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The new AP Shiv is BRILLIANT

Hyrum Graff··44 votes·7,832 views
2/18 PBE Update:

If you didn't hear, there's a new AP item up on the PBE, as of yesterday. With 120 AP and 7% MS, it works like a statikk shiv for AP champions, building charges on move or spell cast. It's exactly what AP itemization needs; here's why:

  • It brings waveclear to mana champs in a low-regen world.

    • One of the reasons playing against Zed is so annoying is that he can push lane all day and simply run you oom. That's not fun gameplay. With this item, mana champs can now waveclear with far fewer spells, allowing them to compete with manaless / energy champs in this regard.

  • It gives AP assassins a little post-dfg love.

    • Ever since the removal of DFG, that burst hasn't quite been as bursty. Now, if you catch a hapless enemy out, you'll have just a little more damage to punish them for their mistake.

"But if it's exactly what every AP mid wants, won't it become a mandatory rush item and crowd out other picks?" -Skeptic

Actually, no.

Zhonya's is a strong defensive pick. Deathcap still gives an unparalleled amount of AP / power spike. As long as there are other similar items who do different jobs better, there are reasons to rush those items instead. Yes, it will be core on some champs, but the same can be said of nearly every other item in the game.

Bravo, items team. I'm looking forward to playing with the new item.

154 Comments

Celeste Benal21 votes

Came expecting a huge buff to Shyvana. Left disappointed.

Blackwindy18 votes

Shiv =/= Shyv

blueberrypancake3 votes

Her ult and e have ap scaling.

F****** AP SHYVANA B****

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Stattik Shyvana pls skin team.

SpecterVonBaren15 votes

And I have yet to see anyone mention my favorite top laner in these conversations for the new item. Rumble

Why yes, I would like some movespeed to keep on my targets with Flamespitter. Why yes, I can stack this thing ridiculously fast with my manaless spells and movespeed on w.

aaronconlin12 votes

This new item + item 3087 +Kennen = ALL THE LIGHTNING

Kojiro Sasaki2 votes

You mean Volibear, yes?

Serenity Now7 votes

What it does is promote mobile AP champions, such as LeBlanc, Akali, Ahri, and Katarina, and spammy AP champions, such as Ziggs, Ryze, and Cass.

Are you seeing the problem yet? Once again, traditional mages with low mobility and/or long CDs are left out in the cold, while these examples of difficult to balance champions are rewarded.

That the item gives MS is good, but it should be paired with CDR instead of bonus damage that rewards mobility and spam. MS + CDR is what traditional mages need, and what the above champions do not need.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OJ3AOLhe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-19T13:06:12.190+0000)

What it does is promote mobile AP champions, such as LeBlanc, Akali, Ahri, and Katarina, and spammy AP champions, such as Ziggs, Ryze, and Cass.

Are you seeing the problem yet?

Fair point.

Once again, traditional mages with low mobility and/or long CDs are left out in the cold. It's exactly what we didn't need.

But I'm going to disagree here. I think it's exactly what we needed... and we also need another item to help traditional, low-mobility, long-cd mages.

Knight SoIaire 4 votes

But I'm going to disagree here. I think it's exactly what we needed... and we also need another item to help traditional, low-mobility, long-cd mages.

ill disagree with you here we cant make champions ballance all about one item meant for them if their ballance starts rewolwing around an item then the synergy with the itme will e dictating the tierlists, and other builds will be killed

new items are fine but they shouldnt shape the gameplay so much (dfg shaped the gameplay hard, and got removed for toxicity and champions got under powered since their power was only in that item )

Borbland3 votes

So you say mobile AP champs and spammy poke AP champs ?

What are the other champs ? Beside Morde (Which can still be great with that item)Veigar, Ryze (Who build mana anyway, any other 120 Ap item wouldn't benefit him except if it has mana (Anything with mana is fine for Ryze anyway)), I don't really see any other champ.

And why are those champs called "classic", there is no such thing as classic mage here in LoL, even if my personal definition of classic would be the skillshot champs, but that falls under your spammy poke champs, so it's not the same thing apparently

GLWuffie4 votes

So you say mobile AP champs and spammy poke AP champs ?

