I've been seeing a lot of posts about Shen since last week. So, let's talk Shen.

Melledoneus··13 votes·3,891 views

Before I begin, I've all but grown disillusioned with this champion. I don't really have fun playing him anymore and honestly that's muted any bias I may have had quite a bit. So, before anybody tries to claim I'm pandering to the champion because I am not neutral, don't waste your time.

#The Problem Shen's been a bit of an odd champion in his history. He used to be a tank made for dueling, then reworked to fulfill that destiny to a higher degree. However, one thing that has remained consistent is that Riot loves to nerf him. While I can try to be that guy who claims that Riot is crap or they have a hard-on for seeing Shen mains suffer, I'm just going to list the real issues so that we don't get sidetracked here. ##1. Shen is too powerful in organized play. The combination of Shen's ultimate and taunt make him a formidable presence in a level of the game where teamwork is perfect down to the t. You can't really play around Shen's strategy in pro play of pushing a side lane and ulting in to help in a fight. Well, that used to be the case back in season 6. Regardless, his ultimate grants him unparalleled global presence which can be powerful in the right hands. In the hands of a pro player, this power is overbearing. ##2. Shen suffers from design philosophies that don't quite mesh well with the game. Shen is listed as a tank. However, most of his tankiness comes in the form of his skills. If you don't believe me, compare his HP growth stat to any other melee and you will see he comes up short when it comes to base stats. However, some of these skills make no sense when you add them up together. His passive is the spirit sword, which he can position to debilitate his enemies and deal extra damage. However, while you would expect him to have his kit revolve around this sword, you wouldn't expect him to only have one way to use it: his Q. His W is another skill that could make sense until you look at the numbers and the specifics. 1.75 seconds for a dodge zone that you cannot fully control on a 16 second cooldown seems kind of harsh, especially considering how it's his only self-defensive ability apart from his passive shield. Its only practical use is for 1v1s, since you cannot position it for allies outside of the first second when you arrive with your ult. His kit has decent tools that are kept relatively weak because they are too strong, but they don't flow well together. There's only one combo where they do, and it depends on a skillshot on a champion who is already jumping into a fight with a flat-out stat disadvantage. It makes very little sense from a design standpoint.

So with these two main issues, let's take a look at the diagnosis: ##Shen is an unhealthy champion on a similar tier to pre-rework Irelia.

#The Solution To put it in simple terms, Shen's main strengths come in these forms:

  1. Instant global interference that is almost always guaranteed.
  2. Tools that are too powerful to have good numbers.
  3. Kick-ass thematics.

Now, number 3 can't be helped, so we'll tackle the other two.

##Make the ultimate less streamlined. Shen's ultimate at the moment is 'press R on champion and get shield and teleport.' There's no thought or mechanical skill to using it besides timing. So, we should emphasize good timing and use and make it easier for enemies to play around. Some suggestions would be:

  1. Make Shen's ultimate have a 'charge-up' period where he has to click R again if he wants to 'snap-cast,' resulting in a pitiful or no shield at all. Waiting a little longer will grant a larger shield. This will allow him to have a more powerful ultimate while making it less overbearing.
  2. Make Shen globally visible to all units when he uses his ultimate. This will grant the ability true global presence, like Sion's ultimate gong, giving enemies time to react or stop Shen. This global presence will allow the ability to be much, much stronger because of its announced cast.
  3. Make the shield redirect damage to Shen. This way, if Shen ults an ally under heavy fire, he can save them, but at a cost. He may come in with a lot of his HP gone, and thus lose the fight, adding another aspect to his ultimate for him, his allies, and his enemies to consider.

##Make Shen's tools less gimmicky. The title. His tools are just a pile of gimmicks at the moment, and hold back his stats because they are too strong. What can be done to fix this? Well, here are a few examples:

  1. Remove that stupid W and give him an AoE shield. That, or make the W jump to an ally or himself by targeting, as well as his spirit sword, and slap a larger energy cost on it. That, or give it a higher cooldown. This would remove a lot of the issues regarding his lack of combos while giving him an actual tool to use for his allies.
  2. Remove the spirit sword slow and instead give Shen a movement speed buff toward the enemy he pulls his Q toward. This would allow enemies much faster than Shen to escape his twilight assault while simultaneously making his E the only tool he has to pick his enemies. The slow at this point is a joke and a bit of an oppressive mechanic, so a movement speed buff would increase his reliance on his E, granting him the ability to catch up to his enemies if they position wrong while also making his E even more central to his kit.

