I've come to realize that if you're failing as Blue Kayn, it's not the form's fault... it's yours.

MrNuclearPumpkin··36 votes·9,698 views
https://i.imgur.com/WbT3ByU.jpg

The form is actually telling you something. There's a reason why it goes by what you've been doing all game. If you're fighting bruisers all game and you're deep in fights and you're going in and keeping up the frontline, then it's going to go for red. Cause that's what it is. It deals damage, but it also has staying power and sustain along with engage with knockups.

But unless you're ridiculously fed out of your mind, you're not gonna assassinate that Tristana with it. You'll do damage of course and you'll be able to knock them up for your team to collapse, but you ain't gonna drop her.

Blue Kayn however, will. For those that say that it sucks, maybe it's because they're playing it like red kayn and blindly dive in from the frontlines. Has anyone actually SEEN the numbers that Blue Kayn has? It's actually mindboggling how much damage this guy outputs.

The fact that his passive lasts for 3 seconds and during that instance you deal 44% MORE bonus damage on top of your regular damage that can also reset when you use your ultimate. You also gain slow removal and slow immunity. That's... terrifying if you're a squishy.

The arguement: But Blue Kayn gets screwed by tons of CC.

So does Red. Seriously, Kayn doesn't like hard CC chains. Doesn't matter if you're bruiser red with black cleaver and tank items or blue kayn with enough damage to choke a Draven. If they focus their CC on you, you're gonna die.

Another argument: I drop on the ADC and they don't die.

Blue Kayn literally has every tool needed for him to get that kill as quickly on the ADC as possible. A huge range on his slow, a slow immunity, 70% movement speed buff, extra range on his ultimate, a MASSIVE damage steroid with his passive and a means to reset that passive.

If you're unable to get kills as Blue Kayn, then it's something you did wrong, not the form.

61 Comments

Jbels22 votes

Yes, playing a form incorrectly will have implications on whether or not you do well with it. But that is NO excuse for the piss poor clarity involved with trying to transform. There are facets of it that aren't even explained unless you look it up online, where it is explained by NON-Riot sources. Kayn needs a huge clarity pass on that passive

Raven Redeemed4 votes

I also wonder if he should really be locked out of one transformation when he unlocks another. I know it's thematic, but it sucks when you are punished for ganking normally or being forced to attack certain champs if you want a certain form. I'd at least suggest it be changed from ranged vs melee to squishy vs bruiser(y).

SciTiger5 votes

Nah, they have already fixed that issue. If you get the wrong form you can wait (4 minutes I believe) to unlock both forms. Ya, you will forgo an early power spike, but if you are 100% certain that you need the other form in order to win the game, just hold out the 4 minutes and take the one you need.

Being locked into one form is part of his balance though. Take that check away and he become way too strong.

Raven Redeemed6 votes

Sorry, I didn't word that properly. By "locked out" I was referring to his 4 minute wait time and by "unlock" I meant the ability to get his first form.

I'm saying I don't think the 4 minute wait is very healthy. If you get the ability to get form 1 at 10 min then you have to wait 4 min to get form 2. At that point the game is probably half over and you just spent 1/3 of it without the tons of power his forms bring all because you attack more of one type of a champ than the other. I don't think choosing between (possibly) sub-optimal gank routes (to attack ranged/melee) or forgoing early game power (waiting 4 min) makes much sense balance-wise.

SciTiger3 votes

As a Kayn main in S7 I can definitely understand that point of view. This whole mechanic is exactly what makes Kayn so complex though. Mechanically not so much, but when it comes down to planning your macro strategy around not only what would make the most sense for snowballing the right lanes, but also coming out with the proper form early that's what makes Kayn both difficult and rewarding.

Honestly, you want to know how to get your jungle macro down pat? Learn how to play Kayn as efficiently as possible, then switch to a different champ. You will be amazed at how much your pathing and future planning improves.

Besides, the only time the damage type you do matters is the last auto attack before the gauge is full. His available form doesn't take into account any of the previous damage you have done. You can literally spend all of your time ganking bot and then head top lane for one auto attack to top off the passive. If the top laner is melee you get Rast. If the top laner is ranged you get Shadow.

It's pretty easy to manage if you pay attention to how full that circle is.

