I don't think Ahri is exactly the problem.

Linna Excel··48 votes·4,376 views

A lot of people have been concerned with Ahri, but since she hasn't been tweaked in a long time, I don't think she's the problem directly. I think the problem was riot screwed up the MYMU and what happened afterwards kind of left Ahri in a good spot. Now look at the current meta in the midlane and jungle and you see that it favors her in some ways.

  1. Malz is no longer found mid as much anymore. He sees more support time now, which might prevent her from roaming bot, but doesn't help mid.
  2. Swain isn't a counter like he used to be thanks to the MYMU. Looks like more of a skill matchup now. Or rather, it seems like Ahri can probably gank bot in a timely manner can that's helping to win shorter games.
  3. ~~People forgot about Annie. Midlaners don't know how to play her anymore and I think riot's balanced her too much for bot. ~~ Edit: okay after doing a little homework, annie is going mid more often than I thought, but it seems like she lost the a lot of the burst that made her a threat to Ahri.
  4. Leblanc just got nerfed and every time that happens, leblanc mains turn to Ahri. Every leblanc main is technically an Ahri main given how much riot nerfs LB.
  5. Fizz has a slight advantage over her, but he's not played so much. Kind of the same with the other skill match ups. People forgot who can contend with her and give her headaches. Like Anivia.
  6. I think not being able to get rylai's has hurt other midlaners ability to slow ahri down and deny her some mobility. It gave mids a bunch of stats and that slow, but it's not worth anymore.
  7. Not enough point and click CC in the game anymore. That really screwed Ahri over in the past.
  8. I think this jungle meta is helping Ahri. I'm looking at the meta junglers in higher elos and the amount of hard CC is sorely lacking. Ahri thrives in low CC environments.

So I'd like to propose something radical to deal with Ahri. First, give leblanc a small buff so her mains stop picking waifuichi. That'll drop Ahri's play rate a few points right there. Now for the thing riot should do but never does: help out the champs who can keep ahri in check. Encourage Annie, Malz, and maybe brand back into mid. See why swain doesn't counter her like he used to. Then maybe buff some of the CC junglers a little.

Or just revert the MYMU.

Second idea: I hate to say this, but given the circumstances I think I have to: move her movespeed boost from her Q to a second benefit for her empowered passive. She'll usually use it on her Q anyways, but it won't be up as often. As an added bonus it'll work on other spells and give her a benefit to casting an empowered spell while her HP is full. Better yet, maybe make how much MS you get scale with how many things you hit with it and what you with with it (more MS for hitting champs). That way it'll have synergy with the existing passive, you can still balance it around her Orb, and she'll get potentially bigger/longer but less frequent movespeed bursts.

Expression of skill and all that.

86 Comments

Sexy Jack Rabbit14 votes

I agree with everything except for Annie. As far as it goes she's not balanced for bot by any means.

Since her range nerfs she's been solely taken midlane, as she's too easily out-ranged, out-poked and out-tanked in bot-lane. If anything Annie stands out as one of the fewer mid-laners who can still contest Ahri, as she has consistent point and click CC, anti-burst and counter-burst. Alongside Exhaust + Flash it's a pretty easy lane for Annie, as she matches ahri in range.

She's just not generally popular due to her linear playstyle.

Emell8 votes

Hey look, they picked Ahri. Let's pick a tank and make her absolutely useless.

Nah man I'm gonna play Jayce/Riven top, Kha'Zix jg, Ori mid and Sona support. Man we can't stop Ahri she's so OP we picked almost no CC or tankiness(her direct counters).

You wanna stomp Ahri in lane or in the game in general? Pick Nautilus or Cho'gath, build some MR and shove the wave in. She'll never kill you, you have amazing gank assistance and she'll lose CS if she roams.

Also, have your support build a locket. Now even with items she won't be bursting a squishy in one combo.

Great job, fellow league players, you've just made the Ahri player hate life.

Keevalroy3 votes

Great job, fellow league players, you've just made the Ahri player hate life.

Jokes on you, I already hated life.

2Charmnot2Charm2 votes

Holy shit you reminded me of the cancer when cho gath mid was popular for a while in season 4/5. (Can't remember which of those two seasons it was.)

