...I don't understand you people when it comes to balancing a certain champion...

4NoxiousHours·Jan 1, 2015·69 votes·4,966 views

...For example, lets say someone mentions about Zyra in a thread asking if she's good or not, more than half of replys will be people saying " she's terrible after her nerfs now she's only useful for support now sometimes" something like that or similar to that. " Her plants are easy to kill " "Shes Squishy AF" " It's easy to catch her and one shot her late game" " Riot nerf'd her kit so bad she needs a rework"

Then someone post a thread in this section asking riot to buff Zyra, Suddenly a whole army of people disagree with threatening down votes and type long ass paragraphs with math in it on how Zyra is OP or is strong. " Her snares " " Her Utility " " Her plants hurt " "lol she doesn't need a buff shes fine the way she is, im a zyra main "

:l...

116 Comments

kromon1kJan 1, 201534 votes

The dissent is louder than the consent on any issue. Also, people love to disagree, especially on internet forums. Nothing the forums have to say on balance deserves an ounce of credibility anyways.

Spacesuit SpiffJan 1, 20157 votes

{quoted}

The dissent is louder than the consent on any issue. Also, people love to disagree, especially on internet forums. Nothing the forums have to say on balance deserves an ounce of credibility anyways.

There's your answer. I imagine the rest of the thread will just be bashing Zyra

acepil0tJan 2, 20151 votes

No.

MrBuffingtonJan 2, 20152 votes

There's also more reason to post a comment if you disagree with OP rather than agree; with the latter a lot of times you just parrot back what they already said.

Kowe The EwokJan 1, 201517 votes

Zyra needs improvement. But she has the same problem Heimer has (and Yorick...). The Bronze-Army facetanks minions without bothering about them, going straight for the champion, meanwhile they eat a ton of damage. Do they question themself wether it might be the wrong strategy? No. They complain about any minions making champion until he/she gets nerfed.

Since people are too dumb to attack plants, there'll always be a derpLO army lamenting when Zyra or Heimer buffs are asked suggested.

JunkοJan 1, 20153 votes

The problem with Zyra plants is that they take 3 AA's to hit, and abilities only deal 1 hit point of damage to them too. Also attacking plants means that Zyra can attack you freely with her other plants and spells, while attacking her means plants will aggro you.

It's way worse in Heimer's case though so Zyra is perfectly okay.

Kowe The EwokJan 1, 20151 votes

1.) Seeds have a high CD 2.) In order to proc a seed Zyra has to use her ability on her plant (unless your positioning is bad ofc), this means she can't use it against you 3.) Just like heimer turrets plants have a very limited range and can be outranged by most midlaners (in case zyra is support you even have 2 players to knock out the plants)

JunkοJan 1, 20153 votes

Zyra doesn't have to use an ability directly on the plant, it just has to be nearby. Either that or she was bugged when i played her on her free week few days ago.

Also Zyra isn't a support, she was meant to be a mid mage. Just because people play her bot doesn't mean that's the only viable role she can be played in.

For example Annie is a mid mage who can 100-0 most mid laners at level 6. But for some dumb reason people play her bot lane.

tainteddazeJan 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OManMFKm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-01T03:21:21.713+0000)

Zyra needs improvement. But she ahs the same problem Heimer has (and Yorick...). The Bronze-Army facetanks minions without bothering about them, going straight for the champion, meanwhile they eat a ton of damage. Do they question themself wether it might be the wrong strategy? No. They complain about any minion making champion until he/she gets nerfed.

Since people are to dumb to attack plants, there'll always be a derpLO army lamenting when Zyra or Heimer buffs are asked suggested.

then you try and kill the plants / himer turrets they end up killing you before you can kill the plants or turrets off. Ive gone in many times and smited hiemers turrets just to have him place more as he is fighting me am i suppose to not kill him go to his tower that is attacking me anyway and kill it while he still does other power spells to me. No sorry your point is stupid.