What are the other champs ? Beside Morde (Which can still be great with that item)Veigar, Ryze (Who build mana anyway, any other 120 Ap item wouldn't benefit him except if it has mana (Anything with mana is fine for Ryze anyway)), I don't really see any other champ.

And why are those champs called "classic", there is no such thing as classic mage here in LoL, even if my personal definition of classic would be the skillshot champs, but that falls under your spammy poke champs, so it's not the same thing apparently

Anivia: ...item 3070item 3070

~GL

Sozan54 votes

Annie Anivia Brand Chogath Galio Karthus Kennen Malzahar Mordekaiser Nunu Swain Syndra Veigar Viktor Vladimir Zilean Zyra

I suppose he meant mages like this.

Baron of Bread3 votes

I would say that Karthus will be utterly ridiculous with this item. 20 stacks on cast? 1 second cooldown? That will be fun.

Auz the Ripper5 votes

And the bonus to his Ult

Vellich0r1 votes

on annie, it would be insane. Waveclear annie could easily be a thing.

Sozan51 votes

Annie already waveclears whole wave with just one big item, so I don't think it would make much difference in that aspect (it would however improve her burst). Also, I never stated that it's going to be bad on those champions - just wanted to list all non-spammy poke, non-mobility mages.

Vellich0r1 votes

but annie is SOOOO spammy. her lane phase consists of spamming a two second cooldown ability whenever a minion gets even a little low, this plus the ap shiv would make it so that she could max Q even more easily with no worry about losing waveclear, and if she is against a low waveclear champ she just saves the shiv spell to poke with Q whenever the shiv charges. It would make playing annie even more brutally simple and would cover most of her major weaknesses.

Sozan51 votes

Her only major weakness is her low range.

The other ones are very minor at best.

Vellich0r1 votes

and what happens when all of a champions minor weaknesses are covered up? If you max W you have great waveclear, maxing Q gives you great damage, excellent farming and mana sustain, targeted poke, and if you rush the AP shiv you suddenly have great waveclear also.

Sozan51 votes

Not much happens when minor weaknesses are covered. The things that the champions was good at stay the same, so does his/hers weaknesses.

Also, I wouldn't really call a 100 +15% AP a great waveclear tool. With just the AP Shiv and Doran you would deal around 125 damage which is rather underwhelming - especially since Annie have limited mobility (she can only walk around) and can't stack it too fast. So no, it wouldn't give you excellent farming and her W actually deals more damage than Q anyway (at ranks 2+), so there is little reason to max Q first (unless you can constantly harass your oponent with Q, in which case it is going to be better - but it's also not the case usually).

Vellich0r1 votes

A lot happens when minor weaknesses are covered up, Q is MUCH more DPS than W (like 2 or three times as much) it would be more like 130 damage to every minion, with 20 stacks per spell cast she would have it every 10 seconds if she stood still and used her Q to last hit only (it is about 2 second cooldown if you last hit with it, which isnt difficult) the spammable Q plus autoattacks, plus AP shiv would burn through waves in moments, you should always max Q first for its incredible sustain and easy farming ability as well as its high DPS, and if you add 130 damage to every 3rd Q it bumps your DPS even higher (and thats assuming you arent using other abilities in addition to your Q) and once the AP shiv reaches mid game with zhonya and rabbadons you are looking at almost 600 AP giving you around 190 damage to multiple champs/minions every couple seconds with the rate of spam on annie, and the DPS you are gaining is crazy with the high ratios on annies spells plus the relatively low cooldown of Q. It waveclears, adds to burst (A lot if you really look at it,) and fits so well with annie.

Nausicäa 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OJ3AOLhe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-19T13:06:12.190+0000)

What it does is promote mobile AP champions, such as LeBlanc, Akali, Ahri, and Katarina, and spammy AP champions, such as Ziggs, Ryze, and Cass.

Are you seeing the problem yet? Once again, traditional mages with low mobility and/or long CDs are left out in the cold, while these examples of difficult to balance champions are rewarded.

