Let's count how much AP we have lost since the beggining of season 5

L0ve Is Blue·Dec 1, 2016·76 votes·4,686 views

from 70 AP to 60 AP. -10 from 120 AP to 70 AP. -50 from 60 AP to 40 AP. -20 from 80 AP to 60 AP. -20 replaced death fire grasp. from 120 AP to 100 AP. -20 AP. from 100 AP to 75 AP. -25 AP.

This far, the total of removed AP is 145. This is for mostly mage items. We could also count who had their AP part completely removed, (90 in total) and the total AP removed from the game would be of 235.

What did we get in compensation?

+5%AP on Rabadon

No wonder I used to get around 800 AP before and now I Barely get to 650.

EDIT: Also forgot they are removing 15% AP from blue buff. I remember a Rioter using this as an excuse for lowering AP accross the board. What do we have now?

166 Comments

Big LincolnDec 1, 201642 votes

all that AP lost and mages are still dominant

wew

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 201626 votes

Maybe if they didn't nerf every single Assassin in the game we could have some diversity mid, but mages sure aren't the problem right now. They are just better pic mid for this patch. And AP lost also affects AP assassins, not just mages.

ACENOXDec 1, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0ve Is Blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OKm70BE6,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-12-01T14:50:02.057+0000)

mages sure aren't the problem right now. They are just better pic mid for this patch.

you're just contradicting yourself

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 201614 votes

What competition do mages have mid? Assassins. I just said assassins got gutted so why wouldn't mage be a better pic mid if their only competitors are shit?

Sahn UzalDec 1, 201615 votes

KogMaw Jayce Gangplank Yasuo Varus

doublelift fgDec 1, 201614 votes

don't forget our good old mage that got reworked into a bruiser and is still played mid in high elo Mordekaiser

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 20169 votes

Kog is played in less than 1% of the games mid, the others but yasuo are not really meant for mid it's just a thing they can do and if theyget outshined by mages it's not much of a problem since they are not really supposed to go mid.

And let's be honnest Yasuo will never be out of the meta with that kit.

Jeddy017Dec 1, 20163 votes

To be fair, Mages were dominating BEFORE the Assassin update. The Assassin update just increased their dominance.

Sraeg2013Dec 1, 20163 votes

Because mid lane assassins weren't in the meta since Season 3 with the exception of Zed after his mini-rework and an odd Kha'Zix every now and then.

Jax CramerDec 1, 201617 votes

Keystones like Thunderlords or DFT also added more AP ratios, same as items like Ludens, GLP, or Protobelt.

ACENOXDec 1, 201615 votes

who cares if mages are still doing a lot of damage?

The Ginger NingaDec 1, 201612 votes

People like to complain. That and AD items haven't lost as much AD either.

ACENOXDec 1, 20168 votes

AD items don't need to get their ad reduced ADC are the only AD users that are stupid, and it's not because of AD but because of a combination of a lot of things in the game Bruisers don't build a lot of AD anyway Assassins don't need to be nerfed more, Rengar is stupid because of his AD deathcap which is getting nerfed.

meanwhile at the current patch Orianna is running around removing half of your hp with Q+W just with item 3165 item 3116 . Not even talking about other mages

yeah no, this needs to stop

Wild WesDec 1, 20165 votes

http://i.imgur.com/CoWZ05t.gif?noredirect

101100111000Dec 2, 201614 votes

item 3001 - Grants 10% cdr in compensation. 10 more MR in compensation. Any changes in Season 5 were basically cost changes.

item 3157 - Grants 10% cdr in compensation. I'll grant that its raw stats have been nerfed since the beginning of Season 5, but this item has always been almost exclusively mandatory on mages by being both one of the largest whacking stats and having one of the best item actives in the entire game. Its utility is almost unparalleled. It shouldn't be a giant metal bat on top of that.

item 3152 item 3030 - Now exist. This effectively adds 140 AP to the potential pool of items based on the way you're counting.

item 3165 - +20 AP.

item 3027 - Now you are STRAIGHT UP LYING.

At the beginning of Season 5, Rod of Ages actually already had 60 AP. In patch 5.13, The AP growth stat was doubled from 20 AP at full stacks to 40 AP at full stacks. Its stacking mana rate was also doubled from 200 Mana at full to 400 Mana at full, losing 50 base Mana and 150 base health (becoming 400 mana 300 health base).