Kowe The EwokJan 1, 20153 votes

Turrets habe 450 range. Most common mages can destroy Heimer turrets without ever getting hit. Since you assume that Heimer is maxing his turrets (which have 24s CD) his other abiities deal ignoreable damage at this point, not to mention they have 11s and 18s cooldown - this is by far not enough to force anybody out of lane.

Not realizing this screams Bronze 5.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 2, 20152 votes

LOL

If you get killed by Heimer or Zyra while attempting to kill their plants, then I'm sorry dude, go back to AI vs. Bots.

MadraJan 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OManMFKm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-01T03:21:21.713+0000)

Zyra needs improvement. But she has the same problem Heimer has (and Yorick...). The Bronze-Army facetanks minions without bothering about them, going straight for the champion, meanwhile they eat a ton of damage. Do they question themself wether it might be the wrong strategy? No. They complain about any minions making champion until he/she gets nerfed.

Since people are too dumb to attack plants, there'll always be a derpLO army lamenting when Zyra or Heimer buffs are asked suggested.

Well, Riot solved this problem by creating Azir, who has minions that you can't attack, who also has an escape, so even if you manage to walk through his minions, he can just drag himself away from you.

NarasimhaJan 2, 20153 votes

Well, not really a solution, since Azir has to still attack for his minons to actually do something. I can pop Zhonyas as Heim or Zyra and still maintain some DPS With Azir..

item 3157 Soldier: So.... coffee break?

The Red WardenJan 1, 201517 votes

One problem is that a lot of people don't want Riot focusing on their champion because when they do they either get buffed then nerfed to a worse state then they were before or get something like a Cass/skarner rework. So the mains will try to stop the discussion.

asktiksJan 2, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OManMFKm,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-01-01T04:00:23.678+0000)

One problem is that a lot of people don't want Riot focusing on their champion because when they do they either get buffed then nerfed to a worse state then they were before of get something like a Cass/skarner rework. So the mains will try to stop the discussion.

this...nine times out of ten when a champ becomes FOTM or players find a way to make it top tier , people will start maining him, so eventually the outcry from the people that don't main him or cant counter said champ becomes louder, riot nerfs (usually over nerfs too) that champ and then end up giving it a slight buff or Qol changes to make it somewhat viable again

or you get the skarner/cassi/poppy treatment where they just change the kit and feel of the champ completely and no one wants to play it anymore

truth be told if I like a champ and its doing good, I get scared of the incoming possibility of riot "looking at that champ"

love how syndra is getting nerfed yet her pick rate keeps dropping just because of LCS gameplay yet crap like reksai gets put out and left to become a tumor for months while he "gets looked at" (point in case, see gnar that got the shit buffed out of him when people couldn't play him for shit and now hes impossible to deal with if any good)

need more examples? yasuos incoming "nerf"

wind wall now lasts a lot less, but its cooldown is a lot less too...

meaning...yasuo just became even more impossible to lane against and has even more of a reason to go solo delete people come mid late game since his team presence also got butchered.....so....a champ that had retarded laning against most champs just got....even better laning, and less team presence when he already had little...that's riot balancing for you... expect wind wall to be gutted on the next pass around after people realize how much of a buff it actually is

The Red WardenJan 2, 20151 votes

Ignorant Yas mains will still say he gutted and ignore the buff like Lucian mains did when his dash got changed. The dash "nerf" hurt him so much in fact that Lucian's winrate went up by 8%

FadedpfJan 1, 201510 votes

This is just how the league forums work. Its retarded that someone can say riot overloads kits like yasuo/zed and that will get tons of upvotes. Then a please buff insert non op champion here will get downvoted to hell.

