Explaining the PBE's Buffs and comparing to DOTA2

ModCaptainMårvelous··20 votes·2,022 views

Listen. The outcry on the boards over the PBE right now is kind of ridiculous and for good reason: People are still hoisting up win-rates as the tell-all damning argument about balance in League of Legends.

Now, I want to draw point to DOTA2 because it's the most common thing I see when people talk about diversity and balance. Just in TI6, over 95% of their hero pool was picked. Yes, some are picked more than others, but by-and-large their diversity is phenomenal for their game. The reason I bring up DOTA2 is to compare the game's win rates:

Week Stats Month Stats Three Month Stats

Right off the bat, this might freak some League players out. Around 30% of their hero pool boasts 50+ percent winrates. An equally massive chunk boast winrates sub 45%. By all accounts, this game is horrifically unbalanced in the eyes of normal play. Do you know why people don't cry or people are told to be quiet if they do complain?

##Because the game is balanced around PRO PLAY.

NOBODY truly cares about win-rates in normal play because those don't mean much, if anything. Much like League, their norms have plenty of one-tricks, simple, and cheese play. When the game gets a patch update, it's aimed at the highest tier of high tier play. Pros make the game, not the normal balance decisions.

The reason I say this is because Gameplay seems to want it's cake and to eat it too. I see arguments asking for DOTA-level diversity yet knee-jerk reactions whenever Riot makes balance changes specifically aimed at pro play. Gameplay, you all need to make up your mind about what you want because you can't simultaneously balance the game around pub play and pro play. Either you want the game tweaked around your normal level of play or you make concessions to "fine" champions because they're not outstanding in the highest tier of play.

Sorry if I sound upset but the fact that people ask for DOTA's level of diversity but with none of the balance concessions truly frustrates me.

30 Comments

Troll for Trump5 votes

LoL has a lot more polarity in balance than Dota does; In Dota, almost everything is viable. Even the weaker heroes are just hard to play by "casuals" (Meepo). LoL, it doesn't really matter what you do; Urgot, Yorick among several other champs are too bad to even be compared with higher-tier champs. DoTA doesn't really add to the champ roster often, at least, not as much as LoL. LoL is constantly pushing the boundaries, and crowding out old champs. DoTA tries to perfect it's more old-fashioned gameplay.

DoTa is really rock-paper-scissors ish, unlike League. Champs will counter other champs EXTREMELY hard, as will items (Like Orchid Malevolence). This encourages a larger variety of champs. LoL does have rock-paper-scissors itemization and champ counters, but it's a lot more skill(mechanically)-reliant, while the flexibility is a lot more important in DoTa.

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

Here's the thing though: Even in League, almost everything is "viable". Oh you can complain and argue about how optimal something is but modes like Nemesis draft have proven that even "Bad" champions are good. A majority of champions hover around the 52-48% win rate in normal queues. Hell, Mordekaiser had the highest jungle win-rate a while back because one guy was making him work in high master/challenger tier. So that argument is rather moot. (Using your examples: In top lane, Yorick has a 47% win rate, Urgot has a -52%- win rate. These are hardly as bad as many make them out to be.)

More importantly, the argument I'm making is that using normal win-rates to justify buffs or nerfs when you're aiming at buffing something for pro play is a moot point. There needs to be a point where you draw a line. You really want DOTA diversity? Then Riot has to be free to make changes that help champs for pros in the majority case.

Troll for Trump1 votes

For the stats, playrate is really important. Anomalies should not be taken in as part of the statistics; Consistent stats should be used. Consistently, Urgot and Yorick and far weaker than many other picks. Because of rock-paper-scissors, among other things, "unviability" vs "meta" is less polar than League.

People want diversity in norms/ranked more than the pro scene, so it should be balanced around the casual crowd.

Riot keeps making more and more "team champs", which should not be balanced on competitive(Ryze TahmKench for example, with their ults). Dota is not exempt from this(Lifestealer). You shouldn't nerf Ryze because pros abuse his aoe tp ult, and you shouldn't not nerf Yas just because he's not picked in the pro scene.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Disagree on "people want more diversity in norms". When there are plenty of good champs to pick, people complain that there's too much to ban and say that there's too much "OP" stuff out there when in actuality people just want things they'd be comfortable dealing with. AKA: Things that are garbage vs. them.

