I really miss Zyra as a mid lane champion

4NoxiousHours·Mar 28, 2017·84 votes·3,506 views

I used to be a Zyra main before the whole mage update came up. I honestly never had an issue with Zyra's kit besides her passive. I thought Riot was gonna create something in her passive where it would benefit her plants but instead it's just random spawns of seeds and a wacky Q.

I played this new Zyra in mid lane and jesus.... she felt even more squishy than she was before. At that point I realized that she will no longer become a mid lane mage.

I now know that if Zyra were to get a buff, it would only hurt the bot lane side :/

I'll miss you mid lane Zyra ;-; Thanks Riot, for ruining the one champion that I was decent with in carrying my team ;-;

Fuck you

66 Comments

4NoxiousHoursMar 28, 201718 votes

A LOT of people disliked Zyra's old passive, I was one of those people but what I wanted for Zyra's passive was to KEEP that vengeful passive and add a second passive where it would benefit her plants. Like maybe add bleed or poison ya know?

This random seed spawning and the whole fantasy of making her be one with nature of summoner rift was complete trash. I DO NOT feel the whole theme with her spawning random freaking seeds all over the place.

I loved her Q being a circle but a diameter across made me feel as if it was hard to land on enemies. I feel at this point it's wasteful to put out full thoughts on her because knowing Riot's reputation, they will never get things right within months. It takes them at least 5 years to get something right.

Imperial JapanMar 28, 20172 votes

Maybe they could've made it so that every minion killed (by zyra) would spawn a plant which could turn into a plant which does half dmg as normal plants. (Post rework)

TseisonMar 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Maybe they could've made it so that every minion killed (by zyra) would spawn a plant which could turn into a plant which does half dmg as normal plants. (Post rework)

Zyra I actually love this idea as in her role she is a carnivores plant, so they should work or take inspiration from that. If anything, I would also have it so that if her skills kill a minion(s) they spawn a spitter but can only have a maximum of 8 plants in the world. Now some might say that she's reliant on her plants for damage... well let's stop that now because unless heims turrets are treated the same and deal -50% damage towards the same target, then no.... I would just have her plants spawning as part of her passive and replace her W with something else.

Reiterating my idea I posted in other posts:

Passive: No change. "But make seeds spawn in close proximity OR have spells be able to reach the same distance as the seeds.

OR ( for her new passive) Killing a minion/monster/champion spawns a spitter (max 8 but will deal half damage to the same target)

Q: Increase damage OR ap ratio. "NEW" The size of the spell grows twice at levels 8/16. As a controller this definitely helps with reaching far away seeds, dealing big aoe damage and wave clear too!

W: Holds 3 charges now. (If I'm being chased and my passive is spawning seeds away from me, I NEED to have plants available as quick as possible. It's disappointing that she relies too much on plants but in this case, they need to be readily available).

OR (for her new W) Every 20s she passively roots a nearby enemy for 1.25s or however long, (the radius for this would be semi big) the active skill would be a sort of rampaging bramble attack that bursts outwards from her, dealing damage and also bleeding.

E: Slightly longer reach for where the vines travel to. No longer summons lashers now as spitters are more reliable.

R: Ultimate will now slow enemies within by XX% OR again, grows in size (once though).

An Undead bratMar 28, 20176 votes

I like how these changes delete all the CD, ranges, positioning and cast/misile speed management skills that differentiate good Zyras from bad, HILARIOUS

crippler38Mar 28, 20171 votes

I feel this could of been worded better but here's my 2 cents.

That sounds like it would make wave management a nightmare.

rtbf225618241Mar 28, 20171 votes

I'd imagine seeds spawning around her corpse in a perfect circle and then as she shoots in whatever direction, the seeds in that area turn into empowered plants or something. Would make it far more sensible.

P0IS0N IVYMar 28, 20172 votes

Tbh I'm not a fan of any of the dying passives because it requires you to die in order to use it.

I like the dot idea. I wouldn't mind if she became sort of like Nidalee, as in when certain abilities hit in order there are some extra effects.

Her seed diarrhea is just not fun.

inplaneMar 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

A LOT of people disliked Zyra's old passive, I was one of those people but what I wanted for Zyra's passive was to KEEP that vengeful passive and add a second passive where it would benefit her plants. Like maybe add bleed or poison ya know?

