Will MMR ever go away?

RAT IN GAME UwU ·Jan 21, 2015·4 votes·958 views

Why do we have MMR and Ranks in ranked play, i'm previously Gold from last season and any player who hits level 30 starts out with silver mmr and can be in my placements, with enough bad luck i could lose them all because of this, no brand new 30 plays at the skill level of a silver player, can mmr in ranked be deleted or at least can a new 30 have to win enough games to have their mmr adjusted up from low bronze, i am fine with prodigies getting their boost in mmr if they earn it, but just giving everyone silver ruins the entirety of the ranked system

30 Comments

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 21, 20152 votes

Don't think it needs to go away necessarily, but def put new players in bronze 5 and let them work their way up. This works both ways. I don't want to hit level 30, get lucky and get carried in my placements more times than not, and be placed in a tier too high for me. Then proceed to get my face stomped every single game until I drop enough to get where I should be.

Zakt0nFeb 9, 20152 votes

I agree start at b5 , and make wins gain a few more points than losses....if you help your teams win you will steadily climb.

SukishooJan 21, 20151 votes

Well it's been here since the start, and is pretty much used in all MOBAs for Ranked play so I doubt it.

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 21, 20151 votes

may as well just go back to the ELO system if we have a rank(which actually doesn't mean anything) and then mmr(the actual decider of who you play with and against) just annoying start out in bronze 1 and to realize even if i climb 2 tiers to mid gold i will still be playing with the exact same players thanks to the MMR system being one size fits all upon hitting level 30, just some actual trying would be nice, there is zero effort put into the current mmr system and that's what i'm upset about

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 22, 20151 votes

Seems like they put in effort when the arranged the whole tier thing, no?

Matthias9119Jan 21, 20151 votes

Starting everyone at 0 MMR as you suggested has its own set of problems. They would also have to use an unbalanced system for rating, which means ratings would inflate continually over time. (This is generally undesirable for several reasons; in particular it favors players who play more matches over those who play fewer.)

For players who have never played Ranked before, their starting MMR is adjusted by how they're doing in Normal matches for that map.

Yes, getting bad luck in your placement matches sucks. But you're just as likely to win due to good luck as you are to lose due to bad luck.

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Starting everyone at 0 MMR as you suggested has its own set of problems. They would also have to use an unbalanced system for rating, which means ratings would inflate continually over time. (This is generally undesirable for several reasons; in particular it favors players who play more matches over those who play fewer.)

For players who have never played Ranked before, their starting MMR is adjusted by how they're doing in Normal matches for that map.

Yes, getting bad luck in your placement matches sucks. But you're just as likely to win due to good luck as you are to lose due to bad luck.

I didn't suggest zero mmr, so i will not be reading anything past that assumption

Matthias9119Jan 21, 20151 votes

Any system that starts most players at a way-below-median rating has the same problem.

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Any system that starts most players at a way-below-median rating has the same problem.

how though? it won't make it worse for the players who spent months slaving away to climb to a rank that essentially is just another name for the rank they started in, i'm sorry to say but there is nothing appealing about gold anymore realizing that i am still technically in bronze/silver because of MMR being one size fits all.

if everyone starts at the bottom (like everything in life unless you're unique or special) then at least the players who make it to gold won't feel like they're wasting their time until they hit platinum, it's really demoralizing to spend my first year on this game playing and improving, endless hours of watching videos and taking what i've learned and implementing it and then seeing Riot match me with people who've never even considered putting in the work i have, that is not right and nothing will justify it in my mind i'm sorry.

Matthias9119Jan 21, 20151 votes

If you really have a rating up in Gold you should not see many brand-new players in your matches. Even after the soft reset you'd start out in probably high Silver or low Gold, and median players are around S4/S5/B1.

The problem is that Elo-like rating systems are balanced. For one player to gain rating, another has to lose it.

If you start everyone out rated really, really low, there's nowhere for the worse-then-average players to go. So unless you have strong evidence that a player is subpar, they have to start out around the median rating.

Or you have to make the rating system unbalanced. But that causes all sorts of other bad mathematical problems.

Demonsolder21Jan 22, 20151 votes

You know you have a point there.

Zakt0nFeb 9, 20151 votes

If wins gain a few more points than losses then you would always be moving up in rank if your TEAM wins more often than loses.

But i'm seeing wins fully cancelled out by losses and the 5 games i'm "ahead" have gained me 52 points. It seems KILLS is what matters and if your team is losing and you still try and die your points will be punished. Wins with lots of KILLS get me lots of points, wins as support with low kills gets me little points that are more than erased if i lose the next game.

Matthias9119Feb 9, 20151 votes

Sorry, I don't quite follow what you are trying to say in the first part of your response.

