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A person's rank doesn't invalidate or validate their opinion

MrNuclearPumpkin··149 votes·9,283 views
http://i.imgur.com/6s5eKdv.png

There have been so many times I've seen people use the fact that they're diamond/master/challenger, as their only reason for being right about their opinions, even if that opinion is wrong.

There have also been many times where I've seen people completely ignore a good point by a person because they were bronze/silver/low rank gold.

People in real freaking life, have started conversations about league champions and balance and stuff with "Well I'm a challenger so I would know."

It's really sad how people use these things as a means of intelligence or knowledge. Like the person who only played for about a single season reaches challenger is smarter or knows more than the silver player who's been playing since season 1 and just plays the game casually.

I have a friend who would ask a diamond top lane player who was considered the most powerful top laning champion at the moment and despite the fact that at least 6-7 different websites with valid information have stated that this player was wrong, because that player said that X champion was the strongest, he flat out said, "well he's diamond and I hold his opinion more than I would websites where people who aren't diamond probably voted."

Am i the only one that thinks this?

Edit: This discussion isn't really well explained in my post, which leaves open quite a few misunderstandings in what I meant, so, I'm going to add a little something here to help explain what I mean a little more.

I am a Lulu main. I've played her since late season 2. I know every trick and every move and every change and every position she's ever been played in since her release as a potential jungler, to her being a broken OP af top laner to being the meh champion she is right now and even down to her lore.

If there's a question you need to know about Lulu, I'm your man to go to.

That being said, I'm not the best Lulu NA. There are Lulu mains who have carried her to Master/Challenger in a way I have not.

However, in a little scenario, let's say there's a conversation asking about the best Lulu build and playstyle for her playing mid-lane vs Syndra. Having played that match before I know how to play and win in that lane.

However after I give my opinion and advice, TripleXProGG420 comes in and says the exact opposite (which is wrong). However, that person doesn't know Lulu at all, they never played Lulu, they only are giving information from what they've seen in youtube videos, overall they don't know anything about how to help.

Now normally, who would you listen to? MrNuclearPumpkin who played Lulu more? Or TripleXProGG420 who is just throwing random information out and knows nothing about how the match up actually goes?

Now let's use that same scenario with the same people, but we'll replace our names with our ranks instead.

MrNuclearPumpkin: Gold V TripleXProGG420: Diamond 1

It's the same situation, the same scenario, but now, the ranks are shown. Instantly the people listen to TripleXProGG420 even though his information is wrong simply because he's ranked higher than me and by their thinking, would immediately know more than me.

This is the problem and the point of this thread!

I hope this explains a bit more about what I'm talking about.

Edit 2: Holy crap I did not think this little post of mine would get so much attention ><

272 Comments

Big Lincoln55 votes

it's not an exact measure but generally you can expect higher rank players to have a better idea of the game

Stars Shaper20 votes

Especially on games like this where you need both "tactical" skill and rapid decision making and reflexes there are a lot of ppl that can understand the state of balance and theorycrafting but struggle to put it in practice. Hence said ppl will usually perform and place at a skill level that's a lot inferior to their actual knowledge about the game.

As opposite there are ppl who know few yet effective tricks that can easily reach high tiers with knowledge of 2-3 chars only.

Snowman Arc4 votes

I believe a good division to be in to have your opinion be accepted is gold. If you are smart about the game, you can easily get to gold, even if you are bad mechanically.

Spaceman5pff4 votes

Yeah but would you expect SoloRenektonOnly to have a better idea of Botlane than a Plat 4 Support main? JUST because SoloRenektonOnly is at least 1.5 tiers higher?

Keti4 votes

absolutely, actually.

Spaceman5pff3 votes

It is stupidity like this that constantly reminds me that I may just have a purpose.

King LeBong9 votes

Well since I have played with him, I can guarantee you he has much more knowledge about every lane than a plat 4 player, even though he rarely plays in them.

Rossonious31 votes

if someone who is CHALLENGER makes a statement regarding the game I will literally ALWAYS listen as the odds they're wrong are very slim.

MrNuclearPumpkin17 votes

{quoted}

if someone who is CHALLENGER makes a statement regarding the game I will literally ALWAYS listen as the odds they're wrong are very slim.

Doesn't mean that the person who's silver/gold is wrong ether though. Which is my point.

ForgiveColour7 votes

Silvers and bronze are silver and bronze because they think like a monkey. No reason we should take them seriously when they make monkey plays like walking through enemy turret at level 1

Jet Sett26 votes

Silvers and Bronze might also be unable to put their game knowledge to use, rather than lack it altogether.

ForgiveColour7 votes

You dont understand something if you cant use it so no silvers and bronze shouldnt be taken seriously

Ralanr19 votes

Having the knowledge and being able to apply it properly are two different things.

For example: You can ace your written part of the drivers test but utterly fail the actual driving part.

ForgiveColour4 votes

Thats a terrible example whatever i guess it suits your walk past enemy turret at level 1 bronze strat boat

Ralanr16 votes

{quoted}

Thats a terrible example whatever i guess it suits your walk past enemy turret at level 1 bronze strat boat

Care to explain why?

Lock On1 votes

Seriously? I wouldn't care if Jacob or Mary aced their written exam, if they can't drive for shit, why permit them on the road to be a danger to others? I'm pretty sure the act of driving properly is more important than simply bubbling in answers about it.

Ralanr13 votes

The fact that they failed the drivers test means that they didn't get their license...it's the same as knowing how to play correctly but not being able to utilize that well to get up in ranks.