This random seed spawning and the whole fantasy of making her be one with nature of summoner rift was complete trash. I DO NOT feel the whole theme with her spawning random freaking seeds all over the place.

I loved her Q being a circle but a diameter across made me feel as if it was hard to land on enemies. I feel at this point it's wasteful to put out full thoughts on her because knowing Riot's reputation, they will never get things right within months. It takes them at least 5 years to get something right.

I thought they would just add something to her passive too. Maybe an additional effect to the on-death attack like buffing active plants to go crazy. But nope.

Instead, we get Shady Business Zyra who just spreads her legs and sprays her seeds all over the place like a sprinkler. One with nature my ass. Nature doesn't have plants sprout in the worst places imaginable. To add salt to the wound, they make it so that her scalings are complete garbage to force her into using that awful passive.

AspynnMar 28, 201714 votes

She used to be so that you could flash ew qw ult and get an instant quadra, now it just feels like her q does 0 damage at all, and they fucked her plant AI in a way that doesn't even really make her plant focus that good.

An Undead bratMar 28, 20179 votes

Yeah, that's called balancing a game, Riot does it time to time - or no, wait, I forgot people like to get insta-aced with no counterplay.

And these are the same Boards that complain about assassins one-shotting one target, lul

manbearswineMar 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fV1HjdWH,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-28T13:07:26.966+0000)

Yeah, that's called balancing a game, Riot does it time to time - or no, wait, I forgot people like to get insta-aced with no counterplay.

And these are the same Boards that complain about assassins one-shotting one target, lul

You know just because he says it's something that happened doesn't mean it actually happened.(and just to be clear, it didn't, hell with how her e and q work if they both hit 4 people they pretty much deserved to die, and either way it definitely wasn't "instant")

Oh and also, as we are all aware, the plant ai is a whole lot better than before(it still derps, but nowhere near as bad as it used to).

I don't know why you even bother with this thread, it's a bunch of people who never played zyra complaining it isn't fair that zyra was "made"(lol, she basically always was) into a support.

An Undead bratMar 28, 20171 votes

It's pretty amusing xD And Zyra is in no fucking case a support, don't let them decieve you!

manbearswineMar 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fV1HjdWH,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-28T21:31:53.691+0000)

It's pretty amusing xD And Zyra is in no fucking case a support, don't let them decieve you!

I speak of support as the role(pos 5), not as functionality.

People here tend to forget(probably because it's convenient to whatever BS they are trying to push) that support is named support because when someone had to fill the role with the least gold, that someone had a tendency to have a supportive kit, it's not because some frozen toad decided that we need someone on the team to have a supportive kit, and that said someone needs to have the least gold.

So zyra is very much a support role-wise, as far as functionality goes...not so much.

An Undead bratMar 28, 20172 votes

No matter the meaning, all I hear are offenses in my ears!

AspynnMar 29, 20171 votes

I definitely at least got an instant TRIPLE that way before... But that's beside the point. And yeah, it was pretty instant, since you e, as it moves you q, as the q animation goes, you ult, and all the damage goes off in under a second, or at least it did today against a Mordekaiser. 900 damage in 0.6 seconds, about the same as an instapop by a zed or anyone. I'm not saying her AI is buggy now, it's just that they made it so her AI no longer prioritizes champions in their radius so long as there are other closer targets. I understand that it made her extremely oppressive as a zoning support, but makes her ai inferior to some of the other more aggressive ones, or ones that can be commanded. But at least auto attacking assigns targets, so it's not all that bad.

manbearswineMar 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I definitely at least got an instant TRIPLE that way before... But that's beside the point. And yeah, it was pretty instant, since you e, as it moves you q, as the q animation goes, you ult, and all the damage goes off in under a second, or at least it did today against a Mordekaiser.

It doesn't matter, these abilities are telegraphed and have a travel time/cast delay, it's instant when rengar pops out of thin air and deletes you, or when annie flash ults, the very nature of zyra's abilities makes instant deletions outright impossible.

900 damage in 0.6 seconds, about the same as an instapop by a zed or anyone.

A zed instapop(which isn't something he is too good at), is about 0.2 seconds long, this is 3 times that.

And there's a VERY big difference between things that kill you in ~ 0.25 seconds( average human reaction time), and more than that, at 0.6 seconds(which is a bit less than the delay on q, and e will generally take longer to reach unless you basically melee them with it), not only is it enough time to flash out, it's also enough time to dash out(with any dash really, not just the faster ones), and quite possibly even walk out.