It seems KILLS is what matters and if your team is losing and you still try and die your points will be punished. ...

In-game performance has zero impact on MMR or LP gains/losses. All that matters is whether you win or lose.

If it wasn't this way then Riot would implicitly be rewarding certain strategies and/or playstyles over others. They very deliberately do NOT do that.

Zakt0nFeb 14, 20151 votes

if it's all just based on if you win or lose then how can you gain 25 points for some wins (with 18+kills) and only 12 points for other wins (low kills and/or playing support)

but really i don't care anymore, with so many AFKS ( 3 out of the last 5 ranked games) ...Riot is only rewarding whoever gets lucky enough to field a full team the most times

P.S. I am now 10 wins ahead of losses and have gained 55 points ! way to many games and wasted time sitting through AFKS then getting 3 wins to make up for the AFKS then 20 more wins and zero losses for one chance at a series...wow nevermind ranked BOO HISS HORRIBLE SYSTEM

Dorans HatFeb 14, 20151 votes

First of all you're implying that it only happens in those scenarios. The way it works is sometimes it matches you against higher rank people and winning will give you more LP or less LP if they're lower rank.

Matthias9119Feb 14, 20151 votes

That. LP gains/losses depend on:

Your personal (hidden) MMR relative to the division you're currently in. This partly acts to keep you from rising/falling very far due to a short win or loss streak.
Your personal (hidden) MMR relative to the MMR of the opponents you're up against. This will vary somewhat from game to game, because they balance between finding teams with really close MMRs and starting games reasonably quickly.

Zakt0nFeb 16, 20151 votes

8 more wins than losses and I'm still bronze 5 with 0 ...that's right ZERO LP

So "in game performance" not making a difference or the MMR explaination still makes no sense.

Obviously my losses are costing more LP than my wins are gaining because i have more overall deaths than kills. So playing support as tank and trying to be a team fighter is destroying my chances...if i want LP i need to be more like the selfish, greedy players that stand back waiting for easy kills and not take any risks to help allies. Rank needs a far better point system or the servers will continue to be angry and toxic.

Dorans HatFeb 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So "in game performance" not making a difference or the MMR explaination still makes no sense.

It does make sense because that's how it works.

DuroxxigarJan 21, 20151 votes

When I was a fresh 30 that jumped into ranked, I got placed in silver 3 or silver 4. So I guess that invalidates your opinion on "no brand new 30 plays at the skill level of a silver player"

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abhor Deities,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3yVJjdA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:29:20.429+0000)

When I was a fresh 30 that jumped into ranked, I got placed in silver 3 or silver 4. So I guess that invalidates your opinion on "no brand new 30 plays at the skill level of a silver player"

it doesn't invalidate it at all, in fact you're so wrong and uninformed about what you're actually saying that you don't even know it

i hit 30 and tested straight into silver 3 and dropped to bronze 2 before i realized i was in over my head and then i took time to learn the game and what i was doing wrong, your situation is what proves my frustrations 100% correct.

now if you hit 30 and play normals forever and learn the game and then hit silver and move up that's not even close to what i'm talking about either.

DuroxxigarJan 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=DW iRek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3yVJjdA,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:30:33.015+0000)

it doesn't invalidate it at all, in fact you're so wrong and uninformed about what you're actually saying that you don't even know it

i hit 30 and tested straight into silver 3 and dropped to bronze 2 before i realized i was in over my head and then i took time to learn the game and what i was doing wrong, your situation is what proves my frustrations 100% correct.

now if you hit 30 and play normals forever and learn the game and then hit silver and move up that's not even close to what i'm talking about either.

But I never dropped after I hit silver. I ended up at Silver 1 or high Silver 2 that season. Soooo, once again. It does invalidate what your opinion is. Just because you didn't grasp the concept of the game at a certain time, doesn't mean every else failed in the same area.

And if you are so dead set on trying to make another point, why not just say it? Please, tell me a different interpretation of "no brand new 30 plays at the skill level of a silver player"

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abhor Deities,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3yVJjdA,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:33:56.820+0000)

But I never dropped after I hit silver. I ended up at Silver 1 or high Silver 2 that season. Soooo, once again. It does invalidate what your opinion is. Just because you didn't grasp the concept of the game at a certain time, doesn't mean every else failed in the same area.

