overpowered?
Why not make better support items as a whole so we can have balanced support itemization, THEN nerf these over-centralizing buyable ults?
Ariel the Cruel4 votesWhy are people so adamant about having these items be overpowered?
Because laners haven't gotten them gutted yet. (>_>)
Why not make better support items as a whole so we can have balanced support itemization
Because, generally speaking, supports can't have strong items. Their income is too low; mandating very high efficiency. The only thing support itemization that can do well is selfless actives. When ever stats approach "decent" (not just "efficient"), solo laners break them.
The bigger problem is the support role its self. Until Riot fixes the underlying problems inherent to the system - Support itemization will always be stuck in this loop.
Ahristocats61 votescool thing?
because playing support and being forced to build those 2 mother fucking items is INDEED NOT cool heck, all support items suck hard and are very poorly thought
not a single cool support item compared to dota2
sincerly a support main
Ralanr19 votesIdk, redemption feels pretty cool. Locket not so much.
Ahristocats3 voteshow is redemtpion anyhow cool?
delayed aoe heal, like fuck off healing and shielding is not the only thing that supports do
wanna take a look at dota2 support items? Yes they have an AOE heal item, but it costs 6000 gold and supports cannot buy it (generally bought by tanks) They have force staff, make a unit (enemy or ally) dash They have a lifesteal aura item They have an item removing CC from an ally but doesn't suck like mikael and don't have 120 sec cd
Take a look at Lotus Orb
The Last Ballad15 votesZeke's Harbringer(or whatever it was called) used to have the lifesteal aura...
blueberrypancake2 votesI loved it on old Karma so much.
AOE shields plus aura meant that they could just stay alive until you ran out of mana
ForeverLaxx1 votesDid you just say Mek costs 6k gold? Because you're wrong.
Ahristocats1 votesGuardian grave
Atanchan2 votes... You mean the item made out of a 2.4k gold support item and a 1.3k gold support boots, tossed together by a 1.7k recipe for all the benefits and more?
On an item that is still boots?
Like, seriously, it is a wonky thing to rush, but it naturally fits into any support that wants both Mek and Arcanes, which is quite a few of them.
Ahristocats1 votes[deleted]
Atanchan2 votes... It heals more than a level 1 Hand of God, level 3 Purification, or a level 4 Shadow Wave, and the same amount as a level 4 Mist Coil or Level 3 Press the Attack, in an 900 AoE with no unit limit, with an added long-lasting +2 armor buff.
Hand of God is a great comparison, by the way. It has a far longer cooldown, only a slightly lower mana cost at level 1 but a higher one at any other level, can't heal units that aren't either ally heroes or your entourage, does nothing else but heal, and has a cast point. Sure, once you get at level 12, it heals more, and it completely heals your entourage and has global range regardless, but it doesn't have nearly the utility for sustaining pushes that Mek does unless you're pushing entirely with your entourage.
Not to mention, there's kinda a reason why you can combine it with Arcanes - even if your Mek holder has interest in other boots, you're usually going to get a cheap mana item or two with your Mek, like Soul Ring. Which you still come out with a health profit if you pop it to get the mana to pop Mek.
So, uh, yeah. Mek is pretty damn good, unless you're dying so much that you can't get it before minute 30 or something.
Erockandroll43 votesIdk, redemption feels pretty cool. Locket not so much.
I mean what isn't cool about a Giant Healling Nuke fired from orbit, even while you are dead?
The real issue that people have with those items is the fact that they are must buy compared to the other items. But as others have pointed out. Support itemization is Garbage.
I think those two items are fine as is. Rather they should be the bar where other support items are compared to.
PeepingPeafowl3 votesI still don't get why a huge range Mass AoE heal with true damage that can totally turn around a team fight has a cool down of 120 seconds and an item that boosts a single minion to be more powerful has a cool down of... a 120 seconds!?!?!?
What? Why!?
same goes for Mikaels
Nymzo2 votesWhat?
I agree that Riot fucked up massively on 
, but why are you even saying on 
and 
?
I didn't see these items since the introduction of both and 
.
Banner is like not worth to spot and the money, and the heal on Mikael got removed.
Silverjust8 votesI think what he wantedto say is that and are underpowered compared
to and
this items should be equaly usefull
PeepingPeafowl2 votesThis is exactly what I meant, its crazy to think that banners cooldown is 120 seconds when a WAAYYY better item also has that cool down. It should be lower.
Silverjust2 votesor a better Item
ZT Xperimentor1 votesCough
One to three wasted slots that are deemed mandatory by meta-maniacs.
The Last Ballad9 votesControl wards are not a support item, as every class are suppose to buy one, and it isn't that exciting to use...