In 5.22, the cost was increased, but then Rod of Ages got 20 base AP. So now it's gone from an 80 AP to a 120 AP item.

Rod of Ages flat out got 40 AP over the course of Season 5, then MYMU cut out 20 AP and gave it the new Eternity passive for sustain instead.

Rod of Ages has actually been buffed by 20 AP since the beginning of Season 5.

item 3285 - Grants 10% Movement Speed and an additional 10% AP damage proc. It's honestly a big step up in terms of utility over DFG.

item 3116 - Rylai's was not even addressed in Season 6's MYMU. All changes barring the stat drops that are current stem precisely from Season 5.

At the beginning of Season 5, Rylai's was a 400 Health, 100 AP item. Single target slows were 35%, Instant AoEs were 15%, DoT slow were 15%, all lasting 1.5 seconds.

Then this happened in 5.13:

Single Target Slow increased to 40% from 35% Area of Effect Slow (instant) increased to 40% from 15% Damage over time or Multi-hit Slow increased to 20% for 1 second from 15% for 1.5 seconds Summoned minions now slow on-hit 20% for 1 second

The only real nerf from the beginning of Season 5 to now on Rylai's is (realistically) raw stats and single-target utility.

And no, mages never built item 3060 or item 3078 at any consistent rate.

I can't even take your argument seriously because it outright ignores certain Season 5 itemization changes that are likely crucial to understanding why these items might have been nerfed in MYMU or are being nerfed now. You also don't consider the fact that a mage doesn't have 8 item slots. The potential AP lost should be typified based on how much AP the mage could even build to begin with, not by the total loss of all potential items.

On average, mage itemization has probably lost around 60-70 raw AP, a good chunk of it coming out of Zhonya's neck. And with good reason.

Let us also not forget the 50 AP from the Elixir of Sorcery come end game, which replaced the 40 AP Elixir of brilliance.

L0ve Is BlueDec 2, 20162 votes

Aight list more side stats they put on AP items to compensate for the AP removal. I'm not going to answer everything you said but the truth is: AP has been nerfed accross the board. You can't say otherwise. AP IS the most important stat for mages/AP assassins. Who gives a shit if zhonya had 150 armor, 45% CDR, it's not as good as the old one if it has less than 120 AP because mages are only usefull because of their spells and guess what: Their spells scales of AP.

Roar of LegendDec 2, 20163 votes

I would totally buy that Zhonya single handedly for the 45% CDR, very slot efficient with a good solid 150 armor for survivability. If mages are only about damage and deleting people, then that's not much of a variety... we have Veigar and Syndra for that. I PREFER to see a diverse class of mages, the mobile one like Ahri and Leblanc, the utility one like Karma and Oriana, the damage over time like brand and Malzahar, the "tankier" one like Diana and Lissandra. It make each game more memorable. Before season 5, the only thing that I remember about mages was a spook Leblanc and Ahri with DFG. That or the AOE horror Zigg and Kennen.

Sona x RubickDec 1, 201612 votes

good fucking riddance

people seem to not remember what happened when mages had 800 AP

D357R0Y3RDec 1, 20166 votes

Orianna armor/mr steroid on ally AOE high speed boost, and high AOE slow a decent shield AOE hard cc followed by a mini-stun

high utility isn't enough for a mage, let's give her 800 AP so she can nuke a team on top of that xd

same for Viktor Velkoz Veigar Ryze Cassiopeia Syndra

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 20169 votes

Litteraly every mage you stated but viktor and Orianna had some kind of rework. This is not an AP problem, it's a kit problem. Let's be honest, most medium/small scale rework do nothing but break the champion. Remember Graves, Caitlyn, Corki (before he got gutted) and Miss Fortune after the ADC update? It's about the same for them. And no one will blame AD items giving too much AD when we bring up those champions and say how unbalanced they are, but why is it different with mages?

AhristocatsDec 1, 20169 votes

800 AP is broken, even Skarner with 800 AP is able to oneshot you, this isn't relevant because skarner sucks anyway if built full ap, but fact is that HE'LL STILL DO TOO MUCH DAMAGE.

in this game AP ratio are always somewhat high, and that's why having 800 AP is a problem. You can take any champ with a lot of AP ratio you will always break him with 800 AP

example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8VmpgGCgoM

So when you have Fizz dealing tons of AOE damage with his ulti just with like 300 or 400, i don't want to see him oneshoting my entire team with 800 AP

look at the damage of Viktor with just Q and lichbane, do you want to see him having 800 AP?