#Conclusion

In conclusion, Shen sucks because of gimmicks. His ultimate, his W, his spirit sword... these are all tools that actually hold back this champion from ever being viable in solo queue. Feel free to discuss.

45 Comments

La Bello4 votes

uhh... can...can we have the double katana's back?

those were pretty kick ass. Best ninja turtle too. I liked it way better than the CQC Ionian buck knife he uses now.

Linna Excel1 votes

{quoted}

Best ninja turtle too.

Leo lacked everything a real leader needed and often came off as whiny.

La Bello1 votes

1.Mikey 2.Leo (except he def has his moments) 3.Ralph 4.Donny

this is undisputable facts

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Raph may be an idiot but at least he actively goes does stuff on his own instead of being one of Splinter's mindless henchmen. I personally dislike Raph cuz of his irrational temper, but he's more respectable than the rest of the team.

Mikey is just a bum who only does things cuz Leo/Splinter else tells him to but he's the most fun character.

Donny's is also a mindless henchman but smarter but also a very dry character.

And Leo is one of the most dry, boring characters to ever exist who also only acts when Splinter tells him to.

Raph carries the plot interest of every show, while Mikey carries the comedy relief. Donny and Leo are just there to fill the other two slots and meet plot conditions.

So imo, Raph is the best turtle.

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

{quoted}

Ralph

#ralph?

His name is Raphael.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Lmao I knew the full name, idk why I shortened it to Ralph.

RookPusher3 votes

I like the concept of his ult not requiring skill, but to resolve that I think he should warp to a location, and within X number of feet he should shield the ally with the least health. This means he has to either plan to be in position ahead of a runner, or attempt to shield the ally but then end up way behind.

Also, I like the idea of the global awareness, and to add more flavor, once Shen's ult because available for use, I think there should be a global sound as there is when Sion or Kled use their ult, but again, this would be for when it's available.

You've made the right points here. Shen is OP because of organized play, and the nerfs they give him don't change that really. He's still far better in Flex than solo. The way to nerf him is to make communications far less valuable. And his point and click up is a great start.

Teridax682 votes

I agree with this. Shen's biggest problem is that he's far too reliable in organized play, and Riot's attempts to nerf him there have only further harmed his performance at all other elos, when he's already fairly weak there. In general, it also feels like he's stuck halfway between two worlds: most players pick him because they want a badass tank who can duel in lane and then help out his team, but pros pick him because of his ultra-powerful ult, and little else. He needs to find balance between the two if he is to feel both satisfactory and healthy at all degrees of mastery.

I also very much agree that the spirit sword mechanic was a failure. The system is gimmicky and not all that relevant Shen's core gameplay, and in the end only adds complication to a champion whose prime source of difficulty should be the usage of his ult. The abilities tied to the sword are also not that great, with the W in particular clashing with his innate shield. I'd personally advocate stripping him of the mechanic entirely, and finding other ways of making him interact with his opponents in lane.


Adding to this, I've had a paper kit for Shen in mind for some time that I think could get to what the thread OP suggests (with placeholder numbers):

