Can a shen main (or several) tell me what Shen's counterplay is, exactly?

Frontline Fury·Sep 1, 2017·3 votes·2,915 views

It just feels like no matter what i do, he outdamages me. His kit is so extremely overpowered for dueling early game, the ONLY counterplay is "outstat him". You either do enough damage to break through his shields or he pushes you out of lane, because he gets a bonus magic damage attack speed steroid WITH a shield AND a slow, and that is ONE of his THREE abilities. Why is it okay for Shen to be this busted when he has a non-combat ult? I know his Q power is supposed to compensate for him not having a combat ultimate, but does it REALLY have to compensate to the point he outdamages most top laners with combat ults? He builds full tank and outdamages nearly every top laner in the game - he even counters champions like Illaoi! What are his weaknesses? I cant find any champion that is good against him.

18 Comments

MrHaZeYoSep 1, 20174 votes

I haven't see someone complain about Shen in a long time.

Frontline FurySep 1, 20171 votes

The tank meta has been sleeping for a long time.

waiting for WoWSep 1, 20172 votes

Shen has tons of counterplay from the fact that his taunt is still easy to juke, to the fact that you avoid being hit with his spirit blade, to the fact that that he has zero wave clear before he gets tiamat/bami's cinder and is forced to last hit everything and stay in melee range.

There are a lot of unfair top laners but shen is not one of them. Even him ulting usually results in him falling behind on CS or losing his turret.

Frontline FurySep 1, 20171 votes

The main problem when it comes to waveclear is that, even after its nerf, Bami's cinder not only gives Shen wave clear but also gives him enough dueling power to outdamage most melee champions - and mages.

He is too reliable. He snowballs like an assassin while still being an effective tank slash juggernaut - he deals so much damage he forces you to focus him, while still building full tank so that you automatically lose a teamfight by focusing him.

Have you seen Shen's average damage dealt? He will frequently be contending with his mid laner and marksman.

Shuriman CuratorSep 1, 20172 votes

(sigh) ok so you have a few options.

Champions: pick champs with strong wave clear, poke or benefit from extended trades.

Champs such as Galio, Darius, Renekton, Teemo, Gnar, even Garen.

You play around his kit, his W and E have long cool downs(freeze the wave on your side of river). Ask jungler to gank. Also his W negates only basic attacks, what do you do? Use abilities and they work unless it's an empowered basic attack like Nasus Q.

Also pay attention to his Energy... If he's out/low he literally cant do anything.

His ult has a super high cool down and there are a few ways to counterplay that, one thing you can do use CC to interrupt the channel (even a silence works) or your team makes plays when it's on cool down.

Also build MR.

Shen's my most played champ (almost at 500k xp) but you will find others with more experience, I'm confident that they know more.

Good luck. You may still be Shenetrated, if so, embrace that honor like a man.(lol)

Frontline FurySep 1, 20171 votes

Tl;dr I think shen is WAY too powerful due to his non-combat ult compensation buffs - its not that he is a broken duelist on his own, but the fact he is too reliable. ONE early gank from his jungler can decide not only the entire course of the lane, but the entire course of the game. There are very few other champions that can snowball this hard without actually needing kills or a significant gold advantage. Shen just needs to be 10 minions ahead of his opponent and he will easily zone them for the entirety of the laning phase.

So lets assume i'm playing a champion with no dashes or innate movement speed (in other words, dodging Shen's Q is literally impossible because of its enormous hitbox). Lets also assume i'm playing soloQ, which means top lane is at best a 1v1. If any jungler ganks, it's going to be Shen's.

The only reliable way to deal with shen i've found is extremely high innate sustain and very high attack speed. I am not a mage player, so i dont have access to champions with busted spells (see: swain).

Regular spells will not work on Shen. His passive shield is so large (and up with such a high frequency) that it negates most spell damage, much more reliably than his W negates basic attacks.

Shen does a lot of magic damage, but my main issue is that if he builds titanic hydra, you are not going to be able to build against him no matter what. If you build magic resist his regular basic attacks outdamage you massively, and if you build armor you get the same problem from his Q.

