Here's an honest question towards players that dislike playing against Zoe:

chipndip1·Jul 1, 2018·3 votes·1,187 views

Have any of you ever tried itemizing against Zoe before? Serious question.

Any time I go up against a Zoe, if she even starts kinda looking like she's edging it out in lane, my first full build support item is , same for when I see Lux, Morgana, or Ashe on the enemy team. However, I don't see my mid laners buy , I don't see my fighters buy , and I don't see my carries buy unless I specifically tell them to.

So as much as people say she's "unfair" or what-not...have you guys actually been mentally invested into the match enough to work your itemization around her being there, in the same way we buy for Zed or take for Syndra?

29 Comments

HaIlMonitorJul 1, 20184 votes

A counter question:

Why is the only way to counter a champion items?

Look at it fully if you rush a Void item 3102 item 3020

And she has item 3285 item 3020 who does more in a team fight/skirmish at that point. And the reality is she probably blows you up anyways even if you rush the defensive items. Rushing defensive items right away make you worthless for a long time overall in the game and is a terrible design in a game. Now if item 3102 build out of item 1057 then maybe.

DW DianaJul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A counter question:

Why is the only way to counter a champion items?

Look at it fully if you rush a Void

And she has who does more in a team fight/skirmish at that point. And the reality is she probably blows you up anyways even if you rush the defensive items. Rushing defensive items right away make you worthless for a long time overall in the game and is a terrible design in a game. Now if build out of then maybe.

There used to be CHAMPIONS to do it but everyone hated on them so riot nerfed them to the ground...

HaIlMonitorJul 1, 20181 votes

Its because its a bad design. Like old zed you could QQS his ult so then what happens? Well as a player vs him you have to build one of the 2 items that counter him, then for zed it feels really bad when all of the enemy squishes cant be killed because they all have one of the items.

DW DianaJul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Its because its a bad design. Like old zed you could QQS his ult so then what happens? Well as a player vs him you have to build one of the 2 items that counter him, then for zed it feels really bad when all of the enemy squishes cant be killed because they all have one of the items.

I think you missed my point. What I'm saying is there used to be champions that countered her and most other hypermobile hypercarries, but then they were nerfed which is why you now get the fun of relying on items instead. This whole meta has revolved around lack of counters for these champions, and yet people keep on complaining about them and forgetting that THEY were the ones that asked riot for the counters to be nerfed to the point they couldn't counter them anymore.

chipndip1Jul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A counter question:

Why is the only way to counter a champion items?

You could dodge everything in her kit, too, but since you don't want to do that or can't, you can also just cleanse/spell shield/tank her kit.

Don't answer questions with questions unless you're actually going to answer the question.

Look at it fully if you rush a Void

And she has who does more in a team fight/skirmish at that point.

Well, if you rush Luden's, and she rushes Luden's, and you get popped, you don't get to cry that a burst mage bursted you. Just like if she got popped, you guys don't want to hear a Zoe complaining about it, either, right? It goes both ways.

And the reality is she probably blows you up anyways even if you rush the defensive items. Rushing defensive items right away make you worthless for a long time overall in the game and is a terrible design in a game.

I didn't tell you to buy Banshee's as a first item. I have room to do that since I'm a support player, but what I DID say is that my teammates will be 2/6/4 looking item 3285 like item 3907 this item 1058 and bitching in all chat.

HaIlMonitorJul 1, 20183 votes

You could dodge everything in her kit, too, but since you don't want to do that or can't, you can also just cleanse/spell shield/tank her kit.

Lol, yeah because its all on me to dodge... I forget I am playing vs AI that only throw spells in x situations.

Good luck with your worthless crusade defending a shit design champ.

Silly NeekoJul 1, 20181 votes

I mean, you already dodged logic in several posts of yours in this thread. Now if only you can dodge Zoe spells that well!

Youd be a Zoe's worst nightmare!

Its not a crusade, its information to make your life easier while playing against them. I know its hard concept, but maybe one day you will understand.

Malix FarwinJul 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A counter question:

Why is the only way to counter a champion items?