Raven Redeemed1 votes

Good advice! I've been playing him a lot recently but I feel like I still have a lot to learn. Like you said, his mechanics aren't difficult but how his passive affects his damage, macro, team fight role, and item builds does make him complex.

Out of curiosity do you ever go with a few defensive items on blue Kayne? I've tried some pretty defensive builds on poro king (which obviously is quite different from SR) and they worked out great. For example, I'd get item 3065 and/or item 3742 when the enemy team only had a certain damage type, our team had no tanks, or I wanted the anti-kite benefits of blue as a bruiser. I was able to take some hits but still deal a lot of damage with his passive. Is that ever a good idea on SR, or not really?

SciTiger2 votes

Thats a good question, but to be honest I'm very careful about telling people how to build their champ considering there is no "perfect" build. I have one or two core items that are favored depending on the form, but after that everything is completely situational.

I will tell you this. It's great that you are experimenting. Never stop doing that. Test new builds and push yourself as a player as far as you can. See what works for you in certain situations and doesn't work in others. TAKE NOTES! Write things down to solidify them in your personal playbook even more.

I personally would not build a SV on blue kayn though unless you had previously built some lifesteal or are using lifesteal runes. If you have say... a Death's Dance and a SV not only would you get the burst reduction from DD but you would have the extra healing from SV. If you don't have lifesteal at all though SV would be a waste of gold considering you wouldn't be utilizing the passive.

I do like building DMP on both forms in certain situations though (especially if I'm snowballing) because the added movement speed lets me abuse my leed even more and the extra burst doesn't hurt AT ALL.

Great questions though and good luck!

Raven Redeemed1 votes

Thanks, for the advice! I agree SV isn't great (part of why I built is because the regen and heal buff is much better on HA than SR).

SciTiger1 votes

Nice, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. Way to think outside the box mate.

Good luck on the rift!

Sraeg20131 votes

If you mean those items as a consideration for the 5/6th slot then I guess why not, but if we are talking about... well... the rest of the game, you're shooting yourself in the foot not building full damage.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

False. There is a rhaast circle and a kayn circle. Unfortunately you can only see one. It's possible to get one "melee champ hit" away from rhaast and still be 5 "ranged champ hits" away from shadow kayn. Not a super big deal bc the amount of "charge" you get increases as the game goes on, but there are two separate transformation meters. Super annoying that it's visualized as one.

Doozku1 votes

Besides, the only time the damage type you do matters is the last auto attack before the gauge is full. His available form doesn't take into account any of the previous damage you have done. You can literally spend all of your time ganking bot and then head top lane for one auto attack to top off the passive. If the top laner is melee you get Rast. If the top laner is ranged you get Shadow.

That's not how it works. There's two bars that fill up seperatly but the later the game goes the faster the bar fills up. If you have 0 meter but you gank top 10 minutes in and get a kill the bar would likely completely fill up regardless.

BlaQ Goku1 votes

You are incorrect about the last aa for the gauge. That is a common misconception. The reason people tend to think that only the last aa determines transformation is because the orbs that drop for the passive increase in value as the game goes on. So, if you have damaged melee champs all early game and have the gauge almost full but then get in one fight later and damage a ranged champ, there is a good chance that the ranged "hidden" gauge will just out fill the previously high melee gauge.

Sraeg20131 votes

Technically IT IS the last bit of damage that decides which form is unlocked, because you simply cannot unlock Rhaast hitting ranged nor can unlock Shadow hitting melees.

Sraeg20131 votes

That's not how it works. Well, partially, but it's all about the fact orbs see a drastic increase in value past the 10/11 minute mark, as in one kill can fill half the bar.

That doesn't mean that you can gank ranged champions whole time and then last hit a top laner to get Rhaast. No, that you can't do.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Having to choose sub-optimal gank rounes might feel bad, but Kayn has ability to scale into a from that counters tanky champions heavily or, at his choosing, to a form that counters squishies heavily. He needs to pay a lot for that.

Z3Sleeper6 votes

Not to mention how fluid Blue Kayn's combo as a whole is. You can WQ-AA all in the span of 0.1 second which is beyond anyone's reaction time if you catch them out right (and typically that's all you need to kill).