Due to his Q's extreme reliability, you are not going to be able to "juke" his E without an extremely potent slow, aka Darius. That's ONE champion that counters Shen. ONE. That means if i want to play any one of the other 130 or so champions in the game, i am going to lose this lane.

As you main Shen, you probably only remember moments where you've been hopelessly outmatched. Thus you are unaware of his strengths, because i highly doubt you have a lot of experience playing AGAINST Shen.

To clarify: His Q slows you so heavily you are not going to be able to juke his taunt without a flash or similarly quick dash of your own. Not only does the taunt guarantee him another Q proc, but it also tends to draw HIS minions to focus you from a longer range - i've noticed this happen frequently - because i believe his "call for help" procs at the location he BEGUN his taunt, not where he ends up. This means if Shen taunts you from within his minion wave into your minion wave, his entire minion wave is going to target you.

I actually have no problems with Shen's W or ult. Especially his ult is fine, and due to its channel time and long cooldown it creates very predictable behaviour in shen as to when he wants to ult.

The problem is his brutally overloaded Q, and his passive. Besides that, even AFTER his HP regen nerfs he is still naturally healing WAY more than any other champion in his class - easily outsustaining fellow tanks.

When i play Xin Zhao i do fine against Shen. He cannot beat me in a 1v1 unless his jungler puts me far behind.

But the problem is that even on my main, his counterplay is too unreliable. The entire game can be decided by the enemy jungler. I need a champion that can actually survive a gank in a Shen lane, because Plat is filled with players that have climbed only thanks to their premade jungler. Top lane is no longer an island, so i cant rely on my dueling skills alone.

BobaFlautistSep 1, 20172 votes

"Let's assume I'm playing a no mobility champion that relies on auto attacks, has no pushing power, and isn't Darius. Also I've found that Xin Zhao works but he's not acceptable because sometimes I get ganked and fall behind"

Who the fuck are you willing to play? I mean that's like if I said " Why does Vayne have no counters, she's so broken op? Oh, also I refuse to play anything but Volibear"

WalkingInACircleSep 1, 20171 votes

Don't let him Q through you. Try and bait it if he gets the sword behind your minion line.

His W and E have long cooldowns. Shen excels at short skirmishes because of his shields and 3 damaging hits on his q. He struggles against ranged champions and enemies with sustain.

He does not counter Illaoi... at all. If you lost that matchup you got outplayed. Trundle is probably his nastiest matchup really, because he can even cancel your ult from a long distance.

KoKobotoSep 1, 20171 votes

Yeah he's a pretty hard match-up but still has a good amount of counter play.

Dodging the pull back on his Q is a big start. Making sure you save CDs when his W is up. Trying to dodge taunt. That's pretty much it... It kinda feels bad playing against %max health magic damage on auto attacks but Shen doesn't have other tools that make it THAT unbearable. Dodging his abilities make it so his shield CD doesn't reduce as fast.

Fighting Shen feels fair to me. Sometimes I feel like I'm taking too much damage from Q although I dodged it but, still fair.

Frontline FurySep 1, 20171 votes

Fighting Shen feels extremely unfair to me. He will build full tank and still deal the damage of someone only building straight AD items. His attack speed steroid is almost on par with Xin Zhao's, and his shield is almost as strong as Nautilus'.

Shen's Q slow allows him to line up his E - which in turn allows him to line up his Q.

KoKobotoSep 1, 20171 votes

Nah. Darius, Kled, Garen, Trundle, Illaoi, Graves, Urgot, Riven, Jayce, Malzahar, Cassiopeia, Vayne, Twitch, Kog'Maw will all do more damage.

Dodge the E.

InfernapeSep 1, 20171 votes

The trick to beating Shen is:

not playing a champion that is entirely auto attack reliant. His W nullifies all AAs if Shen or anyone on his team is inside it.
putting pressure on the lane when he inevitably ults away. Shen's ult causes him to lose his turret most of the time unless he also has TP up
attempting to stop him from completing his ult
not letting his Q go through you. That is what gives him is damage.
baiting out his E and W then attacking him
applying pressure when his ult is off cooldown.