Beside, Mages are the one who uses AP most of the time, you have like 2 or 3 assassins using AP, supports never use 800 AP, same for bruisers like singed. So when you give people the ability of building 800 AP it will always be mages that will get benefit from it, and some assassins of course like fizz.

And they're all fineeven if riot reduces AP

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 20163 votes

If you look at it this way anyone can be broken by building ADC and dealing tons of damage. Of course if Skarner goes full AP he will be able to one shot someone once in a while but his whole kit will be useless appart from dealing damage and he will be way less efficient than if he builded bruiser.

And if Fizz and Viktor are the problem than just nerf those 2? They have always been very strong and super annoying to face even in the current patch so adding AP won't break them. They already one shot people what will be new?

doublelift fgDec 1, 20162 votes

ADC are broken not because of AD, because of crit and attack speed

Best princess EUDec 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0ve Is Blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OKm70BE6,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-01T15:44:35.617+0000)

And if Fizz and Viktor are the problem than just nerf those 2?

every AP champ are strong right now, why the fuck are you even arguing?

on top of my head Ziggs Azir are the only one who sucks, because they need too much items unlike the other who spikes only with morello. like 90% of mages are played mid and nothing else, it's just logical to nerf them (for once since adc are never nerfed) so we can have something else mid.

ZT XperimentorDec 1, 20163 votes

Victor was reworked, long before the mage sweep.

UlriahDec 1, 201612 votes

item 3165 AP increased from 80 to 100 item 3089 AP ratio increased to 35% from 30% item 3003 AP increased to 80 from 60 item 3151 AP increased to 80 from 50 item 3135 AP increased to 80 from 70

So the actual AP ''removed'' from the game is 145 - 80 - 5% gained from item 3089 , since nowadays you claim that you can ''barely'' reach around 600, that means 30 bonus AP, that means that the actual AP we're going to lose is 35. Considering all the utility from the added items, 35 AP is NOTHING.

So how about we stop creating biased BS arguments?

DivewingDec 1, 20168 votes

Yeah but the difference between your items and OP's is that time was EVERY Mage built OP's items. Liandry's is niche, archangels requires low cooldown spammable spells and gimps your early game barring Ryze, which essentially becomes 50AP you are generalising for all mages when there's only a handful that actually benefit from it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's not as absolute as "we lost X amount" and "actually it was only this amount"

Critmaster GarenDec 2, 201612 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0ve Is Blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OKm70BE6,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-01T13:52:55.485+0000) What did we get in compensation?

item 3165 + 25 ap item 3151 + 20 ap item 3040 + 20 ap item 3027 + 20 ap fully stacked. (seriously, fucking stop)

item 1082 for a smooth transition into a buffed item 3041

item 3157 + 10% cdr and a cheaper price, so you can buy it before getting fucking destroyed by the assassin in your lane.

item 3065 - 15 mr item 3102 - 200 health item 3105 - mr aura

item 3001 + 10% cdr + mr for yourselves

a fuckton of health on your items and extra cdr

Chamuel85Dec 1, 201610 votes

Isn't item 3116 still 100AP?

Didn't some of those items get cheaper and now have CDR?

What mages built item 3078 or item 3060 regularly?

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 201612 votes

Rylai is nerfed next patch

CDR is just omnipresent now, it's harder to not get 40% CDR than to have it nowaday. You can use your spells more often now but they deal less damage.

I put trinity and Banner appart of the rest for this exact reason

Chamuel85Dec 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0ve Is Blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OKm70BE6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-01T14:08:43.066+0000)

Rylai is nerfed next patch

got ya. Didn't know that.

[{quoted}](name=L0ve Is Blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OKm70BE6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-01T14:08:43.066+0000)

CDR is just omnipresent now, it's harder to not get 40% CDR than to have it nowaday. You can use your spells more often now but they deal less damage.

I guess that I didn't know most mage builds got 40% CDR. I thought most built like item 3165 item 3020 item 3089 item 3001 item 3135 item 3157 item 3116 item 3285 item 3027 (not all at once though cuz... too many items). Which is admittedly 40% cdr if you get Abyssal and Zhonya's whcih I guess I don't see mages always get. Also, isn't that also the two mage items that got CDR tacked onto them from your list? I'm not a mage main so I'm in the dark there. It just seems like you easily get 40% CDR because of the additional CDR they gave to those two items.