That the item gives MS is good, but it should be paired with CDR instead of bonus damage that rewards mobility and spam. MS + CDR is what traditional mages need, and what the above champions do not need.

I think the problem here is with your definition of a 'traditional mage'. What exactly is that? Seems to me your understanding of that is an old mage that captures Riot's older design philosophy ie Anivia, Lux, Malazahar.

Well have you ever stopped to think that there is a reason we dont see mages like this anymore? Because Riot's old design philosophy for mages simply isnt good and doesnt work well.

Notice most if not all 'traditional mages' are out of the meta or just not very good? It has nothing to do with mobility or bad itemization it has to do with their design. Most mages with long cooldowns are not very good simply because they fall off late game due to low DPS, furthermore if you miss a skill your effectiveness takes a nosedive because it wont come back for another 7+ seconds.

Serenity Now2 votes

{quoted} Notice most if not all 'traditional mages' are out of the meta or just not very good? It has nothing to do with mobility or bad itemization it has to do with their design.

This makes no sense. Mobility is part and parcel of champion design.

When mage A and mage B can do the same amount of damage, but mage B has mobility, you're going to pick mage B every time.

We have a mobility oriented meta because mobility is power. This new item rewards kits with mobility, further locking in that meta.

AmazingGoat4 votes

No offense, but it seems retarded to me that champs with AoE magic abilities should have to use a special item in the shop to clear waves efficiently. Immobile mages should be the best at wave clear. It just makes sense. It makes no sense that mana-less assassins can clear waves faster.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

{quoted}

No offense, but it seems retarded to me that champs with AoE magic abilities should have to use a special item in the shop to clear waves efficiently. Immobile mages should be the best at wave clear. It just makes sense.

I generally agree with you. That being said, there are plenty of champs with AoE magic abilities who aren't immobile mages. IMO, it's fine for AoE magic abilities to be unable to clear, as long as the AoE magic abilities on immobile mages are able to clear.

It makes no sense that mana-less assassins can clear waves faster.

To be fair, I can't think of any other manaless assassins with Zed-tier waveclear.

PatMcGroyn3 votes

And to be fair, if Zed uses his W - E - Q on minions, it drains all his engery, and makes him basically useless and immobile until his energy regens. The Zed QQ is beyond ridiculous.

Skoonie5 votes

Meanwhile an AP mid who uses mana can do the same thing. but don't regen nearly as fast. I like Zed well enough, but you have to admit his ability to safely farm without putting himself in any danger--and being as efficient at it as most mana users--is pretty ridiculous.

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

and one reason that can make this item bad if it impacts the ballance hard bringing a lot of power to champions whos kit's work with it well, then we can get another dfg problem where champiopns are ballanced around the item and other builds get killed for them (syndra is the example, ww is prolly the same )

Zhonya's is a strong defensive pick. Deathcap still gives an unparalleled amount of AP / power spike. As long as there are other similar items who do different jobs better, there are reasons to rush those items instead. Yes, it will be core on some champs, but the same can be said of nearly every other item in the game.

those items have their roles but zhonya is barely ever a first item unless you face zed (and ppl already hate that fact since zed counterbuilds you by default)

rabbadons is the king of ap ut still late gamw

but the new static shiw doesnt have any role, it enhances the gameplay owerall by new mechanic ppl who synergize with it might rush the item and the item will become their dfg (an item that defines their playstyle, and shapes their ballance) that is bad

Borbland3 votes

Reminds me of Dawngate's Chaos :3

But hey, great item, I thing I'll buy it on Ziggs or Zyra for bonus poking.

Saevum2 votes

Moving or casting?

OMG..

God tier: Cassiopeia Karthus Syndra Elise Annie

tier 1: Ahri Kassadin Nidalee Kayle Teemo Anivia

(Taking the most advantage of the item) Still uncertain about [Kayle]. But the others, yeah, pretty much those.

Edit: forgot Annie.

The Paulrus2 votes

{quoted}

Moving or casting?

OMG..