Shen is far from busted (well outside of competitive play). He's one of the most balanced champions in the game in my opinion. His damage isn't too high and is offset by Stand United's potential power, he has long cooldowns on all of his abilities bar his Q, he has no wave-clear until he buys a Sunfire (which is currently kind of trash) or a Tiamat/Titanic Hydra (which forces him to forgo early tankiness).

Illaoi hard counters Shen. I play them both. Shen is one of her easiest match-ups.

Shen is all about the teamfight and saving someone with his ultimate and getting a (hopefully) 5 man taunt off when it completes. Shen excels against AA based champions and is weak to ranged champions and champions that can cut through his tankiness.

Frontline FurySep 1, 20171 votes

If Shen was one of the most balanced champions in the game, he wouldnt be able to win almost every single top lane matchup while simultaneously teleporting to assist other lanes AND being capable of assassinating marksmen. His extreme base damage and ridiculous tankiness means he easily forces summoner spells on whoever he points out as his target, and provided he's being backed up by an equal number of allies as there are enemies, he will automatically win the matchup because he outdamages the opponent's tank while soaking more damage than them.

I still havent seen Illaoi win against Shen. As his W blocks her W and his dash is enough to escape her ult, she is incapable of outdamaging him.

UnboundHadesSep 1, 20171 votes

Dodge e make him with then u can punish him while they are on cd lol

Frontline FurySep 1, 20171 votes

Have you ever tried to dodge a Shen E? He will go for a trade whenever you attempt to kill a minion, and thus he can taunt from melee range. Unless you're playing Udyr with boots of swiftness or Fizz, you wont be able to dodge a point-blank taunt.

UnboundHadesSep 1, 20171 votes

U wanted help but only complain more

Miror BSep 1, 20171 votes

Wait, shen is busted? Going to go ahead and list all of the matchups I'd consider safe into him, ones in which I've played numerous times against shen and completely dumpstered him with:

-Rumble vs Shen -Gangplank vs Shen -Cassio vs Shen (two of them happened midlane for some reason) -Swain vs Shen (rushed liandrys in a few of those games) -Darius vs Shen (by far my favorite matchup, as you destroy him at all stages of the game and don't really "care" if he goes full armor vs you) -Trundle vs Shen (in two of those games, I took his inhibitor pre-20 mins)

Shen is by no means "OP" right now and is a ridiculously niche pick due to how little he brings to a team barring the ulti-shield. His dueling potential only really "works" vs tanks and assassins, he get outscaled by like 80% of the characters in the game, and his kit in general is pretty predictable. Pick literally anything with consistent damage and they're usually a safe pick into him, as he really doesn't like repeated damage.

Frontline FurySep 1, 20171 votes

Shen IS OP compared to the other champions in his class. No other tank has an attack speed, hybrid damage slowing steroid that also gives them a shield on an extremely low cooldown.

While i know Shen is supposed to be a basic attack counter, my problem with him is that - as a player that cant play mages at all - he is just too reliable, even agaisnt spell casters. Illaoi? No problem, just rush sunfire and you outdamage her unless she ults, in which case you press W and walk away until your taunt his up. Garen? Click W. Click E. Click Q. Repeat. I could go on, but i think you get the idea.

Just in case you dont: Shen's Q packs the punch of half an ultimate ability. Its so strong that unless you play a champion with EXTREME sustain (Swain), he can easily force you to use your ultimate EVERY SINGLE TIME its up. And if its not up, his extremely high base stats easily zone you as he can outduel you without even using all 3 of his abilities.

A predictable kit is a poor excuse. Garen, Darius and Yasuo all have extremely predictable kits - yet you'll frequently see them both get picked and win all the way up to Diamond rank.