  • Stats:
  • Max energy reduced to 100 from 400.
  • Base AD increased to 65 from 60.
  • AD growth increased to 5 from 3.
  • Base health increased to 600 from 540.
  • Health growth increased to 90 from 85.
  • Base armor increased to 35 from 34.
  • Armor growth increased to 3.5 from 3.
  • Innate - Ki Barrier: Shen shields himself for 15% maximum health (+ 60% AP) for 2 seconds after using an ability. This can only happen once every 10 / 8 / 6 / 4 seconds at levels 1, 6, 11 and 16 respectively.
  • Q - Twilight Shift: Shen prepares to shift to the spirit realm over 1 second, which does not impede any of his other actions. At the end of the duration, he and all nearby units are shifted to the spirit realm for 2 seconds, during which they are invisible and untargetable to all units in the physical realm, while also being unable to see and target them (possibly also applies some graphical filter to indicate the shift). While inside the spirit realm, Shen switches swords, gaining 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100% (+ 10% per 100 AP) bonus attack speed. At the end of the duration, all units are brought back to the physical realm.
  • Costs 25 Energy.
  • 9 / 8.5 / 8 / 7.5 / 7-second cooldown.
  • W - Feint: Shen reacts to the next instance of champion damage he takes within 0.5 seconds, blinking behind his attacker and slowing their movement away from him by 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% for 1 second.
  • Costs 25 Energy.
  • Has no cooldown.
  • E - Kinkou Dash: Shen dashes in the target direction, taunting all enemies he hits for 0.5 / 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 seconds and dealing them 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+ 100% AP) magic damage.
  • Costs 50 Energy.
  • 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10-second cooldown.
  • R - Stand United: Shen channels over 4 seconds, during which time all damage taken by the target allied champion is transferred to him instead (his health is also indicated on the target's health bar as a shield). Upon successfully completing the channel, Shen then blinks directly in front of the target.
  • Costs no Energy.
  • 200 / 175 / 150-second cooldown.

The idea here being that Shen would be a Warden focused primarily on mobility and taking either allies or enemies out of combat, with some dueling power to help him. His basic ability set should ideally be easier to pick up, and he would also have an option for an AP build that offers clear differences from his main, tanky build. His ult would also be nerfed overall, retaining its core elements while preventing Shen from teleporting on-demand with no consequences.

Ralanr1 votes

So...if I understand this right, his Q would allow him to trade while invisible and make his own minions invisible? Shouldn't he break stealth when hitting someone?

Teridax681 votes

Um, what? I specifically mentioned that the invisibility and untargetability would be two-way: any unit in the spirit realm would be untargetable and invisible to units in the physical realm, but also vice-versa. Shen would make himself invisible and untargetable, but would also have strictly no way of seeing, let alone attacking opponents he didn't catch.

Melledoneus1 votes

So what will be his source of damage? His Q no longer has any damage, so what will get him through the early game?

Teridax681 votes

It has an attack speed boost, though? His E also still deals damage, and I suggested buffing his base AD and growth on top of all this.

Ralanr1 votes

I don't think he should be maxing his E for damage.

Teridax681 votes

It also increases his taunt duration, so whether or not damage is your specific goal, there's an option to max it out early, and still get more out of it via the taunt. In the end, Shen currently has 2 damage sources on his actives, and would continue to have 2 damage sources on his actives.

Ralanr1 votes

Because his Taunt isn’t meant to be his main damage source.

I tried maxing it first when his rework cane around, it’s not very useful. Plus if you’re maxing a taunt first, it means Shen can trade unfairly more often.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Because his Taunt isn’t meant to be his main damage source.

It's one of his only two damage sources, though, and my other proposed damage source is an attack steroid, very much like the current one. What is your criticism again?

{quoted}

I tried maxing it first when his rework cane around, it’s not very useful. Plus if you’re maxing a taunt first, it means Shen can trade unfairly more often.

Except I proposed to nerf the base duration, and have it scale up to current values. Why is this unfair?

Ralanr1 votes

Imo, because it’s effectively forcing people to trade against their will.

Yes that’s taunts in general, but they usually aren’t maxed first.

Teridax681 votes

Sure, but in the end, that's just a slightly more roundabout way of dealing (and taking) some extra damage if you hit someone with Shen's dash. I reduced the taunt duration at early ranks precisely for the reasons you mentioned, too, so I really don't see where the issue would come from here.

Melledoneus1 votes

It sounds like he'll be more of a bruiser. Which is fine, I just hope that his early game gets some better dueling power.

Also that phase shift is freaking nuts! That will be crazy strong in pro play.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

It sounds like he'll be more of a bruiser.

And this is different from current Shen... how, exactly? Both kits have exactly two sources of damage, one of which is direct damage on E, and the other is an attack steroid that boosts attack speed, and pushes Shen to build on-hit.

{quoted}

Also that phase shift is freaking nuts! That will be crazy strong in pro play.

... but not anywhere else? Why?

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

And this is different from current Shen... how, exactly? Both kits have exactly two sources of damage, one of which is direct damage on E, and the other is an attack steroid that boosts attack speed, and pushes Shen to build on-hit.