VDc0zCqe0wJan 2, 20152 votes

when i open the boards i see a Yasuo/Zed/Lee/Fizz whine thread every single time with nothing more than 10 words in it (have you seen the "fizz can dodge VI's ult "LOL? garbage topic just to fill the hate, zero contribution and analysis)

then someone writes a 2 pages essay on why Zyra should need some QoL fix or slight buff (mind, SLIGHT buff, we're not talking about +200 damage on her Q @ lvl 1), bringing examples and being constructive, and random idiots downvote it to hell because reasons

riot should just ignore those idiot whine topics and move on talking with people who can handle a conversation without flaming

It Is I EmotoJan 1, 20158 votes

That happens most the time with Sona :/

Hard PenetratorJan 1, 20156 votes

It's pretty complicated but generally both parties are right to some degree. Its easy to make or break champion with small change and if you love certain pick you know what might happened after a nice buff.

Buff>increased popularity>fotm>nerf>depression

There are also whiners that will write stupid ass posts about anything and think that they are smarter than average lol player. Their opinion is usually narrow and their data is based on 1-2 matches they either lost horribly or won 30-2.

Civil DawnJan 1, 20155 votes

Zyra is okay, but there's people that do her job better... for example if you want CC+DMG support you can get Annie instead. I do wish they would rework her passive. It's useless if you don't die.... Basically punishes the player for making good decisions/having good positioning.

WarcriJan 1, 20152 votes

It's generally pretty useless if you *do *die as well.

JunkοJan 1, 20152 votes

It takes too long to ready IMO

AnisopteraJan 1, 20153 votes

I'm a Zyra main who plays her mostly as support. I also know a little bit about game balancing from lots of beta tests over the years.

Anyway, this is what she needs in terms of buffs to make her fair in comparison. Remember, when Yasuo, Zed, Lee Sin, Thresh and Fizz exist, any champ can have a buff.

Her movement speed is ridiculously low. Probably the most unfair stat in the game, coupled with her extreme squishiness. +10 movement speed for the sexy plant lady.

Her passive is useless until she dies, and on top of that it has a delay to be ready, and a delay after firing. By the time it is ready, the target has got away and in out of range.

Her plant AI should prioritise nearby champions all the time and attack them as soon as they are in range, or maybe add some AI control. It is very common to take the kill when the adc would benefit more, but at the same time the plants like to ignore champs, especially the vine lashers.

Her E and passive are punishing to miss. Thresh hook, blitz grab, Morgana bind possess crazy hitboxes.

The three buffs above are in ascending in importance, meaning movement speed is most important. The passive needs to be made fair for Zyra players. The AI is optional so it's not a huge issue.

Zyra is definitely a good champ. If you don't think she is viable, then you clearly just spam champions like Zed and Yasuo. It is incredibly boring seeing the same champions every single game.

FantasySniperJan 1, 20153 votes

Stupidity is louder than intelligence.

"Genius is knowing to stay silent as others demonstrate their ignorance."

Eric Lau

Laughing FishJan 1, 20152 votes

Haters gonna hate.

Evil JesterJan 1, 20152 votes

what do you mean "you people"? XD

VDc0zCqe0wJan 1, 20152 votes

because people with zero games on the champ bronze/silver/gold come here and say "X champ is viable" without even knowing wtf are they talking about

no people with at least 50 games on the champion at a high level should be able to speak about their balance

zane yalgirJan 1, 20151 votes

zyra with no plants sucks shes good but she is like brand there's 5 others that do her job better

4NoxiousHoursJan 1, 201523 votes

[{quoted}](name=zane yalgir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OManMFKm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-01T02:12:14.141+0000)

zyra with no plants sucks shes good but she is like brand there's 5 others that do her job better

Don't start, I'm using her as an example.

FiraBurnJan 3, 20151 votes

He was just saying better option he not starting anything its like you people just want to jump to down voting whenever people have opinion on a particular champion. Lol and this gonna get down voted =p

FiraBurnJan 1, 20151 votes

Zyra don't need a buff she just a garbage champ no buff can fix her. You should look for a new main if all you do is ask for a buff for her why not just just play viable champs?