I'm also in disagreement with "consistency". If you compare performance-to-loyalty, you find that (of course) the more you play, the higher the win rate. After `11-25 games, both Urgot and Yorick feature win rates well above 50%. These champions, as much as we'd like to joke, are not bad. Suboptimal, of course, but even a game like DOTA often has a #1 best in show dream comp you'd draft every game if you could.

And I'm honestly struggling to understand why we shouldn't balance champs with heavy team emphasis around an environment where teamplay is king. If anything these champion's team utility should be primarily/wholly balanced around pro/team play. Again, we come back to the central argument of if normal play should influence pro play as much as it should. If we changed rules in the NFL because of pick-up games in your uncle's backyard during thanksgiving, that wouldn't be rightly fair or sensible now would it?

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

DoTA doesn't really add to the champ roster often, at least, not as much as LoL. LoL is constantly pushing the boundaries, and crowding out old champs. DoTA tries to perfect it's more old-fashioned gameplay.

.

DOTA 1 used to add new heroes regularly... but Valve prefers to add new skins and terrains, not new heroes (zero profit from free heroes). There are also OP heroes every patch just like in Lol and some of the picks are just 1 of that loses and never gets picked again... Competitive DOTA players often try cheesy strategies, but the Lol players usually try to play safe.

Sona x Rubick3 votes

this can just be summarized with one hero: Earth spirit

Earth spirit was around 30-40% win rate since his release, now he is at 42% win rate because ice-frog changed the hero to be less difficult. But in pro, he was broken since i don't know how many time, and this made the hero to be nerfed so hard every patch and they still play him.

do you know why ice-frog balances the game around pro players? because if a hero is broken in pub, he tells you "git gud", and he is right, part of the reason i don't understand why meddler is trying to balance the game around plat and above.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Plat and above is just the cutoff. Plat+ is still around...what, 5% of players? I don't mind that so much.

What I -do- mind is people throwing around win-rates and pointing out how XYZ/ABC is fine because "well he doesnt need buffs hes FINE in normal queue". Meanwhile people expect a buff to suddenly break the character.

EDIT: And by the same extent people who want League to have dota-level pick rates (An aspiration I'm wholly behind) but refuse to take the buffs and nerfs that entails. AKA: Everything on the PBE right now.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Plat and above is just the cutoff. Plat+ is still around...what, 5% of players? I don't mind that so much.

What I -do- mind is people throwing around win-rates and pointing out how XYZ/ABC is fine because "well he doesnt need buffs hes FINE in normal queue". Meanwhile people expect a buff to suddenly break the character.

EDIT: And by the same extent people who want League to have dota-level pick rates (An aspiration I'm wholly behind) but refuse to take the buffs and nerfs that entails. AKA: Everything on the PBE right now.

Sweet, I'm part of the platinum+ crew, and Riven is fine.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

are a certain type of champion in dota or dota 2 mandatory. like ad carries in league?

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Not to the extent of League. Supports/Carries/etc are all common but the definition and meta isn't as rigid. There are power picks, yes, but it's not quite as set-in-stone comparative to League. This can be better or worse, depending on how you view it.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

Not to the extent of League. Supports/Carries/etc are all common but the definition and meta isn't as rigid. There are power picks, yes, but it's not quite as set-in-stone comparative to League. This can be better or worse, depending on how you view it.

for me its worse. because league is supposedly a hero based game not a class based game. if you know what am saying. people will either strongly agree or disagree. but no champion class should be mandatory in a hero based game. not bruisers not tanks not supports and not ad carries. hell we even get ap carries as supports sometimes but i dont see a game without an adc.

AHeroNamedDunk1 votes

amen brutha fuck winrates

Eclipse13371 votes

You've got some valid points. Good post.

KoKoboto1 votes

Everything in DOTA 2 is Overpowered

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

No. The power curve is just different.

Yutaji5 votes

{quoted}

No. The power curve is just different.

No it really isn't. 10 seconds stuns, silences and overall out of control CC is what made me stop playing. The game is wildly unbalalnced on all accounts.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

The power curve is absolutely different. Stuns certainly aren't ten seconds (At max, CC is usually around 4-5 seconds) and CC is only in such a place because of powerful counters such as BKB existing. The game punishes you more for making a mistake but the game certainly isn't "wildly unbalanced".

Arakadia1 votes

Isn't there one guy who can create 4 of himself total? Ad all of them can farm at once?

Troll for Trump1 votes

That would be Meepo(I think, unless you are talking about Illusions?). And Meepo is probably the hardest champ in the game, or at least one of them. There are 4 of them, but the stats are pretty bad, and when any of the Meepos die, all of them do. You have to manage them all INDIVIDUALLY. Hella hard.