Deunne1 votes

I mean, hes an assassin in blue form so most likely its combos are smooth and fluid, take talon for example e-r-q-w or zed w-q-e-w-r or w-w-r-e-q-(r if you want to escape)

LordGeovanni1 votes

Thats not really saying much as every champion wants smooth and fluid animations though it usually gets cut out of fighters and tanks

Shaydrox1 votes

if you e-r-q-w as talon you need to be like 15-0 to kill anything, much better to e-w-q-r

Demon King Maou5 votes

I've come to realize

Kayn's basic skin is 100X better than his RP skin

Riot please fix this by giving kayn 7 new skins all at the same time

Sraeg20131 votes

Well, I'd say his Rhaast form is lit with either skin.

Spank the Fox1 votes

His SA on Soulhunter is much nicer.

Then again, I got the skin for 540ish RP thanks to my store

SciTiger3 votes

Ya... This has some truth to it, but its a much more complex issue than that... A good Kayn looks to transform in less than 10 minutes. That's roughly laning phase. In this game if top lane is traditionally tanky and bot lane has a range support + adc which lane do you pay the most attention to? The one you can snowball.

Let's say top lane gets destroyed because your laner is inting. The enemy top laner is 2 levels over you and fed out the wazoo. Do you fight him? NO!!! As a matter of fact you don't go anywhere near him. You focus on what can counter him... like your adc... So you spend most of your time focussing bot lane and they snowball out of control. Most of your damage is done to the enemy adc/support so you get blue form, but the issue is... they won't be a problem now anyway. Not during mid-late game anyway. The tanky juggernaut top laner will. You will need to peel for your adc, be a front line AND do %health damage to him to win the game... but you have blue Kayn.. At that point it just comes down to praying that your ADC is better than their tank, because there isn't a lot you are going to do other than taking out the already irrelevant enemy ADC.

There is some truth to your post, and I mostly agree with it. There are however, quite a few angles that were overlooked.

Sraeg20131 votes

Less than 10 minutes? That'd require non-stop fighting and being a laner, not a jungler.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

I usually transform under 10, and only jungle him.

Sraeg20131 votes

Unless jungler creeps drop orbs now, I'm not willing to believe that.

I played way too many games where I literally fought for every CS in the lane and barely scrapped for the 10 minute mark.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Orbs become worth more as the game progresses, so all those early game orbs you get as lane kayn aren't worth shit. Lol. I've transformed as low as 8 something jungling him before, but those were all great games. Right around ten is when I usually transform. ~12 if I'm struggling.

Sraeg20131 votes

Orbs become worth more as the game progresses

Thanks, Sherlock.

so all those early game orbs you get as lane kayn aren't worth shit.

So are all those you get on ganks.

Lol. I've transformed as low as 8 something jungling him before, but those were all great games. Right

No, those were games with DFG before Kayn's passive got bugfixed.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

? Why do you think the 2-3 minute orbs are all I get on jungle kayn? Lol. Kayns passive got bugfixed months ago. I'm talking about games that happened over the last few weeks.

You sound hostile. Don't get salty bc my kayn plays better and transforms earlier than yours, man. Lol. Would you feel better if I uploaded some replays for you? Maybe you'd learn how to play him.

Sraeg20131 votes

Would you feel better if I uploaded some replays for you? Maybe you'd learn how to play him.

Yes, please. I was going to watch some sketch comedy anyway.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

If you're after comedy, I'll just leave you to watch your own replays. If you want to see some legitimate gameplay, just let me know and I'll upload some for you.

Sraeg20131 votes

No, my own replays are the tragedy, not the comedy.

I already said "yes, please", because I want to know what a person with 44% winrate on a champion I have 54% can possibly teach me or how the "legitimate gameplay" looks like.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Lol. Spammed him on release. Last couple of weeks of the season I was just under 70% wr, for those few weeks, on both him and xin and got diamond. Currently at work, but I'll show you all the tricks when I get off ;)

Sraeg20131 votes

You had 70% winrate on Kayn... and then you lost 20 games in a row, yes?

That's commendable.

Alex h87212 votes

Tbh blue kayn is my preferred from (unless the enemy team has like 3 tanky champs, ex- Ornn top Rammus jg Alistar support) because you can burst any squishy and the flanking potential is huge

MetalGearTeemo2 votes
Sraeg20132 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VicLfrXlCHA

Not only the way you play is important, but also what you build. The last time I got Kayn on my team (that wasn't me) the guy rushed Black Cleaver on Blue Kayn.

https://i.imgur.com/Br00TCn.gif?b

Unsurprisingly he was doing negative damage even to squishies.