The rest of that list is sightstone and it's children, which is mandatory to build, or a gold gen item, which is also mandatory. And 6 of the 10 items you showed are warding items, which while necessary, don't add exciting gameplay, as they are just yellow trinkets on steroids. The only choices that are present in that list are
a) am I a tank?(
) am I a poke support?(
) am I a passive, babysitting support? (
) And these "choices" are made in champ select. Sure there is some choice for the likes of Lulu, or if a passive support is against a melee support, but generally you go by those points.
b) Do I want 20% item active cdr for 1 less item space? Yes -> go +//. No -> Eye of the _
In other words, most "ideal" support builds either look like
(gold gen item of choice) (boots) with one item to build for the enemy team
or
(eye of the _) (Boots) which you get two items, but without 20% cdr for Redemption/Locket
With the first being more preferable due to the 20% cdr making the active cooldown of at least 3 different items shorter, two of which are great to use in teamfights.
But the forced 4 - 5 item builds are dreadful for the support role. What happens if you are Soraka, against a morgana, with 2-3 auto attack centered teammates? 
would work better for your teammates, and is necessary to give your allies a fighting chance when snared by morg. Yet, if you build around your team and the enemies, you are gimping your team by either delaying Locket/Redemption, or omitting it from your build completely. That isn't a meaningful choice, as there is no payoff for deviating from the set path.
The worst part is, these items give tanky stats, which means that any type of support can use them. With Face of the mountain, the cookiecutter build gives 1250 health, 30 ar, 60 mr, 175% hp/5, 20% cdr, 125% mp/5.
Frost queens gives 800 health, 30 ar, 60 mr, 75% hp/5, 20% cdr, 200% mp/5, and 50 ap.
Talisman gives 800 health, 75 ar, 60 mr, 225% hp/5, 20% cdr, and 200% mp/5.
Sure, those don't look too overpowering at first glance, but then they also get a large aoe heal, a rather large shield that lasts the same duration as Redemption's windup, and either two seeking slows, a shield for 10% of their max health, or a mini Sivir ult.
ZT Xperimentor3 votes"Control wards are not a support item, as every class are suppose to buy one" But how often do you see anyone else but the support buying one?
"The rest of that list is sightstone and it's children, which is mandatory to build, or a gold gen item, which is also mandatory." Hence my point of pointing out that there's even more forced items to build simply for playing the position. Hey you guys can build any 6 items you like, except supports, you can only build 3 because you'll have to waste space on these things nobody else wants. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OTAG1f45-pro-play-zyras-can-be-seen-picking-up-redemptionlocket?comment=00000001
Ahristocats4 votes[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OTAG1f45,comment-id=00000001000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-02T19:16:46.011+0000)
But how often do you see anyone else but the support buying one?
everytime?
ZT Xperimentor2 votesI'm referring to frequency, does both the middle & top laner buy one every game? How about the jungler since he roams the most? Ext.
Steelflame1 votesAt anything resembling a high elo? All the fucking time. Often multiple times per game. There are times I'll clear 5-10 control wards in a single game just by myself, not counting the rest that my team cleared at opportune times.
ZT Xperimentor1 votes'High' as in gold, pro, or somewhere in-between? I've seen variation across the board, usually depending on the situation such as team compositions.
Steelflame2 votesusage starts really picking up around the high gold > Low plat range. A lot of it's based on the variance though of the player skill and why they are at the elo range they are at.
If a player is high ranked purely on mechanics, say because they are a 1 trick who has 2k+ games on a single champion, they may suck at knowing how to play the vision game, but sheer raw mechanics make up for it. Meanwhile, a strong generalist who depends more on amplifying his team probably puts far more emphasis on the vision game.
As far as purchasers of pink wards, I'd say that it goes Support>=Jungle>Mid>Top>ADC. It also depends on exactly how that player is playing that role. A tank jungler or objective control jungler is far more likely to buy 3+ pinks than someone playing something like Graves, where odds are the only pink may either be an offensive "hidden" pink (Say in the bush between red buff and top/bot tower, or the bush behind wolves right by mid tower), or a defensive pink like the common behind red buff/beside blue buff pinks.
Itsbeghdev4 votesif only
tXQbsPrjN512 votesMeddler has this warped notion of supporting that if he's made into a second hp bar for the team, the role is in a good place.
Morgan le Fey11 votesOverpowered? No. They just need more friends. They're only overpowered because they're actually good items for supports. The issue isn't ; it's simply other items, or the lack thereof. Of course, on the flip side, part of me is worried that if we get too many good items someone will start complaining if we build anything outside of our 5-6 support items, and then we'll be blasted for abusing 
or tank items or w/e.