Look at it fully if you rush a Void

And she has who does more in a team fight/skirmish at that point. And the reality is she probably blows you up anyways even if you rush the defensive items. Rushing defensive items right away make you worthless for a long time overall in the game and is a terrible design in a game. Now if build out of then maybe.

The last time you even played against a Zoe was over a month ago and you didnt even attempt to itemize against her. Meanwhile you had not 1 but 2 games with her on your team and lost, both games she didnt even do well (4/8/2 and 11/9/9).

Second question, you do not need to itemize against her, they are just helpful when you are trying to get used to the matchup.

Third you do not even have to build that much to make her useless against you early, buy item 3111 and she'll never be able to get her combo off on you because the bubble will always drop well before she is done setting up her Q.

Lets be real here, people just want her gutted so they do not have to worry about learning how to deal with her which to be honest with you isn't that difficult but since nearly everyone here has less than 10 games play against her they do not know how to do that.

HaIlMonitorJul 2, 20182 votes

I mean you abuse her, so you opinion is invalid.

Crispy0SnakeJul 1, 20183 votes

You should only have to build around a champion if they're ahead, why doesn't Zoe have to go a defensive route every now and then?

Her ult has too short a cooldown, her W makes her too fast, her E projectile is either too fast or too wide, she just R autos you for 500 dmg with lich, it's the stupidest champion I've ever come across. I ban her all the time because I don't want her in the game

chipndip1Jul 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You should only have to build around a champion if they're ahead, why doesn't Zoe have to go a defensive route every now and then?

She does as much as anyone else. You guys just ignore it because you hate Zoe.

Like if Zed gets ahead, what the hell is Zoe going to do without a Zhonya's? She's got barely anything in her kit to save her from Zed's burst, especially if he's fed. Even her one hard cc is delayed and goes away the minute he takes damage.

Her ult has too short a cooldown, her W makes her too fast, her E projectile is either too fast or too wide, she just R autos you for 500 dmg with lich, it's the stupidest champion I've ever come across. I ban her all the time because I don't want her in the game

So her everything is too everything, is what I'm hearing from you.

Crispy0SnakeJul 1, 20182 votes

No it's because she can QRQ with pretty much no punishment every 6 seconds with the potential to do over 1000 dmg

Say what you want but any champ like that is awful

Like if Zed gets ahead

If Zed is vs any mage, that mage has to buy Zhonya's. If he's ahead then why is he ahead? You have to poke him down lvl 1 and 2 and deny him.

So her everything is too everything, is what I'm hearing from you.

Yep, she needs her numbers altered so tyhat she is both fun to play with and against

chipndip1Jul 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No it's because she can QRQ with pretty much no punishment every 6 seconds with the potential to do over 1000 dmg

Say what you want but any champ like that is awful

...then dodge the Q. Q is easy to dodge in most cases. If you can't dodge the Q, which is like almost all her damage, then you failed the skill check. That's why she puts people to sleep and hops over walls to land it, because without it it's super telegraphed and won't hit anything meaningful since all the meaningful targets are gonna be taking cover the moment she even begins to prep the Q.

Think of it like any other mage: If some mage is wiping the floor with you, would you REALLY skip ALL defensive items, or would you deny their burst combos? If you wouldn't buy Banshee for Zoe the same way you would for Syndra, Annie, or Lux, you're the problem, not Zoe.

If Zed is vs any mage, that mage has to buy Zhonya's. If he's ahead then why is he ahead? You have to poke him down lvl 1 and 2 and deny him.

And Zoe can be shoved in.

You can also dodge all her damage, save her passive.

She also has no escapes if you confirm on her with cc.

You can't ignore Zoe's weaknesses and then talk about Zed's in-lane weaknesses, since laning is when Zed's at his absolute strongest with the fewest weaknesses in comparison to his other game stages.

Yep, she needs her numbers altered so tyhat she is both fun to play with and against

You know that isn't going to happen because all you want is for her to be removed from the game.