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

people say 'pick a tank with cc' as if that isn't generally what you should do in a teamcomp......

that's not counterplay to ahri that's counterplay to like every carry in the game

GULAG 4 U7 votes

It's common sense. When other competitors fall, one takes over. And ahri has been performing very well for a very long time, so that's that.

Oelyk7 votes

Just gonna say, every assassin thrives in low CC environments, while immobile mages and some ADC's suffer due to peel and such. (Also, I like how you have the balls to suggest buffing Leblanc on boards, you are a real hero)

Chibi Bronzlife6 votes

That's some of the most solid analytical skills that I've seen on this board.

PureSilvrr5 votes

Malz was fine until the spellshield nerfs, then the movespeed nerfs, then, what brought him bot finally was the 6.23 W changes....

Beacon Academy18 votes

Malz was fine before the MYMU

They literally got a bunch of immobile mages together and came up with magical bullshit to tell us why some champions who weren't massively hated, played, or banned needed to change.

All because they had to keep things fair after they did that whole ADC update.

Bisaknosp4 votes

only reason why she is picked much is because all the champions that are good against her are not picked often xd and tbh i dont think she needs any nerfs if that the case

Cassiopeia Diana Fizz Katarina Orianna Syndra Yasuo Zed

while some of these are skill matchups i think these are the champions that do best against her

idontgiveabother3 votes

They need to cut down her mobility and true damage. Feels like an assassin, not a mage.

DuskDaUmbreon13 votes

Her secondary role is assassin...

Keevalroy8 votes

Since 5.2, she's not an assassin anymore, just an obnoxious mobility creeped spammer.

50000000000000005 votes

She's classified as a skirmisher now, who is characterized by having a lot of mobility and high %pen and/or true damage.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Where was this noted? Because she's listed as a Burst Mage.

50000000000000001 votes

My mistake, she was never officially categorized as a skirmisher. I was confused because I've been going to lol wiki a lot recently. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ahri says she's mage primary, and slayer secondary.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

And Slayer's subclasses are Assassin/Skirmisher where she doesn't meet the criteria for Skirmisher at all since thats for champs like Fiora and Yasuo. mADCs really.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

um.....no?

50000000000000001 votes

yeah, mb. I was confused/mistaken. This deserves downvoting myself

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

np np

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

What about Zed? Or Yasuo? Both, I have found, are a royal pain in the ass for Ahri. Hell, most assassins are.

Or the top can just pick Pantheon, and crush Ahri no matter what happens...

Sraeg20133 votes

The joke is that Ahri's been a top tier pick ever since DFG was removed.

Which was January 2015.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

A Tier, never S tier.

Sraeg20131 votes

A 10-20% pickrate with a stable 52-54% winrate for over two years straight.

Mid laners been called "S tier" with worse stats.

ÈvilMorty3 votes

honestly i think Katarina is more of a problem now

Linna Excel2 votes

In the right hands, yes katarina is better than she was.

ÈvilMorty2 votes

i mean no resources to manage, short cool downs, big dick damage, can rush mr and still 100-0 mages, insane mobility and roaming power

sobi9992 votes

Ahri is popular in LCS now because her counterpart LB is nerfed. Both have burst and insane mobility although they have slightly different roles but really both are assassins. Ahri has always maintained a good winrate/playrate for as long as she wasn't tweaked.

planters2 votes

No. Ahri has been OP for a while. It happened back when Riot removed that ap cdr item deathfire grasp and buffed a bunch of champions to compensate for it. They added the MS buff to her Q which made her way to strong. Thanks to her Q she has wave clear, her kit gives her healing her e gives her cc and her ult is 3 dashses. What does this all combine to mean? In lane she is almost ungankable pre and ESPECIALLY post 6. At 3 if you want you can wave clear sustain and run towards your tower keeping yourself relatively hard to gank as jungler. Her free sustain means that as soon as she get a lost chapter she can stay in lane for practically forever with enough mana and HP. If jg ganks you can use charm defensively and combined with q it will be difficult to get a kill. Once she gets ult it becomes nearly impossible to kill her unless she becomes overly aggressive. Let's be clear, that's a fault of the player, not the champion. This gets worse when you realize that thanks to her q sustain, and lost chapter mana sustain as ahri you can