God tier: Cassiopeia Karthus Syndra Elise

tier 1: Ahri Kassadin Nidalee Kayle Teemo

(Taking the most advantage of the item) Still uncertain about [Kayle]. But the others, yeah, pretty much those.

totally going to try a double shiv Teemo . Pop out of stealth with a shock AA and a shock blind. Would be great waveclear.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

Ezreal item 3087 item 3087 Gangplank master race

Actually, I think Ezreal item 3087 item 3087 item 3004 item 3025 will be pretty good. AP shiv makes you do even more hybrid damage midgame, and duo speed items plus gauntlet should make you not need boots.

Saevum2 votes

New Question:

Would this new Shyv proc with item 3151 or item 3116?

Knight SoIaire 4 votes

nida goes to god tier she can pounce to stack the item faster, and spears will be easier to oneshot with

Saevum2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OJ3AOLhe,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-02-19T14:11:56.335+0000)

nida goes to tier 1 she can pounce to stack the item faster, and spears will be easier to oneshot with

Im uncertain to put her God tier cause:

  1. This item will be like her 4th-5th purchase.
  2. God tier - Those champs can buy it as their 2nd~3rd item. They don't heavily rely on Cooldown.
  3. Nidalee already has pounce as movement advantage. And she needs more cooldown to be really effective.
Knight SoIaire 3 votes

This item will be like her 4th-5th purchase.

120 ap , she will take it second i think

And she needs more cooldown to be really effective.

her cooldowns are low already, her mana costs arent too big too

i dont see her having any core items she would need to take before it

5G8Nri0B542 votes

This item looks neat. However it worries me that it's just going to make assassins much more bursty.

I can't even begin to imagine what this will do on Leblanc.

Saevum4 votes

Siv HD will let us know. Don't worry.

Hyrum Graff7 votes

{quoted}

This item looks neat. However it worries me that it's just going to make assassins much more bursty.

More bursty? Sure. But not as bursty as with DFG, I think (although the burst will be up more reliably).

I can't even begin to imagine what this will do on Leblanc.

Yeah. Edit: credit where credit is due:

{quoted}

It's a mandatory rush on LeBlanc. Her W double procs it; the initial dash generates charges; the warp back to the platform generates more charges. As far as I can tell, a single W can generate nearly a full 100 charges.

However, I imagine this can be fixed pretty easily by changing the item so charges are only generated by putting an ability on cooldown, so W return doesn't fill it.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

So basically you should only be able to charge it by walking.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Yeah. Although I'm not sure if they have the tech to do that right now. Wouldn't hurt to develop it, though, so they can give walking and dashes different treatment in the future.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Yeah, all these stupidities of programming are so hard to understand. You would think that to do something you just have to check some boxes and write a few lines when it's actually rewriting the whole stuff sometimes. Now I wonder if Lee's ult charges the shiv.

junglerboy161 votes

to put it in perspective, it is about a third the burst of a Lich bane at this point, since it only deals 100+15% AP extra damage in comparison to 75% base AD (usually about ±80 damage at lvl 18) +50% AP. It will give a little more burst than not having it, of course, but in comparison to DFG, it is much more of a persistent DPS boost than a burst item, and is also more suited to AOE burst rather than single target burst (Champs like Viktor or Malz who focus on bursting groups of enemies all at once will probably enjoy this one more than someone like Leblanc). DFG's % health combined with the damage amp really outclass this item in terms of 100-0 burst, and this seems far more suited to champs who can churn out spells really fast for faster procs (think Cass or Kat, and maybe Akali, between twin fang spam and resets).

5G8Nri0B541 votes

I shouldn't be a Grammar Nazi, but...............Rich Bane.....

junglerboy161 votes

I hate auto spell check, I catch it most of the time, but it can be so sneaky...

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Wait, so spellcheck doesn't acknowledge the existence of Liches?

Kise1 votes

Is the burst worth it if you get this plus stattik shiv?

Hyrum Graff3 votes

Not really. But if you're just messing around... who doesn't want ALL the lightning?

Vellich0r2 votes

OH MY GOD, DOUBLE LIGHTNING KENNEN. he already has great synergy with attack speed and AoE magic damage. Imagine running into a team and proccing both of these, your W AND your ult. so much lightning. so much waveclear. Wow.

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