Illusion-wise, I'm thinking of Phantom Lancer or Chaos Knight.

Hinagiku331 votes

Or anyone if they buy Manta...

Sona x Rubick1 votes

and this is why you don't do a dota thread in league's forum op, cause here none played the game.

ACENOX1 votes

who are you talking about?

{quoted}

The game is wildly unbalalnced on all accounts.

first day of ti, 91 heroes picked,85 banned, tell me more about how unbalanced it is

Teklm1 votes

I really hate this argument. Something being overpowered, and balance in general, is relative to everything else in the game. Everything in DotA 2 being overpowered is strictly impossible. Everything in anything being overpowered is impossible. The insane stuff in DotA is well balanced within the context of DotA, which leads to the diversity of the game.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

Once again faulty logic.

If it's balanced around professional play and that's why they're buffing Riven (even though she already has 2016 LCS presence and positive win rate) then why aren't they buffing champions that still have yet to make an LCS appearance this year?

Hey might as well buff Darius since he's never seen in the LCS so he's underperforming in pro play.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Darius got seen at Worlds last year so he's not unheard of.

I'm not gonna pretend I know why they're buffing these champions but, beyond Riven, there are tons of champions who don't see much/any play that are getting buffed (Jinx, Evelynn, Diana, Vi, Vayne, Brand) while also nerfing a fair amount of popular characters (Rek'sai, Gragas, Jhin, Ashe). Hell, maybe Riven is underperforming in pro play even though she's picked. Overall it's not "faulty logic" because they decided to buff champions for pro play, its just that you disagree with who they chose to buff. Doesn't mean it's not specifically targeted to improve their play-rate in the highest echelon of play.

Meep Man1 votes

Darius was seen in Worlds last year and got a Pentakill if I remember.

EDIT: https://youtu.be/jN_TxFhbHog

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OA45ARJH,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2016-08-10T20:19:07.788+0000)

Darius was seen in Worlds last year and got a Pentakill if I remember.

EDIT: https://youtu.be/jN_TxFhbHog

He got two pentas last year.

Last year.

Last year is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Riven has LCS presence THIS YEAR and is still getting buffed, this isn't true for Darius.

Niaphim1 votes

You are right except DotA 2 and LoL have different business models.

For Valve promoting the game with tournaments and selling compendiums is its primary source of income. And in the worst case scenario when sales are not stellar Valve has other means to survive.

For Riot, on the other hand, Esports is still a toy department, I believe, that nets next to zero profit, and most of the income comes from champion/skin/ward/whatever else is in shop. And that is why balancing primarily for the LCS may be wrong (IMO).

PermabannedGaren1 votes

I agree, it's incredibly stupid to want more diversity in pro play but to complain about champs being buffed to be more viable in pro play.

I'm of the opinion that only fat losers who will die alone and unhappy give a shit about who is picked in the LCS and think the game should be balanced purely around solo (or "dynamic") queue.

Sohleks1 votes

I'm not a big fan of the balancing around winrate Riot seems to do more often than not. Mainly because they seem blinded from high level OP picks for a bit too long. So this patch with a bunch of small tweaks to random champions pleases me.

Some obvious factors that go into a champion's winrate:

• their potential actual usefulness • difficulty to play, harder champions can have more high level power stuffed into them before going flavor of the month and getting nerfed • popularity, fun to play champions gain more players; fun can either be power or playmaking show off characteristics; higher popularity increase the difficulty to play winrate factor

I think there is at least one more variable I bet only the LoL devs consider. Sometimes.

Winrate can merely be a sympton of CHANGE. TEMPORARY. It's an illusion of power. Yes a nerf or buff will tilt the numbers one way. But the players will find a way around or settle into a different elo their champion got them to.

It's kinda like how a not so useful champion like Teemo gradually seeks into positive 51% winrate. Because he's been this way for SO long that basically anyone who plays him is elo handicapped and adjusted. A sudden change to make Teemo legit competitive and these Teemo mains would have like 65% winrates (true part of it is Teemo is simple to play)

Patch 4.20 weedwick. 60% winrate. Simple and stupid op in everyone's game. Just became an actual competitive pick then, but can still be countered and beat by 5 premade pros. Didn't take over the pro level meta really.

Because I play ranked and normals in diamond+ what is ACTUALLY good regularly affects me. 50% mixture between what is good for solo queue and good for competitive play

A pure balance for winrate approach is just more interest into stability than actual balance

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