1 push lane 2 gank bot 3 buy boots and other items (this buying part is optional) 4 run back to lane without missing a single CS

consistently. I know this because right after they did the change I wanted to learn ahri and found that yes I could do this consistently. Am I saying she is unbeatable. NO of course not. She can be bursted down and CC'd to death. What I AM saying is that Ahri's strengths have been stupidly amazing for a while and for all the changes that have occurred she has always been in the sleeper OP class just waiting for the right conditions to become way to strong. Her biggest limits are her difficulty and other midlaners had unique strengths for a while that made them more ideal. However, with the rise of assassins it was only a matter of time before ahri became popular because she does quite well into most of them and can out roam some of the hard.

Linna Excel3 votes

I wouldn't call her overpowered.

I don't feel like she's pick/ban despite being good. She's not overwhelmingly broken. I mean yes she's had a good win rate, but she's never been oppressive or lacking in skill matchups. People have had options to deal with her. Last I checked her win rate was still under 54% even if she is edging close to it.

planters2 votes

That's the thing though, even before that buff Ahri was fine. With it I feel her laning became OP because one point in time to beat her and set her back was all but nullified. Now she does reasonable damage and many of her strengths are not insane. But her weaknesses don't feel particularly weak compared to other champions and her strengths are numerous. Compare her to annie from a tactical/strategic standpoint. Annie can CC and do damage. Ahri has many options because she can heal run fast CC, dash through terrain etc. This means that if Ahri and annie are equal in power, Ahri will always be better than annie because she has more options. To balance this, ahri has less damage, but the problem i am illuminating is that her other pathways are way too numerous and need to be stripped or reduced until more meaningful weakness can be made.

arcinex2 votes

LCS has a bunch of p*ssy mid laners. They pick 'safe' meta champions and won't stray away from their small champion pool unless a LCK mid laner plays something new and that's why they'll keep getting fucked over by Ahri and Syndra.

You write as if Ahri is unwinnable to play against which is NOT true.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

Holy shit you Boards folk are hypocritical as hell. This guy is suggesting that instead of nerfing the champions who are strong, we buff everyone else. Didn't you all just agree that damage creep was the result of Riot not nerfing the OP's but instead buffing everyone else to match the OP's?

Goddamn, you guys. Just because someone is polite and has reasonably explained ideas doesn't mean they're right.

Khadaver2 votes

It's not like one person is contradicting themself, just conflicting opinions.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

It's not like one person is contradicting themself, just conflicting opinions.

Yeah but since both of those ideas got a lot of upvotes...

Dracocrash1 votes

Fizz has 0 advantage over ahri.

Lets assume fizz lands a long range ult -> ahri dashes away. Fizz can't do shit.

There's no way a good ahri will actually die to someone as telegraphed in lane as fizz.

She can also outrange, outpoke and outfarm him really easily once she gets her lost chapter, the best fizz can hope to do in this lane is go even.

All ahri needs to do is wait for fizz to use his E and charm him at the landing.

Inb4"a good fizz will wait for ahri to use charm" uhh except fizz maxes E and thats where 60% of his damage comes from early game , so if both ahri and fizz hold on to their E, ahri wins no problemo.

CppL4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Wizfact EUW,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OIGsbF0y,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-14T07:59:57.080+0000)

Fizz has 0 advantage over ahri.

Lets assume fizz lands a long range ult -> ahri dashes away. Fizz can't do shit.

There's no way a good ahri will actually die to someone as telegraphed in lane as fizz.

She can also outrange, outpoke and outfarm him really easily once she gets her lost chapter, the best fizz can hope to do in this lane is go even.

All ahri needs to do is wait for fizz to use his E and charm him at the landing.

Inb4"a good fizz will wait for ahri to use charm" uhh except fizz maxes E and thats where 60% of his damage comes from early game , so if both ahri and fizz hold on to their E, ahri wins no problemo.

You do now you can dodge her charm without E ,like sidesteping.Plus after Q buffs ,you can max Q first vs ahri.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

she has dps, burst, mobility and good laning, leaving her without a real weakness - so yea, she pretty much is the problem.