This isn't instant, even if the damage hits all at once, simply because the abilities need to travel. Oh and zyra's(including old zyra's) burst ratios are/were pretty poor, she relied on her plants to get some damage in, so not only are the regular "insta deletions" outright impossible for zyra, even those with a less appropriate definition were pretty unlikely for her(in comparison to any burst mage really, and let's not even mention assassins).

I'm not saying her AI is buggy now, it's just that they made it so her AI no longer prioritizes champions in their radius so long as there are other closer targets.

It never worked that way, for reworked zyra they basically hit anything at plant spawn range(which was really generous), but prerework zyra prioritized more or less the way she does now, they just freeze in place less.

I understand that it made her extremely oppressive as a zoning support,

It made her poke pattern obnoxious anywhere, support zyra simply had less weaknesses than mid zyra, so she became a high priority pick there.

but makes her ai inferior to some of the other more aggressive ones, or ones that can be commanded. But at least auto attacking assigns targets, so it's not all that bad.

You could give her better AI, naturally that would be a pretty serious buff so something would have to go to allow this, and I don't think there's too much interest in that, aside from people who are asking for buffs but pretending not to.

DethflashMar 28, 201713 votes

Yea i used to ONLY play zyra in thr mid lane, then riot changed her. I still play her in the mid lane in normal games sometimes, but playing her mid lane you basically just farm, try to poke enemy out of lane, and farm some more. Playing zyra mid isnt what it used to be at all :(

ClementineMar 28, 20176 votes

Fuck you

Fuck you too bully

4NoxiousHoursMar 28, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Fuck you too bully

You're gonna get gutted soon. F U

Imperial JapanMar 28, 20176 votes

Zyra was really fun pre rework. I hate her new RNG based kit and weird ass Q. Oh well

FantasySniperMar 28, 20172 votes

I knew I wasn't the only one who hated the RNG.

TotalJerkMar 28, 20171 votes

I don't know if its just me, but something about her passive seeds doesn't feel like RNG. I can often estimate exactly where the next seed is gonna drop by instinct.

P0IS0N IVYMar 28, 20171 votes

I've noticed standing in certain spots ensure a seed dropping in an area.

Still don't like the Hearthstone RNG tho, especially since it made her W CD so long.

Imperial JapanMar 29, 20171 votes

You're just Jesus reborn lol

go commit dieMar 28, 20175 votes

You can still play zyra mid, she still has insane damage and can still bully many other champs out of lane. I played her mostly mid on my path for mastery 7 zyra, and I carried many games.

I don't understand why so many people dislike the post-mymu zyra. Her old passive was literally useless and made no sense on a squishy long-ranged cc machine. Her old q was bland as hell and the new emphasis on her plants was to give her more of a niche of zoning control.

And honestly, I don't get why people hate her going support. Is role diversity such a bad thing? I know it's painful to go up against when she chunks you for half your health lvl 2 with just one combo, but looking at her kit, even pre-mymu, she has the tools to fight against multiple people.

LankPantsMar 28, 20176 votes

And honestly, I don't get why people hate her going support. Is role diversity such a bad thing?

Not always but Zyra has none. It's always support Zyra and never mid.

SammystormMar 28, 20175 votes

I will make several points.

I do not miss old zyra in the slightest. Her entire life has been a nightmare. She was hotfixed like 2 or 3 days after release she was so strong. She slowly got better but the damage she has provided has always been overwhelming.

Now What I will say is that she can go mid. She fits all the criteria and can do well mid. The reason she usually doesn't perform is because she is too squishy too compete with hard burst all in. She also has a hard time with poke for various reasons.

The problem with making zyra a mid laner is that she would have to get better burst which would break her in bot lane or break her in mid lane. She is too much of a stat check to be healthy as a competitive mid laner.

BârdMar 28, 20174 votes

I miss jungle Zyra.

You can still do it (barely) but there is no point.

The amazingly healthy clear I enjoyed was gutted by the drastic nerfs to her plant duration.

LankPantsMar 28, 20174 votes

I just want to see a full rework on her passive at this point.

Even if she's theoretically balanceable with her current passive and even if you could make her more viable in mid lane with it it's just a garbage design. It feels like the RNG on Zyra's seeds often determines more than player skill. It's entirely possible to just have 2 seeds dumped near you and instantly lose a trade because of it, it shouldn't be. By the same token Zyra is also reliant on her RNG, if RNGesus doesn't like her and perpetually dumps seeds behind her she'll probably just lose irrespective of skill.