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 20164 votes

Most if not all mages get AT LEAST Morello+Zhonya or Abyssal, wich is 30% CDR. If you have full scaling CDR runes you get to about 44% CDR I think. I you have mixed scaling CDR+Anything else (I do scaling CDR+Mana regen) you get about 40% CDR.

Basicaly yes you get the extra CDR from Zhonya and Abyssal. I would prefer Zhonya having 100 AP and no CDR like it used to have, this way we get a little more AP and those poor assassin can actualy stand a chance after 90% of them got gutted in the assassin update. Seriously I feel bad at how fast you can get Zhonya because it's so cheap and let's be honest the active is so good it's a must buy in 90% of the time so lowering the AP won't make it less bought.

Sahn UzalDec 1, 201610 votes

item 3152 adds another AP Ratio to the rotation of mages who can use it. MR went down across the board with the item 3190 nerf.

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 20164 votes

Only a few mages can use protobelt effectively, that's not an excuse.

And I agree Locket was super fine the way it was, and it's still built every game anyway because of how strong the shield is.

Sahn UzalDec 1, 20168 votes

Shrugs

Protobelt is a thing, therefor it's a factor that has to be considered. You can thank Xypherous for that one :P

Locket was build in every single game just because of how stupidly good it was. The nerfs to that item were a buff to mages (and Corki) across the board, and that is also a factor to keep in mind.

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 20161 votes

Protobelt is a thing for like 10 champions and this thread is about the maximum AP available. Protobelt gives 60 AP that's about as much as a support item.

Sahn UzalDec 1, 20166 votes

It has low base stats BECAUSE it adds another AP Ratio to your rotation...

tseihaiDec 1, 201610 votes

It wasn't too long ago people were complaining about damage creep in the game...

Papa AndreiDec 2, 20163 votes

Just damage as a whole should be downgraded ALOT. 4 autos at level 1 should not be able to kill most champions. Maybe this is just me and i like slow strategy games and not reaction games.

BorblandDec 1, 20169 votes

I am a mage main (Vel'Koz, Zyra mid and Lux for the curious) and I seriously dont care how high my AP is. The only thing that matters is winning your game and feeling like you do damage. I think we can agree that current mages deal reasonable amount of damage (Some even more then reasonable cough Syndra cough Viktor cough).

If you want to have the pleasure of having 1000 AP, I suggest you play Veigar, but else, mages are absolutly not in a bad shape right now.

VesemirDec 1, 20163 votes

i had a 878 ap lux game today. Literally killed Brand with 70% of his hp with 1 ult. He had abyssal aswell. I dont get this mages are weak threads. And fed Lux feels so good :D 18/1/x

DeathBurstDec 1, 20168 votes

Unfair comparison:

you didn't count Morello being buffed.
you didn't count Seraph being buffed by Mana regen being converted to flat Mana.
you're counting Athene, even though there are tons of other better item suited for a Mid Mage with far more than 40 AP, and even more than the old 60 AP.
you're counting Rylai at 100 whereas it was increased to 100 when the others were decreased, you can't take the better from each side if you try to compare the two sides... (EDIT: hmm, apparently not, this dates back to 4.13...)
same for Blue buff, it was given the %AP with the MYMU, not at the time you're trying to compare.

L0ve Is BlueDec 1, 20163 votes

Removing AP from high AP items and putting more in low AP items doesn't keep the maximum AP available. If you go for the build that gives you the maximum AP possible in patch 5.0 and do the same in patch 6.0 the maximum amount of AP you get will be very different. Some items that had less AP got a little more, but that doesn't increase the amount of AP available. It lowers it because none of these said items get to a level where they provide more AP than the items that were nerfed.

DeathBurstDec 1, 20164 votes

Morello was in the "highest AP possible build" in patch 5.0.
Athene can easily be replaced by GLP for a sizeable +20 AP in 6.24 compared to 5.0
Zhonya can be replaced by Seraph, for a huge buff in AP, especially if you have Morello and GLP which both provide Mana. You lose the utility and defense from Zhonya, but old Zhonya was just overloaded (just as Rylai was, hence the recent nerf) and you don't lose AP compared to the previous "highest AP possible build".

TL;DR: if you want high late-game AP in modern times, build a fucking Seraph! Yeah, your early game will be bad, no sh*t Sherlock. You can't have both early game power spike AND late game scaling builds. Deal with it.