On the other hand even when you're playing Rhaast having Duskblade is a must, unless you're literally against 4 tanks.

4262872 votes

Red is the standard choice and always viable no matter what. Blue is only good against 4 or 5 squishes.

Deunne1 votes

If youre loosing on pure burst damage Blue the way to go, if youre loosing alot of tank AND damage Red is the best, it matters on your playstyle and what type of champion or character you like playing (ie. fast and full of damage mostly aggressive-yasuo talon, damage and tanky passive aggressive-garen darius etc. etc.)

Incognonymous1 votes

I get that it's risk vs. reward, and blue form has potential, but I've never been in a situation where red was a BAD choice and plenty where blue was. Red is just that much more useful, and honestly, does completely adequate damage-- enemy stats notwithstanding.

Sraeg20132 votes

Red is a safe choice, you can't really go wrong with it. Blue is a risk choice, if picked in a wrong situation you are a liability, but when picked right you can solo carry easily.

LordGeovanni1 votes

item 3812 Boom blue kayne is now red kayne except without the knock up base damages and blue kayne are better than the Q damages anyway blue kayne ahs extra damage passive and blue kayne doesnt have to sit still for w so he kills people even if they dodge his w because they cant attack him if they take the time to dodge his w unlike red kayne. if anything the extended e time dont should have gone to red kayn blue kayne shouldnt have gotten extra time in e (because sitting in a wall longer is assassin like) while getting extra movement speed from it, it should have been either or not both and i expressed that when kayne came out i never even saw a reason to use red form because blue does more damage tanks arent popular and even when they are they either have lots of hp and no armor which makes you good enough with assassin kayne consitent damage or high Armor which is bad because armor blocks less per 100.

Spank the Fox2 votes

Show your math before spewing that nonsense.

Rhaast is better for drawn out fights, Blue is good to get a pick.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Rhaast relies on 3 melee champion all 3 of them either being tanks or fighters of some type. how often does that happen in solo que? while blue kayne can easily duel any fighter as long as you arent going 3 more than 2 lethality items while still having the burst to one shot adcs and 80% mages

I NEED HEALlNG1 votes

are you kidding me? Blue Kayne can virtualy one shot the adc with a W add a q he's/she's dead.

NOT only does blue shit on squishies, he utterly shits on tanks and bruisers too.

GGLineaR1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I NEED HEALlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O1dOBaXM,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-01-05T07:33:15.930+0000)

are you kidding me? Blue Kayne can virtualy one shot the adc with a W add a q he's/she's dead.

NOT only does blue shit on squishies, he utterly shits on tanks and bruisers too.

For 3 seconds. Then he sucks dick against everyone.

Wheras instead you could just go Red Kayn, gain lots of sustain, CC, AND still shit on tanks 100% of the time. And if you're not doing well against the squishies, there's always item 3147 or item 3814.

Blue Kayn is for shit tons of damage, but that is ALL he does. Red Kayn has decent damage, but also has sustain, tank busting AND CC.

Blue Kayn is just so much more situational that it's usually best to just pick Red.

Wigglepufftuff1 votes

As someone who has been playing almost exclusively kayn for the past month, this is definitely true. If you play well and maybe pick up a kill or two and transform to SA, you become such a monster to anyone under 2000 HP. I've had so many games as him where you just W + Q there squishy and they're just gone. Now, if you get behind on SA then you're straight up screwed. Unless you can somehow drag out the game to get full build (you can't), you're not going to be doing much. Also, if they have multiple tanks with lots of CC, you probably won't be very useful outside of catching people out. With rhaast on the other hand, he feels like less risk less reward, unless there team has 2 or 3 tanks. Of course, if you're fed on rhaast then yeah, you're gonna be hurting them, but you're not gonna 100-0 with two abilities unless you're 3 levels ahead or something.

Steelflame1 votes

The main thing with SA Kayn is that he struggles hard when behind. This is less due to his innate issues though, and more due to issues being a jungle Assassin, and that his core power spike, Duskblade, tends to get built after already finishing the jungle item and his mobis.

Skillful use of his ult is also much more needed, and rewarded.

Many kayns just ult the target to do more damage. Proper ult usage involves waiting for the enemy to try and use their big CC and you dodge it, or to chase a flash/jump over a wall.

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