What I think Zyra's passive should do is reward her for landing both plant AAs and spells, rather than centralising her kit around just the plants as it is now. Something like "Zyra and her plant's AAs apply a stacking debuff, when Zyra lands a spell on her target this debuff is consumed and deals extra damage based off of the number of stacks Zyra has placed". Something like this would force Zyra to land spells to maximise her damage which I'd argue is a huge issue with her current kit. It could also be more ratio heavy to encourage Zyra mid more than support.

NymzoMar 28, 20173 votes

As a support main, I also miss mid Zyra along with Brand and Malz (and maybe Velkoz).

BorblandMar 28, 20173 votes

Nah, Mid Zyra is still viable, it has it stronger and weaker phases but she always was playable mid.

Her new passive is much better than the old one, this the old one was overnerfed, the damage was extremely low for how hard it was to hit someone with it.

Mid Zyra is one of my mains (2nd behind Vel'Koz), and true, she gets hit hard by the nerfs that normally should only touch support Zyra, but she is still viable.

I just wish Riot would increase her ratios and reduce her base damage so mid Zyra would not get hit by collateral damage due to nerfs to support Zyra.

Raven RedeemedMar 28, 20172 votes

I'm pretty much in the same boat. Zyra became my main mid laner because I loved her combination of burst and zone control. I truly hated her passive but everything else was great except maybe for her low move speed. Now days Zyra seems like a fairly brain dead champ. She doesn't really have the burst to kill anyone so you don't really need to worry about landing the Q on the enemy champ, just use to spawn as many of those wimpy plants as you can. Before people feared both your abilities and plants, but now you don't need worry about either, just how many plants are out. It just seems like they took out the skill expression from her kit.

AccountaBilabudyMar 28, 20172 votes

I think she's okay mid. Up until last patch where they nerfed her plan AI, I thought she was good mid. Look at my history and you'll see I have about a 67% winning percentage with her through about 70ish games (4.0 kda), and that's about 90% mid lane games. She is very strong vs melee champs like Yasuo/Talon. She's also good vs just about any other "mage" type champion. The only champs I've have a hard time against were Akali, Swain, and Fizz. Jayce can be tough as well.

She dominates vs Annie, Lux, Ziggs, Ryze, Syndra

Her real weakness is her lack of mobility, so junglers with strong ganks are hard to play against. Zac, Vi, Xin are brutal.

Her scaling is bad, so she's really strong early and mid game once you have a item 3001 and item 3151 she can burst any squishy down in 1 combo of E+W + Q+W + R.

P0IS0N IVYMar 28, 20172 votes

Thank god I'm not the only one who dislikes her new passive.

I miss the times before her update and when people said she was trash.

Ad Astra per AspMar 28, 20172 votes

I adapted to the Q the passive is a bit weird I try to ignore it and just if it helps me great. Basically if you stay in one area for a long time, like mid lane, you get free plants.

My main gripe with zyra is the same that old zyra had, it's that you feel afraid to roam and you are constantly in fear of turret dives or even extending a bit. You basically have to have your back to mid turret all game except when you go in for a kill or risk death by ganks because you are immobile and have no defense and your binding doesn't buy you enough time to get away vs pretty much anyone in the game because the animation is too slow and you're usually cc'd or slow'd yourself which means you don't make it very far unless you see people coming from far, far away. Basically, she's WAYYYYYYYY too easy to flank and her entire map presence sucks as a result when she is mid.

I mean she can waveclear against like 3-4 people. But they can dive her. Also I can get kills vs most matchups with her. A few pokes then all in and ignite you got a kill. Basically she needs to have a small kickback on her E or have it animate faster or up her base movement. Something becuase her ability to disengage is basically you do so with flash or very little hp left :(

Twinity FerceMar 28, 20171 votes

Just play Heimerdinger , basically the same thing.

TormentulaMar 28, 20171 votes

I find it debatable whether or not zyra mid is better than heim.

Twinity FerceMar 28, 20171 votes

Most certainly debatable. Their lane gameplay is used to be the exact same, however. Put down plant from waaay out of your opponent's range, then let plant do all the lane work for you.