Mind, it's not that we need that many more support items. There's a handful of forgotten items that are great for the support role, such as 
, but they're not great enough to be compelling. Problem is, if they're buffed, people will remember they exist, and then someone will have an idea for an off-meta 
build or something similar. First, there'll be mass complaining about how off-build is "cheesy" and "exploits" the game and stuff. Then everyone will complain it's "op" and "rito why you listen to sjw supports" and "revert support rework" and "rito this isn't the same game I played back in the great season 7" and other such nonsense. About a week after the item's been nerfed into the ground, people will figure out how to counter the original build, making it irrelevant anyways, but the items will remain useless in their original role.
I'm oddly bothered by this. Is this how cynics start? >.>
mrgiraffeweevil3 votesExactly, locker and redemption aren't the problem, it's the fact that no other item measures up to them. Riot should buff the other items to keep up with locket and redemption. Zekes, mikaels, knights vow, and chalice should all get buffs.
Ariel the Cruel10 votesContrary to popular belief, supports are item mules for the team. NOT champions.
blueberrypancake5 votesAlthough I understand what you mean it still doesn't change the fact that locket and redemption are really the only top tier options right now for support (arguably ardent on healers)
Clementine5 votesThey're the only two support items that make an actual impact. Besides maybe KV but tank supports suck so it's never bought
StoryDuck4 votesSupports needs items like this. In fact they need more.
LCS supports are radically different from regular players playing support. They are team focused and play-making coordinated on a level that regular players just can't do. LCS support are at a far greater disadvantage then regular supports as well often being behind 2-3 items rather then 1-2 for regular players. They will also frequently be 3-5 levels lower then the laners instead of 1-3. This plays a lot into what they purchase as support. They have to make purchases that have the greatest impact the moment they buy them. Building more AP on a support is really only doable at a lower level of play where as the more cost efficient choices with big activateable abilities have a greater impact upon purchase.
chipndip11 votesSo what we're saying is that these two items are so impactful and important the moment you buy them that, if you aren't low elo, you should prioritize these items even on a high-damage support pick? Given how they're already priority on tank supports and enchanters...THAT'S THE WHOLE ROSTER.
StoryDuck3 votesYou're coming at this issue from the wrong side though, instead of nerfing the items into uselessness or removing them the other support items need to be brought up to their level. These are good items that give impact and feel to playing support we should not take away from that but add to it. The other support items need buffs.
chipndip11 votesNo, YOU'RE coming at this from the wrong side. If we make more items that are as powerful as these two are per cast, the game will be completely ran over by support items.
These two items need nerfs, if not complete removal or reworks. On top of that, other items need to be buffed.
Like, for example,
This item gives some HP/Def, but its main purpose in the game is reducing damage on the carry you link to. The amount it reduces is 12% while you take that damage as true damage, right?
So let's assume I have a Locket, you have a Knight's Vow, we're both trying to save our adcs, who currently have 450 HP a piece, from some ult that's going to do, say, 800 damage. If I activate Locket correctly at level 11, that's a 420 HP shield, giving my adc a small window to live this incoming ult. You, on the other hand, are working with passive damage reduction that only reduces damage by 12%. 800 x .88 = 704. Congratulations...your adc has been slain, but because I was smart enough to get a Locket, mine has a chance to live. To boot, Locket shields everyone in the vicinity. Like, why would I EVER give a rat's ass about Knight's Vow? Who gives a shit about the movement speed when it doesn't do the main thing it needs to do, which is protect a single target, better than this AOE SHIELD?
Like has anyone ever really broken this shit down like this and really realized just how ridiculous support itemization is right now?
StoryDuck2 votesOkay, lets assume you get your wish and every support item you hate is removed. What do you propose would allow support players to feel strong again? Think for a moment, because this is what these items allow supports to do, "Feel Strong". I think what you are finding frustrating is that supports are becoming stronger and getting closer to the power as a solo laner. They are not there yet but every buff to their items, abilities, stats, and options brings them that much closer. The LOL community is bound to start feeling this change and it will be scary, I mean all of a sudden we could have a 5th role that matters as much as all the other roles. That is a HUGE change for LOL. Your numbers do not lie but ask yourself, is this stronger then if those same champions were getting solo lane gold? I find that it is no. They are not. The items are strong with their ability but that doesn't make them solo laners, it just makes them matter.
Leaf on Bush2 votesWhere exactly do you draw the line between overpowered and just usefull or viable?
Hm....
I just realized I could ask is this in almost any thread.
Khadaver2 votesThe fact that you see it every game might be a clue
Leaf on Bush7 votesI see boots in every match on every champion (almost xD) so by your definition boots are overpowered. I think it's not that simple.
chipndip12 votesThey are op. So is vision. So is Flash. I don't think these items share the same relationship as those items, though, thus it'd be nice if they weren't overpowered.