And if you are so dead set on trying to make another point, why not just say it? Please, tell me a different interpretation of "no brand new 30 plays at the skill level of a silver player"

okay then post your game history so i can see when you tested into silver, played adequately and didn't drop, because you'd be the first person ever to just start playing league on your first account, hit 30, hit silver and still move up with no practice or outside work on your skills, if you played dota or other mobas before making a league account, then you don't really fall under what i'm talking about, and let's say you are not lying, which i doubt...but for shits and giggles, you would be part of less than a hundredth of a percent i'd bet, that could actually do that, so to come in here and to say it invalidates what i'm saying is statistically wrong as well. i understand the whole being online and wanting to prove everyone wrong and sound smarter than everyone, but i'm talking about on average situations, not the one guy who is the exception

DuroxxigarJan 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=DW iRek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3yVJjdA,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:44:17.139+0000)

okay then post your game history so i can see when you tested into silver, played adequately and didn't drop, because you'd be the first person ever to just start playing league on your first account, hit 30, hit silver and still move up with no practice or outside work on your skills, if you played dota or other mobas before making a league account, then you don't really fall under what i'm talking about, and let's say you are not lying, which i doubt...but for shits and giggles, you would be part of less than a hundredth of a percent i'd bet, that could actually do that, so to come in here and to say it invalidates what i'm saying is statistically wrong as well. i understand the whole being online and wanting to prove everyone wrong and sound smarter than everyone, but i'm talking about on average situations, not the one guy who is the exception

It was season 3 first off, I don't think that you can actually look it up, but go to lolking or op.gg or whatever and see for yourself. You just seem salty from some lost matches. Also, you are assuming that I am that keyboard warrior, when I was merely stating a fallacy in your statement.

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abhor Deities,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3yVJjdA,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:52:33.580+0000)

It was season 3 first off, I don't think that you can actually look it up, but go to lolking or op.gg or whatever and see for yourself. You just seem salty from some lost matches. Also, you are assuming that I am that keyboard warrior, when I was merely stating a fallacy in your statement.

call it a falacy if you will, 1 guy out of 70 million doing something allegedly doesn't change an average scenario. bye

Zakt0nFeb 9, 20151 votes

I entered rank at Silver 3 also...it seems this is standard.

So there is a good chance you will have a ranked "rookie" on your team in silver, from what i've seen the play at silver lvl 3 was no more organized or impressive than the play in bronze.

PrinceArchieJan 21, 20151 votes

It's really a non factor because placements arent everything. Last Season there were quite a few players who placed well below their ranks and just ended up getting back the elo anyway. It's the double edged sword of it all honestly, you'll probably be doing promos with players of lower or "varied" skill levels and will be placed most likely at an "average" elo depending on how well you do. You will end up where you were before regardless, having newer players start higher on the ladder only helps them experience what "good" play is like. If they drop like a rock, hopefully they figure it out and can climb out. As a player who has established themselves in an elo already, you should never be concerned about your elo in promos or otherwise, we all get to where we belong eventually.

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's really a non factor because placements arent everything. Last Season there were quite a few players who placed well below their ranks and just ended up getting back the elo anyway. It's the double edged sword of it all honestly, you'll probably be doing promos with players of lower or "varied" skill levels and will be placed most likely at an "average" elo depending on how well you do. You will end up where you were before regardless, having newer players start higher on the ladder only helps them experience what "good" play is like. If they drop like a rock, hopefully they figure it out and can climb out. As a player who has established themselves in an elo already, you should never be concerned about your elo in promos or otherwise, we all get to where we belong eventually.

i know that, but i just don't want to get placed lower and have to play more games with crappy unskilled players because of the mmr system, i'd rather test back to where i was last season and keep moving up, it's just frustrating because of how many games it takes to actually move up a division, and lets say i test into mid silver, i'm now in hellish games where it's entirely up to me to win the game for 4 players who are eating paste, i already did the climb, i'm just wondering why i'm back to where i was when i first hit 30, i won a lot of games, my win rate is over 50% i shouldn't still be with players who don't know what csing is, or who don't know their match ups...i might just honestly not play the game seriously anymore...what it comes down to is i'm always going to be in these unenjoyable games until i commit enough time to hit plat,

can anyone recommend any games where your success isn't based on your winning the game for everyone else? where teamwork is actually worth something below the top 10% of the world?

Zakt0nFeb 9, 20151 votes

my win rate is over 50% too, yet i went from sliver 3 to bronze 5 ! the ranked system makes no sense to me if my team wins more than loses and i drop like a rock. My promo games ended up 5-5 and i stayed in bronze 5. I do admit I am cursed and get an afk on my team once or twice during EVERY series i can remember so even when i get the chance to climb i get sent back with 65-75 points and need to once again win another extra 2 or 3 games to reach 100

Demonsolder21Jan 22, 20151 votes

Nope. Esp after they made it hidden.

Zakt0nFeb 9, 20151 votes

I noticed that too....silver had many clueless players that were not even sure they were playing a ranked game. Many games had people saying "what is this" when the draft screen opened. Then if you get teamed with these newbie silvers too much...you might become bronze like me :) Makes rank just luck of the draw.