Romans 8Mar 28, 20171 votes

I can definitely say that I have not played the post-mymu Zyra and have no desire to. Her passive rework was just an re-implementation of Illaoi's passive, and was not unique. It doesn't contribute to the skill required to play her kit. The only thing wrong with her old kit was the passive- the Q didn't need to be changed. What they should have done is added a stacking system for her seeds on W (such is the case with Cait's traps). Also, I don't like how the new plants/flowers have this weird/awkward timed health and hit health meter combination- it should be combined into one health meter (like Azir tower).

Something cool may be to have her main spells (Q/E) have more unique effects (as other champs), but have increased scaling depending on the # of plants/flowers around her (which requires skill) or something. This would put her plants as support, instead of main attacking mechanism. Maybe that's not the route most players would want though...

ShinjusukeMar 28, 20171 votes

You know what I miss?

Actual fucking supports being bot lane, and actual fucking mages being mid lane.

Kinda tired of it being totally normal to see support Brand, Annie, Zyra, Vel'Koz, and all the other "durr hurr I build spellthief's edge and our team now has two AP Carries".

Like I'm all for taking champions into different lanes, and variety, and whatnot.

But almost all of the champions who are now ridiculously high-damage supports got shifted into the support role and left there, instead of getting the balancing they needed to make them viable midlaners again instead of just infuriating-to-play-against supports.

Just one opinion, but I'm sorry, the concept of a fucking fire elemental that wants to incinerate the world being relegated to keeping some chick with a sniper rifle alive than burning the enemy midlaner to a crisp kinda bothers me.

Mages being supports is fine by me.

If they're Mages FIRST and Supports SECOND.

If they're getting played more as supports than midlaners, there's probably either A) something wrong with how Riot is doing supports or B) something wrong with how Riot is handling these mages.

Laxfan52Mar 29, 20171 votes

But lulu is one of the most played supports currently...

ShinjusukeMar 30, 20171 votes

So are Brand, Fiddlesticks, Galio...

I'm not saying "true supports" don't get played. I"m saying Midlaner Mages that should be better in midlane than they are as supports are being played as supports far too often.

QuephaMar 28, 20171 votes

zyra was not considered much of a mid laner before the mage update either, i don't understand why you think your hipster pick went from hipster tier to useless tier.

EpicanianMar 29, 20171 votes

zyra... midlane? I've never heard of such a thing

PaffWasTakenMar 29, 20171 votes

Maybe squishier than before, but with that huuuuuuuuge damage buff even tanks can't get to her without getting minced to death

OwynMar 29, 20171 votes

I miss my main Morgana mid [zombie-nunu-bummed]

KoKobotoMar 29, 20171 votes

Zyra was already a simple champion, you had to go outside the box with her kit and plant placement to maximize her potential. Now she's a braindead champion...

Zyra was my second main, for the longest time she remained my second highest mastery points champions even after I stopped playing her feelsbadman...

VierMar 29, 20171 votes

Well you can thank Azir for that. Why play Heimer or Zyra in the midlane if Azir when played to a high level can do what these champions do except better? Although Riot claims they balanced Zyra not around a specific lane it can be clearly seen that she was balanced around support.

New champions (such as Azir) need to be taken into consideration of not becoming a better version of a certain type of champions (in this case summoning champions such as Zyra and Heimer).

Yes Azir is weak bla bla bla but he is in his current state for a reason and I'd still rather verse any other champion mid lane over him even in his current state. Definition of a champion that you have to punish the player playing him for a misplay instead of him as a champion having moments of weakness like most other champions.

Also her plant health was nerfed until you start putting points into W all because of her random passive that 4/5 times will not spawn plants in places you need them. Oh and RIP the cdr on her W that balanced out her ultimate cooldown, at least they changed the cooldown of her ult when they removed it... oh wait...

HemopartyMar 29, 20171 votes

I don't have any actual problem with Zyra's new Q. Maybe it's just that as a former Malzahar player I have more experience landing rectangle AoEs, but I feel the new shape is potentially better for summoning spread-out Spitters instead of having them clumped up in a circle. That said, her RNG passive just exacerbates everything wrong with Zyra's kit. I enjoy getting free seeds, and lowering W's CD to give the Zyra player more control would probably screw the balance in her Delta of Effectiveness. Instead, it would be nice if her passive rewarded her with bonus seeds for doing something specific instead of just spitting out inopportune, poorly-placed seeds I have to play around.