Aakesh3 votes[{quoted}](name=Cancer Cavalier ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OTAG1f45,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-04-02T19:48:08.169+0000)
Where exactly do you draw the line between overpowered and just usefull or viable?
Hm....
I just realized I could ask is this in almost any thread.
Team picks four carry's
Time to play jungle 
and buy and and baby sit the one who does the most damage more or less sums up playing him
Leaf on Bush2 votesI think you replied to me by accident, this clearly isn't relating to what i said.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cancer Cavalier ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OTAG1f45,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-04-02T19:48:08.169+0000)
Where exactly do you draw the line between overpowered and just usefull or viable?
Hm....
I just realized I could ask is this in almost any thread.
Well, when champions who the items weren't really meant for start using them as their core builds, that's a pretty good sign something is wrong.
If you want something more accurate, it's generally when the items become a must have for a very wide pool of champions, who are also supposed to have other viable build paths, but are pretty much forced into buying the item/s.
mrgiraffeweevil2 votesWell why are they forced into buying them? Is it that these items are too OP, or is it that the small amount of other items are too weak. I don't think locket redemption is really op, as it doesn't feel unfair. I think the problem is that supports don't have the same itemization as other roles. They need different items, and at the moment there are few good options. If tanky supp items and mate supp items got buffs, I don't think redemption and locket would be as common as it is. I don't like building redemption on thresh or Braum, but I don't want to see it nerfed, because it isn't op. Instead, buff the other options that other roles can't abuse.
Leaf on Bush2 votesThey were meant for supports and bought by supports. The item is not must have just because pro play zyra used it. They probably just needed it for certain plays and situations, meanwhile in soloQ you are way more versatile if you just build something like rylais, that doesn't require your team to perform at pro level to actaully be worth.
Locket was always used in pro play, but a lot less in soloQ. Old Locket season 5 worlds, used all the time. Redemption is used for the same reason.
There is nothing OP about it, you trade damage or whatever you wanted buy, for that low duration shield. If you time the active wrong because your team does unexpected things, it's wasted gold.
I only get locket for soloQ if the enemies have some big AoE, otherwise it is a lot less likely that everyone on your team takes damage at the same time and still uses the shield to win a fight as opposed to just running away.
PS: not just win any fight, but also a fight that results in you taking important objectives.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cancer Cavalier ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OTAG1f45,comment-id=000400030001,timestamp=2017-04-03T06:37:33.367+0000)
They were meant for supports and bought by supports.
I don't get it, why is it so hard for people to understand that support the role and support the class are two separate things, which have nothing to do with each other outside of high correlation?
I'm so tired of this willful stupidity, I could ask you why is Ivern using them then, you'd say he's a support, but he's a support class-wise, not role-wise(he's a jungler), zyra is a support role-wise, NOT class-wise, these items were NOT meant for her. You're perfectly aware that these two are different things, with entirely different implications, you just choose to ignore it and I don't even know why.
Do we really need riot to change support to "the other guy who goes bot lane" or something, same as they did with adcs and marksmen? I get it that they are trying to make it easier for new players to understand the game, but don't you think you've played this game long enough to stop obsessing over frigging tags?
The item is not must have just because pro play zyra used it. They probably just needed it for certain plays and situations, meanwhile in soloQ you are way more versatile if you just build something like rylais, that doesn't require your team to perform at pro level to actaully be worth.
Again with the competitive black magicks. Lack of understanding doesn't add any insight, just because you think this is something that works differently in competitive(cause reasons, right?) doesn't make it so, in fact things rarely do.
Locket was always used in pro play, but a lot less in soloQ.
Running down mid is never done in competitive, and often in soloQ, doesn't make it a good soloQ strat. People do stupid shit, doesn't mean it's effective.
There is nothing OP about it, you trade damage or whatever you wanted buy, for that low duration shield. If you time the active wrong because your team does unexpected things, it's wasted gold.
I only get locket for soloQ if the enemies have some big AoE, otherwise it is a lot less likely that everyone on your team takes damage at the same time and still uses the shield to win a fight as opposed to just running away.
PS: not just win any fight, but also a fight that results in you taking important objectives.
Meanwhile any good support player in high elo gets them 100% of the time(not always on zyra/malz though), but I guess that's cause of "high elo black magicks" right? You're just bad, stop making excuses as to why being bad is good.
Leaf on Bush2 votesMeanwhile any good support player in high elo gets them 100% of the time **(not always on zyra/malz though) **
funny
You're just bad, stop making excuses as to why being bad is good.
And this is how you disqualify yourself.