Crispy0SnakeJul 2, 20183 votes

Pre rework nidalee had the same problem. If Nidalee's javelin did as much damage as Zoe's Q people would be up in arms saying "Nerf Nidalee"

Syndra, Annie, or Lux

These champions don't have a mobility spell or movement speed boost, the comparison is awful. If you stay a reasonable distance from those champions they can't do much. Zoe can just E you through a wall out of nowhere and just R flash and kill you. I play supp, getting a zoe bubble as I'm warding and then getting blown up by her Q just makes the game so awful to play.

Zed's level 1 and 2 are abysmal. If he uses W in lane he's immobile and prone to ganks.

You know that isn't going to happen because all you want is for her to be removed from the game.

No, I want her to have higher cooldowns so that if she misses her abilities she has a wider window for counterplay

I'd rather eat a bowl of razor blades and milk than play another game with Zoe in it.

chipndip1Jul 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Pre rework nidalee had the same problem. If Nidalee's javelin did as much damage as Zoe's Q people would be up in arms saying "Nerf Nidalee"

Nidalee's Q doesn't wind up and scream to the world that it's here before flying into someone. Zoe's Q's range is also dependent on her own position, so if she hits you with it, she's not a mile off in the fog of war. She's right there. Sure, she may be utilizing R, but she's relatively close at the time of impact.

These champions don't have a mobility spell or movement speed boost, the comparison is awful.

Then replace them with any other 3 ap champions. Your personal grievance doesn't change the point.

I play support, too. However, I use my head when I do so. You can literally just cleanse the E that you're so afraid of, and the item costs only 2.1k gold to buy.

Zed's level 1 and 2 are abysmal. If he uses W in lane he's immobile and prone to ganks.

Not even gonna bother on this.

No, I want her to have higher cooldowns so that if she misses her abilities she has a wider window for counterplay

She already has enough as is, regardless. She has ONE major damage spell in her entire kit. Nidalee, for comparison's sake, has her spear and the take down follow-up. Zoe literally has one move for any major damage or wave clear.

Crispy0SnakeJul 2, 20183 votes

A bubble coming through a wall is not screamed to the world. Watch the champ in competitive, she just throws E from out of vision, QRQ, dead. It's not fun to watch, it's ridiculous.

It's not fun to play against either.

Your response to her damage is "Just dodge it" or "Build Mikael's"

The first answer is ridiculous, you can't dodge every skillshot, especially when you're cc'd

"Only 2.1k" on a support budget is a lot. If you get Mikael's you often forgo items such as Redemption/Zeke's that are far more impactful. There are times when you have to ward and just chance that you don't get killed in the process

Also she can just auto you for 500 magic damage with her passive and lich, it used to be far worse before she got altered and now if she gets jumped on she often dies which is nice

Any champ that hits one ability and then one shots you for free is not fun, I'm not going to reply anymore because I've made my point. Accept it or not, I think the champion isn't fun to watch or play against, even when I'm playing with Zoe and I see her 1 shot an enemy champion I just think "pfft, great champion"

chipndip1Jul 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A bubble coming through a wall is not screamed to the world. Watch the champ in competitive, she just throws E from out of vision, QRQ, dead. It's not fun to watch, it's ridiculous.

Then don't fight in the jungle? It's not like she has a ridiculous pro win rate for you to make this a big point, either. If you fight your team fights in lanes, she has a way harder time sleeping someone. If you have a tank, she has a way harder time landing her combo on key targets. If you build cleanses/spell shields, she has to do double the work for similar output. If you use your head, you have options to make her way less stressful to deal with.

It's not fun to play against either.

Your response to her damage is "Just dodge it" or "Build Mikael's"

That's the response to a lot of mages and their damage: Dodge it, tank it, or cleanse the confirm before they wipe you. It's the same for literally ANYONE OTHER MAGE in some fashion or another.

"Only 2.1k" on a support budget is a lot. If you get Mikael's you often forgo items such as Redemption/Zeke's that are far more impactful. There are times when you have to ward and just chance that you don't get killed in the process

"Zoe's been beating my butt."

Counter-build her only confirm, then?