You keep repeating the same keyword i used in my post - damage. His only counterplay is to outstat him. There is very little you can do mechanically because he is guaranteed to either land his Q on you or force your flash at least once every time his taunt is up. And even if he misses his Q, it still does so high damage you are very unlikely to outdamage him without using your ultimate - which he can easily walk away from and wait out.

This in itself isnt the main problem though. Sure, he can go EVEN with you, even if you have your ultimate up. That in itself isnt necessarily a bad thing.

The bad thing, however, is that if he is put even SLIGHTLY ahead, there is nothing you can do against him at all. You cannot outdamage him, but he sure as hell can outdamage you. He will build full tank and still easily force you out of lane unless you sit under your tower.

What does this mean?

Well, let me make an example. If Darius or Riven gets an early gank and pick up a kill, They get a little ahead. They will likely be bullying their opponent, but they are not strong enough to decisively kill them and, before they get their ultimates, the chance for a comeback is there for their opponent.

With Shen on the other hand? ONE gank is enough. You dont even need a kill. Gank Shen, force his opponent to back off from a cannon minion and a couple regular minions and that's it. That's all it took. Shen is now 10 cs ahead, he can pick up a 800 gold item while his opponent has a 400 gold item and Shen is now zoning his opponent. He can easily soak up anything they throw at him, and he is free to dash at them ANY time they attempt to go for minions because they are not going to be able to breach his defensive items.

He snowballs even worse than champions like Zed, Darius, Riven or Draven.

If you are a Shen main, you have probably faced Vladimir before. You'd think Vlad would be a decent shen counter - long range, low cooldowns, many health items and high sustain.

Nope. Shen destroys Vladimir. Vladimir either pools away from Shen's taunt or lets himself get hit and chunked for 60% of his HP in 3 basic attacks from Shen. This of course assuming they have both reached level 3 without any ganks.

Shen is a TANK. He shouldnt be allowed to build full tank and deal Warwick-tier damage. Speaking of which - he's a warwick counter! Warwick is seeing a stable ban rate (at least in platinum, where he seems to get banned every single game) and is considered one of the strongest junglers in the game.

And yet Shen counters him. One bramble vest and Shen easily 1v1's Warwick. A champion that almost no other champions in the entire game can 1v1. And Shen is still only building defensive tank items.

Shen is almost at tank Ekko level of counterplay. He is less mobile, so if the enemy team gangs up on him (aka 4v1, like a juggernaut) then he might die.

In other words, Shen, a TANK with a NON-COMBAT ULTIMATE is such a high threat he requires juggernaut-level attention to control. He will easily burst down marksmen, mages - anything that doesnt stack a lot of health or heal a lot constantly.

All while still exclusively building defensive items.

Now about the matchups you stated - have you ever seen a Rumble vs Shen lane? Yes, Rumble can bully Shen SLIGHTLY early game (Shen's passive shield will deflect the majority of Rumble's damage unless he all-ins, and Rumble is forced to push the lane to bully Shen)

Now if Rumble does bully Shen, and Shen gets a gank and picks up JUST ONE KILL on Rumble, Rumble is suddenly no longer capable of even contending the lane. Shen will easily outdamage him HEAVILY, and can also zone him from minions by physically blocking his harpoons and Taunt-engaging every single time Rumble attempts to farm with his flamethrower.

Gangplank uses Q on Shen. Shen presses Q. Shen loses no health. Gangplank loses mana and gains minion aggro. Gangplank basic attacks Shen with a true damage-empowered basic attack. Shen loses 5% of his health. Shen basic attacks Gangplank ONCE with a regular Q-empowered basic attack. Gangplank loses 15 to 20% of his health, depending on his rune page.

Cassiopeia vs Shen. See Rumble above: Cassiopeia will bully Shen at the very start of the game, and then she runs out of mana. Shen farms. Cassiopeia buys mana items. Shen buys magic resist. Shen dives on cassiopeia when she attempts to bully him. Shen easily deals 40 to 70% of Cassiopeia's health in one combo. Shen might lose up to 40% of his health from this trade, which he quickly regenerates due to high base health regen. Cassiopeia has no regen and is now zoned by Shen who can easily kill her should he land a taunt, so she will stay at low health until she recalls to base.