ShadowParkerJan 1, 201518 votes

You sir. Got no balls if you have to stick with just "viable" champions.

FiraBurnJan 1, 20154 votes

Um you want to go up ranks well you have to use viable champs. You don't get special treatment using garbage tier champs like zyra in ranks. Meta exist for a reason if you don't like it than deal with it.

ShadowParkerJan 2, 20151 votes

If you look at the Lcs, and many many of the pros. They break meta ALL THE TIME. A guy made it to diamond just doing Twisted Fate jungle. So if you think that you have to stick with what's "good" and what's "strong", than you will never reach those higher ranks. Those champions that are "viable" are only called viable because people took the time to learn said champion and figure out how they work. You can make ANY champion viable.

FiraBurnJan 2, 20151 votes

Yea maybe with good champs. Try doing it with a zero damage no mobilty garbage champ zyra. This guy obvious wants his champ to be buff selfishly so he can actually start winning games with her. I agree a lot of champs can be viable. that's without needing to cry to riot to buff your champion. In other words what I'm saying is if you crying about a buff for a champ like what this guy did in the other post he have here that champ is just not good enough to climb with. The guy who climb with tf jungle didn't cry for buff he knew tf was good and had his mechanics down so yes he got rewarded for it and reach diamond .Not like this zyra fanboy.

19 19 19Jan 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yea maybe with good champs. Try doing it with a zero damage no mobilty garbage champ zyra. This guy obvious wants his champ to be buff selfishly so he can actually start winning games with her. I agree a lot of champs can be viable. that's without needing to cry to riot to buff your champion. In other words what I'm saying is if you crying about a buff for a champ like what this guy did in the other post he have here that champ is just not good enough to climb with. The guy who climb with tf jungle didn't cry for buff he knew tf was good and had his mechanics down so yes he got rewarded for it and reach diamond .Not like this zyra fanboy.

whats that dude's name

NinpireJan 2, 20153 votes

...get out. I don't even play zyra and I know her damage isn't something to laugh at

ShadowParkerJan 2, 20151 votes

First off, the author "4NoxiousHours", didn't ask for a buff for zyra, he was simply using zyra as an example. He's saying how when someone asks how zyra is, people will freak out and say she's terrible after nerfs, but if someone asks for a buff, everyone freaks out and says she'd be super overpowered. That's what the author is stating, not that she needs a buff.

Second off, just because somebody is immobile does not make them weak? And obviously you've never played zyra if you actually think she does 0 damage. Zyra is ridiculous. And she does not need buffs for climbing, if you look at zyra's skins. You'll see one called SKT T1, that skin, was given to her because a pro team won with her. Lemme say that again, a PRO TEAM WON WITH ZYRA.

About the twisted fate part: You literally said earlier "Meta exist for a reason if you don't like it than deal with it." Now you're saying it's ok for that diamond player who mained jungle twisted fate, because he had his mechanics "down". You're simply just proving how any champion can be viable when mastered.

Please read before you make an invalid arguement, thank ya.

FiraBurnJan 2, 20151 votes

Um not this post the same author did a post right b4 this one saying he wants buff/changes on her. Didn't read the rest tldr.

ShadowParkerJan 2, 20152 votes

So you didn't even read the rest of the post? Wow. Please, Fira, don't go on boards and make an invalid argument unless you plan on supporting it. Right now you're showing that you know you're wrong but you can't admit to it.

FiraBurnJan 3, 20151 votes

Said something about pro player winning with zyra. So guess I should main shen now? Blah blah blah I admit I was wrong on the meta only win game thing ok. Blah blah guess that's all you wrote. There I actually read the post. Happy =)

ShadowParkerJan 3, 20151 votes

Where are you getting this "I guess I should main shen now?"? All I'm stating is any champion can be viable and op if the user takes time to play them. And so I'm calling you out on you saying zyra is a garbage champion and that no buff can fix her. Because you're drastically wrong.

gubigubiJan 1, 20151 votes

Because no on has any idea what they are talking about on any forums for any game in regards to balance.