"Not impactful enough Riot nerf her."

I don't feel sorry for you. If denying a champion their snowball isn't "impactful" enough to you, you get what you get, so don't get upset.

Also she can just auto you for 500 magic damage with her passive and lich, it used to be far worse before she got altered and now if she gets jumped on she often dies which is nice

Oh no, she has damage on her passive...oh nooooooo! You know, fun fact right here...Crucible has 40 MR.

Any champ that hits one ability and then one shots you for free is not fun, I'm not going to reply anymore because I've made my point. Accept it or not, I think the champion isn't fun to watch or play against, even when I'm playing with Zoe and I see her 1 shot an enemy champion I just think "pfft, great champion"

Zoe doesn't 1-shot "for free". She, like any other champion, one shots when she's on items and when you don't have the proper resistances as a squishy target. The reason why you don't want to respond past this point is because you don't have a strong point to make. You're just whining and baby-raging.

Jinzo TorranceJul 1, 20182 votes

I'm sure she's never picked in competitive because you can dodge everything she uses and counterbuild her into being dogshit useless, oh wait... still highest presence champion in competitive, I guess LCS players actually just need to put effort into dodging every skillshot 24/7 and rushing Banshee even though most mages mid can't function without a mana item anymore. Have you ever been mentally invested to think that maybe Zoe needs nerfs because she has access to one of the strongest CC in the game on a 14 seconds pre-CDR cooldown?

D357R0Y3RJul 1, 20181 votes

veigar E 14 sec cd AOE 2.5 sec stun

zoe E: "strongest cc in the game"

chipndip1Jul 1, 20181 votes

So every champ that shows up in LCS is toxic and needs nerfs. Right. Lets nerf Ryze.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 1, 20182 votes

Assassin mains: "Yes, it's completely fair that you have to rush Zhonya's to survive us" Also assassin mains: "REEE I DON'T WANT TO DEVOTE GOLD TO HALF AN ITEM TO SURVIVE SOMEONE!!!!!"

AR URFJul 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Assassin mains: "Yes, it's completely fair that you have to rush Zhonya's to survive us" Also assassin mains: "REEE I DON'T WANT TO DEVOTE GOLD TO HALF AN ITEM TO SURVIVE SOMEONE!!!!!"

also assassin mains: REEE I don't deserve to be one shot by a mage, but I deserve to one shot mages!!!

CppLJul 1, 20182 votes

Sure you can rush banshes as a ap champ.But then you have no mana ,and i mean no fucking mana at all.

chipndip1Jul 1, 20181 votes

Did I say "First item Banshee" or did I say "Actually buy a Banshee before someone that isn't even in your lane has to remind you to buy a Banshee"?

D357R0Y3RJul 1, 20181 votes

item 3111 prevents her from getting a max range Q if you're asleep

chipndip1Jul 1, 20181 votes

I'ma keep that one in the chamber if I ever need it.

DW DianaJul 1, 20181 votes

Personally I never really minded fighting Zoe. I understand peoples frustration, anyone who can take you from 100-0 at that kind of range after hitting a long range CC followed by a Q is more then a little tilting, especially if you already got them to 10% HP, but in truth it's a trade off she makes for being squishy as all hell. Like any hypermobile hypercarry her weakness is being locked down. Once you've done that she's basically dead. Luckily for Zoe players most of the champions that were designed to counter hypermobile hypercarries are sitting with Malzahar in the void right now. Still, there's always OTHER hypermobile hypercarries xD

....and people wonder why games are so fast... XD

Silly NeekoJul 1, 20181 votes

If you see a Zoe bring cleanse in mid. Its nearly useless for the Zoe because its only for her sleep and ignite.... and they nearly never pick it up because of this. Since you would generally have cleanse and flash, it is useless xD

Malix FarwinJul 2, 20181 votes

@OP Itemize? Take a look at these people's match history, they do not even play against her enough to learn her kit let alone have the brains to itemize against it.

I mean seriously look at all these people, they are either hiding behind a forum account or only actually play against her once a month.