Linna Excel6 votes
  1. she's weak to CC
  2. she's low health
  3. she's very easy to kill when her ult is down.
  4. going in for the kill makes you very vulnerable and you have to be careful about it.
  5. she has to manage her mana some, and missing the charm (easy) is punishing.
AHeroNamedHawke4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OIGsbF0y,comment-id=000c0001,timestamp=2017-03-14T21:46:21.505+0000)

  1. she's weak to CC
  2. she's low health
  3. she's very easy to kill when her ult is down.
  4. going in for the kill makes you very vulnerable and you have to be careful about it.
  5. she has to manage her mana some, and missing the charm (easy) is punishing.
  1. You can queue dashes through CC, allowing her to reactively ult in response to one and position in a safer place. By the time it wears off her next charge is up, and she can reposition again. Not only that, but short ranged champions are the ones actually "weak to CC", because they're exposed to more of it. Being highly mobile with 800 range is the literal opposite of "weak to CC"
  2. She has 12 less health than Yasuo at 6. Twelve.
  3. Except she isn't, because she'll be playing safely throwing Qs at 800 range with her 200 bonus movement speed
  4. I dont even know what this is supposed to mean. All inning champions is dangerous, no shit sherlock
  5. LITERALLY EVERY MID LANER WITH MANA. Maybe if she had some actual costs I'd believe you. Missing charm again isn't punishing either, because its at 1000 range.
NineTailedMystic1 votes

Ahri's Mana costs are pretty decent. Not the highest, but not "nonexistent" like you're making it out to be. If you want to look to why Mana isn't an issue anymore, look at Lost Chapter.

Missing Charm is very punishing. She cannot do anything for 12 seconds, in essence.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

{quoted}

Ahri's Mana costs are pretty decent. Not the highest, but not "nonexistent" like you're making it out to be. If you want to look to why Mana isn't an issue anymore, look at Lost Chapter.

Missing Charm is very punishing. She cannot do anything for 12 seconds, in essence.

That's nothing. Punishing is supposed to imply your opponent can do something, force you away or trade back favourably. If you're sitting at 1000 range, and then flee with 500 MS, they cannot do anything

And 12 seconds isnt even very long, when Zed misses his combo he's got no threat for the next 22 seconds

NineTailedMystic1 votes

So? When Syndra misses her E stun from 1100 range, there's nothing the enemy laner can do if they can't gap close immediately. If Anivia misses her Q she can just put down R and walk away.

Zed is also an outlier, not the norm.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

{quoted}

So? When Syndra misses her E stun from 1100 range, there's nothing the enemy laner can do if they can't gap close immediately. If Anivia misses her Q she can just put down R and walk away.

Zed is also an outlier, not the norm.

Then why did you claim it was punishing? Even Syndra's E is on a 16 second cooldown, and requires her Q to be up as well. She has no other defensive mechanisms when she does miss it besides range, whereas Ahri gets to both sprint away and dash if she feels like it. One of these things is not like the others

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Because it is punishing. Just like how Syndra or Anivia don't want to be near their laner when they miss their CC, Ahri doesn't either. She just has a tool to play keep away with. Because that's her gameplay pattern. Playing keep away and bursting squishies when the opportunity presents itself.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

{quoted}

Because it is punishing. Just like how Syndra or Anivia don't want to be near their laner when they miss their CC, Ahri doesn't either. She just has a tool to play keep away with. Because that's her gameplay pattern. Playing keep away and bursting squishies when the opportunity presents itself.

And neither of them have multiple methods to immediately change the range they're at. Anivia can at best get a good wall off and/or slow them, while Syndra can only float away or throw a dinky slow

Simply stating "that's what they're designed to do" doesn't really mean anything when their design provides no opportunity for counterplay

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I don't know how Ahri would play keep away without her R. I don't care either way about the Q ms.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

{quoted}

I don't know how Ahri would play keep away without her R. I don't care either way about the Q ms.

And her ult is fine. Burst mobility with an opportunity cost, that being the cooldown, isn't a problem at all. When you get that on top of high movement from a basic ability, while also being ranged with hard CC, you have a problem

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