Fair point. But E was never meant to be his source of damage, his on-hits were.

... but not anywhere else? Why?

Pros always find ridiculous ways to abuse certain mechanics. They could coordinate to completely remove a key member or two from a fight and completely wreck teamfights. That mechanic itself would mean everything else would have to be weak if Shen could have it.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Fair point. But E was never meant to be his source of damage, his on-hits were.

Okay, but again, no change here from the current version. If you don't want damage outside of on-hits, that's fine, but then taking damage out of the taunt means Shen would have exactly one source of damage, which would make matters worse.

{quoted}

Pros always find ridiculous ways to abuse certain mechanics. They could coordinate to completely remove a key member or two from a fight and completely wreck teamfights. That mechanic itself would mean everything else would have to be weak if Shen could have it.

... except being able to remove key targets from a fight is precisely the intent of this ability, so it's not like it's some high-end abuse case. Moreover, doing so would remove Shen himself as well, at the very least. How exactly are you quantifying the power of this ability again?

Z3Sleeper2 votes

{quoted}

  • W - Feint: Shen reacts to the next instance of champion damage he takes within 0.5 seconds, blinking behind his attacker and slowing their movement away from him by 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% for 1 second.
  • Costs 25 Energy.
  • Has no cooldown.

Lmfao okay why not

Beatrice falls1 votes

About his ult, wouldn't it be extremely broken for botlane ganks ? Like from a 2v2, you could instantly turn it into a 4v2 if your jungler has stealth (using it as an offensive way instead of a defensive way)

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

I just want Vorpal blade back in some form. Is it asking too much for him to have a camille W that scales on HP at least? I want some power IN shen since HE is the balance.

I know that the dodge-zone and all that is cool, but it is just broken in pre-made organized plays.

Primaquarius1 votes

Make the shield redirect damage to Shen. This way, if Shen ults an ally under heavy fire, he can save them, but at a cost.

This is very canon, considering he is protecting his ally through some type of connection

GripaAviara1 votes

Shen's super broken, the fact he has 2 TP and can completely change a TF in soloq where there's 0 coordination makes him top pick

Death by Glamour1 votes

not much to add nor discuss as you have have hit all the nails with the hammer so to say.

the ult change is interesting but I do not see it allowing for compensation buffs to other parts of his kit, granted I haven't watched lcs since aatrox jungle was meta and regi was TSMs midlaner but im guessing his ult is used just as often to get to a fight as it is to protect a team member from dying

one thing about old shen was his damage was pants, Q -> passive empowered AA was as good as it got unless you went atmas and something like wits end, he could hold a lane decently enough and had the sustain to keep him there. The rework changed that, he could stand his grounf and trade with a lot of the toplane roster.

Linna Excel1 votes

Replace his ult. That's the best way to fix him. It's too good for pro play and it's sucking up all his power budget. Then rework him based off of a different ult.

Vlada Cut1 votes

I like W's effect and AoE but dislike how it's binded to his Q's position. Unbinding it would make Shen position for alies perfectly withoitbsoending too mich energy. Also I'd love to see him be able to successfully use lifesteal with his Q, don't want to just use grasp/ravenous hunter only, I want to be able to use other non sustsinable runes like PTA and not get punished for it.

Devinatiol1 votes

I mean thematically I think he needs to be really different, like yes a tank but a different kind of tank, a tank that cant rely on his stats much but rather proper combos and landing skills to achieve effective tankiness

Melledoneus1 votes

The problem with this is other tanks can simply outlast him by doing absolutely nothing.

It can be quite disheartening.

Paroe1 votes

I used to be a pre-rework shen main. I really miss him...