Swain vs Shen is the only matchup Shen cant deal with. Swain's ultimate is unblockable and the healing he recieves is not reduced by Shen's magic resist, hence Shen has no way of winning this matchup. Still doesnt help me, as i do not play mages. But that's ONE counterpick.

Darius vs Shen. Pass. Darius beats Shen easily without jungler assistance, and even if Shen is put ahead Darius will allways be a threat - as well as being able to survive lane trades, due to his innate sustain and crowd control.

Trundle vs Shen. Trundle attempts to poke Shen early game. Trundle bites Shen. Shen clicks Q, blocks the entirety of the bite damage and, despite having his AD lowered, deals roughly 20 to 40% of Trundle's health in three basic attacks while he loses roughly 20% from Trundle's Q-empowered basic attacks. Shen buys bami's cinder and ninja tabi. Trundle can no longer actually damage Shen, while Shen easily chunks Trundle every single time his Q is up - even more if he pulls it through Trundle. Trundle gets ult. Shen stops engaging with his E and simply trades with Trundle through his Q and his W. Shen is still constantly poking Trundle and controlling the minion waves. Trundle uses his ult on Shen. Shen activates his W and begins to back off. Trundle uses his ice pillar to block off Shen's taunt dash. Shen pulls his sword through trundle as he chases, empowering his basic attacks. Even with Trundle's ult applied to him, Shen is still being shielded by his passive for a large chunk of Trundle's basic attacks - Trundle has stolen Shen's armor, which does not protect at all against Shen's empowered Q basic attacks. Trundle loses a lot of health, mana and cs from trying to fight Shen for lane dominance. Shen loses a little health, which will quickly refill from high base health regen. Once his cooldowns are up, he is free to go back to bullying Trundle who is now low on mana.

I'll add a couple of my own here:

Garen vs Shen. Garen attempts to use Q on Shen. Shen parries it with his W. Garen uses his E-spin on Shen. Shen taunts through Garen away from him, pulling his blade through Garen. Shen turns and basic attacks Garen. Shen loses 10% of his health, his passive blocking most of Garen's spin. Garen loses 20 to 40% of his health to Shen's taunt and Q, and is forced to back off while waiting for his cooldowns. While Garen does have innate bonus magic resist, Shen both has a high frequency shield and high health regen, which is on par with Garen's passive health regen until Garen either gains a lot of bonus health or his passive is upgraded by level increase, at which point the laning phase is likely already over.

Shyvana vs Shen. Shyvana can contest Shen for lane dominance due to her own hybrid damage and passive. However, she can only stand toe to toe with him - even with her ultimate, she will still only go even with Shen through skill - which means one jungler gank or one roaming mid laner and she loses the lane. On the other hand, if her jungler grabs an early drake Shyvana can win this lane without actually recieving any direct jungler help of her own. With her passive upgraded, she will likely be able to outdamage Shen in a 1v1. Still, this is provided it has been a 1v1 the entire game.

Taric vs Shen. Believe it or not, Taric can actually outdamage Shen. However, he has extremely steep mana costs and a weak early game, so he will likely be behind Shen in cs by the time he gets enough items to go toe to toe. Also, if Shen recieves a gank this lane is over. However, Taric's sustain is superior to Shen's. Not only does Taric constantly heal himself, he also deals hybrid damage on every single basic attack, has innate armor from his W and can shield himself about as often as Shen can. If Taric can rush a mana+armor item such as glacial shroud and then go straight for either adaptive helm, abyssal mask or spirit visage, he will be able to push Shen out of lane. But once again, this depends on the jungler. If Shen has a heavy physical damage jungler (which he often will, given his hybrid nature) Taric will be unable to build a lot of magic resist and thus be unable to actually win the lane.

I'm actually running out of space. I'll elaborate if you care for more matchups, but at this point i hope i've proven my knowledge of these matchups. Shen has no reliable counters.