Keon KamoriJan 1, 20153 votes

Your statement is false because some players who post on the forums actually know a bit about game design and the math that goes on behind it. When it comes to balancing a champion for this game its a bit more difficult because there is a lot that goes into champion power and viability. Changing a champion means nothing if their kit takes advantage of an item they can build in game. Old banner of command for champs like Zyra or Hiem or Yorick, or the release Feral Flare and its successor Devourer enchant for all AA based junglers. Champion synergy also plays a part in champion strength and viability, Malphite + Yasuo, Rengar + Oriana, Lee Sin + well any champ in the game really.

However when it comes to base balancing, a champion's overall interactions between ally and enemy champs is what riot seems to go for. This is seen in examples such as release feral flare or patch 4.20 Warwick which i'm sure everyone can agree were both too strong.

So to the Zyra comment, both sides are true. As a mid laner she is lacking and needs love in the way of buffing. She has a hard time keeping up with the more mobile damage heavy assassins the mid lanes is dominated by and doesn't have the range to deal with the longer ranged poke mages also played in the meta. As a support however, her CC, utility and damage are an annoyance that can sometimes have a strong impact in games. This happens to a lot of mages when the mete kicks them from the mid lane.

19 19 19Jan 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Keon Kamori,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OManMFKm,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-01-01T06:10:23.199+0000)

Your statement is false because some players who post on the forums actually know a bit about game design and the math that goes on behind it. When it comes to balancing a champion for this game its a bit more difficult because there is a lot that goes into champion power and viability. Changing a champion means nothing if their kit takes advantage of an item they can build in game. Old banner of command for champs like Zyra or Hiem or Yorick, or the release Feral Flare and its successor Devourer enchant for all AA based junglers. Champion synergy also plays a part in champion strength and viability, Malphite + Yasuo, Rengar + Oriana, Lee Sin + well any champ in the game really.

However when it comes to base balancing, a champion's overall interactions between ally and enemy champs is what riot seems to go for. This is seen in examples such as release feral flare or patch 4.20 Warwick which i'm sure everyone can agree were both too strong.

So to the Zyra comment, both sides are true. As a mid laner she is lacking and needs love in the way of buffing. She has a hard time keeping up with the more mobile damage heavy assassins the mid lanes is dominated by and doesn't have the range to deal with the longer ranged poke mages also played in the meta. As a support however, her CC, utility and damage are an annoyance that can sometimes have a strong impact in games. This happens to a lot of mages when the mete kicks them from the mid lane.

I find it hilarious how there's some people in this thread who are talking about Zyra when it's just being used as an example xD not only that there's already a dude who's proving this thread's point which is this guy that I'm quoting now.

Keon KamoriJan 1, 20153 votes

The only reason I wrote about Zyra was because it was used as the example. The same things I wrote about her apply to other champions such as Kassadin, Gragas, and Nidalee, who moved from mid to top lane, or Karma, Morgana, or Annie. The reason there are split opinions on champions is because some champions have things in their kits that when coupled with damage viable to their originally intended lane become op. Hence players who were around for season 3 know that Kassadin doesn't need a buff although both his popularity and ban rate are below 5%. Yes these champions are weak in respect to what they used to be but no we don't want to see them back at what they were before the nerfs.

I hope that made my point more clear.

Kuroi86Jan 1, 20154 votes

Some, though if you read through enough threads, you realize a large chunk of people have no idea. Hence why there are so many nerf/gut/olaf threads. People don't think of balance, they just want to win with their choice in champ.

Keon KamoriJan 1, 20155 votes

I agree entirely with you. The majority of players in this community don't understand the game well enough to make assumptions on what would better the balance of the game. Which saddens me because those who do understand and have meaningful things to say to Riot, often get drowned in the sea of misinformed posts. But hey, I guess keeping up to date with patch notes and having a decent understanding of math is too much to ask.