What shen really needs is;

  1. Lose the spirit sword mechanic. Its silly.
  2. His base stats need to reflect those of a tank, not soraka or sona.
  3. His passive shield needs to decay into health for recovery in lane.
  4. His Q needs to become a ranged, targeted ability that scales with health.
  5. His W needs to become some kind of on demand shield. Maybe his auto attacks become enhanced while shielded for melee trades, similar to an on-hit janna shield?
  6. His ult needs to be a lot less reliable. Remove the TP mechanic and turn it into a global dash that scales off movement speed - say shen gets a 20% movement speed increase and can move through terrain. Perhaps he could even utilize the new Obscured debuff instead of a shield? It'd be pretty interesting, and be a lot more interactive, to have a global 'oh shit' button that, if your allies are smart, can save them but have more counterplay than "i hurt you more!" like it does now.
Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

  1. His Q needs to become a ranged, targeted ability that scales with health.
Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly the only problem with pre-rework shen was his kunai toss needed to scale with health and his passive also needed to scale properly. Riot has moved beyond the whole "Abilities all scale with AP" phase - they threw that in the dumpster almost a decade ago.

onionsan011 votes

Melledoneus would you pls take a look at this discussion i posted today? thk you and have a nice day

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/it/c/gameplay-balance/mEEvBwr0-shen-discussion-about-his-ability-and-playstyle

Melledoneus2 votes

Your post has some serious merit and a lot of effort, good job!

What I would recommend, though, is when you want to tell people something is weak or low, always provide a number or two. It makes your evidence sound a lot more concrete. For example, you say that Shen's shield doesn't shield much, but until you provide numbers people will shrug off that point.~~~~

onionsan011 votes

{quoted}

Your post has some serious merit and a lot of effort, good job!

What I would recommend, though, is when you want to tell people something is weak or low, always provide a number or two. It makes your evidence sound a lot more concrete. For example, you say that Shen's shield doesn't shield much, but until you provide numbers people will shrug off that point.~~~~

I changed it a little bit. Sorry that i can't do that now because i have problems with my job . If i had more time i would have done it

And A Real Hiero1 votes

Riot doesn't like Shen, they will simply keep him in a nerfed state and focus on more popular champs. I mean look at his recent skin, the splash art is amazing and ingame he looks like hes wearing a toupet with a cosplay outfit glued to his body.

Done251 votes

The problem with Shen is that he's this awkward hybrid "Duelist/Juggernaut/Warden".

He's not really an actual tank. He lacks the AoE damage to be a threat in team fights. 99% of his damage comes from his Q, which is single target.

Having a champion who can't be burst and is good at 1v1 has always been problematic in LoL history. Normally you counter this by forcing team fights while they split push, but Shen can Ult to his team near instantly.

Suggestion 1: Give his Q Tiamat like splash properties. This makes him a threat in team fights without buffing his 1v1 power.

Suggestion 2: Add more AP values to his kit to reward Shen for dipping into AP. Add it to his shield passive and the damage on his dash (while also increasing dash damage to make it more rewarding to land in general). Maybe add an AoE heal over time to his Spirit Refuge that is increased based on missing HP, or maybe have it reduce AoE damage taken and let it scale with AP that way.

Suggestion 3: Remove the global portion from Shen's ult. Global is just far too stong. Give it Galio like range to force him to stay somewhat near his team so he can't just ult to bot all the way from top at lv 6. It could be given a reduced channel time in exchange.

Raven Redeemed1 votes

Nice analysis. Just gonna throwout a few ideas:

  • Q is changed to a skill shot. It shields or grants a MS bonus to allies it passes through. This would allow Shen to reposition his sword in more interesting ways. For example he could E behind an enemy and then Q through the enemy to his allies as they follow up.

  • W area is significantly larger and/or lasts longer but does not block all AA damage but instead grants AA damage resistance (maybe blocks on-hits effects). This would let Shen create an area of safety for allies as a proactive play instead of just being used as a reactionary play for his own safety. Maybe Shen's defensive stats could be buffed as this would be a nerf to his 1v1.

  • Another idea for his ult, do not provide the full shield values on-cast but instead over the duration of the channel. Not sure if I like this idea myself as it would maybe require more team coordination than before.

NemeBro1 votes

Shen's problem is his ult.

It has always been his ult. Just stripping away the strength of his shield or making him take some damage isn't enough. It needs a hefty nerf on its range and reliability.

Reapercrt1 votes

I roll with Shen, Actually he is my favorite character, you just have to know how to use him.

Melledoneus1 votes

I often snowball with him, too. Most of my games, actually.

However, you have to be several skill levels abive your opponent to defeat them. They win on equal terms unless it's something useless like Nunu top.

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