Lock On1 votes

I fail to see how one can understand how to play the game well, yet fail to do so. It's a fairly simple MOBA game and to call anything mechanical is a huge stretch considering how brain dead it has become (e.g. burst). Hard to believe so many people choke so easily. Heaven forbid they try Starcraft.

Ralanr15 votes

Player 1 has good mechanics but is terrible at the macrogame.

Player 2 understands the macrogame very well, but has bad mechanics.

Simple.

Lock On1 votes

But ingame skill actually conceives results (elo) :D I don't think I've ever met a player who was fantastic as a solo queue player but terrible at giving advice. Unless of course, he/she was a boosted monkey.

Ralanr19 votes

My point stands is that sometimes you have the knowledge and are unable to apply it right.

You shouldn't automatically disregard someone's opinion just because they are bronze or silver. Nor should you automatically assume your opinion is correct because you're higher elo.

Especially when forums are meant for discussion. Not rank shaming people. Some people haven't climbed yet, doesn't mean they automatically have bad ideas or incorrect opinions. If a bronze player brings up a point and a master tier player agrees with him, does that mean the bronze is still wrong because he's bronze?

Leetri13 votes

Have you heard about sports? There's these things called "coaches" and "commentators" who have immense understanding of the game, how it's played, different strategies, what teams need to do to win, but they're too old, have an injury or lack the physical capacity to actually play. Architects know exactly how you construct buildings, but they don't have the skills to operate the cranes needed to actually build it. For an extreme example, physicists know exactly how and what is needed to fly, but you'd be hard pressed to find one who can actually fly. A player needs practical and theoretical skills to win, but some are only good at one of the parts.

SociopathFriend7 votes

If both sides are offering directly contradictory statements though- one of them has to be wrong.

A: Teemo's AAs will proc Rylai B: Teemo's AAs won't proc Rylai

They cannot both be right. In this case, I'd be more likely to go with the Challenger as they've probably been playing the game longer and with more success than the Silver. And if they're right, that means someone who says the opposite must be wrong.

However, there's a lot of things talked about like balance and whatnot where it's often harder to figure out who's "right" which I suspect is what the thread is really about.

OlafRagnarson2 votes

{quoted}

if someone who is CHALLENGER makes a statement regarding the game I will literally ALWAYS listen as the odds they're wrong are very slim.

Yup, that is why stupid people like you ruin everything. The odds of him being wrong are very high. Dude they are just people who have a knack for the game, and probably spend more time playing than most. Just because they can win the game doesn't mean their opinions are any better. That is like saying a pro baseball player knows better than a non athlete, who may very well be an expert in his field, who is talking about institutional and financial issues regarding major league baseball. You want to bow down to challenger players like a drone? By all means, continue to live life as a drone. Ignorance is bliss.

dont trust girls15 votes

Whilst it stands to reason that a person in challenger is probably right or probably has a more factual basis for his/her opinion they should NOT automatically be held over someone else's opinion.

  • "Hey Hashinshin said that X thing here" So "Y person's opinion must be incorrect because he's challenger and knows how to play the game"

For anyone that does not know, hashinshin is a prime example of a player who has an ego that gets the better of him and he can Never be wrong

[slayer-jinx-catface]

King LeBong1 votes

Hashinishin is a prime example of a d3 level player that played thousands of games to get to where he is, please do not consider him a challenger level player.

dont trust girls3 votes

Well you make a compelling argument! Let us take a look at Hashinshin's Account Here

There's no denying that Hashinshin is a player who has a bad reputation but is he really a player that doesn't deserve challenger?

Hashinshin is a player who actually has really nice mechanics which allow him to get challenger or masters every single season, he knows how to abuse top laners and get leads 1v1. he was 600 lp challenger and has consistently gotten to the apex tier ranks. This is still less than a single percent of the entire league ranked community.

As much as we hate to admit it, if he's been able to secure his rank every single season, he's probably on the same level of play as the other master / challenger players Hashinshin does have shortcomings for sure, all of which are ego based - he could definitely be secured in challenger indefinitely on almost every region if he accepted the fact that his own ego is the problem.

That's my opinion, I'm sorry if you guys don't agree with it! However to put my answer bluntly _If he plays "thousands of games" (huge exaggeration btw) to get to where he is, then you can do the same, no? You could at least secure diamond in "thousands of games" right? _

There is definitely a reason he is in master / challenger tier every season, you can't deny that and in the end we all just have to accept that.
People don't just get challenger / masters every single season from just playing a ton. One of these days he wont secure a spot in masters and then we can laugh at him though [slayer-jinx-wink]

King LeBong1 votes

The reason he's master/challenger is he plays thousands of games a season, and last season he was at the bottom of masters. He's a joke of a player to majority of high elo and that's not all because of his ego and failure to accept fault.

Any d3-d2 player will get masters 30 lp with 3k games.

I would also like to point out thousands of games is NOT an exaggeration, he has had over 3k in multiple seasons, which absolutely qualifies as thousands.

Also if you're implying that I can't get diamond I would like to point out that I'm higher elo than hashinshin with 1/10 of his games on my main and even on one of my smurfs at least, every season.

I'm pretty sure I don't even have 30 games played on this account yet anyways, it's just to use when my queue times turn aids.

LaughingStapler3 votes

{quoted}

The reason he's master/challenger is he plays thousands of games a season, and last season he was at the bottom of masters. He's a joke of a player to majority of high elo and that's not all because of his ego and failure to accept fault.

Any d3-d2 player will get masters 30 lp with 3k games.

I would also like to point out thousands of games is NOT an exaggeration, he has had over 3k in multiple seasons, which absolutely qualifies as thousands.

Also if you're implying that I can't get diamond I would like to point out that I'm higher elo than hashinshin with 1/10 of his games on my main and even on one of my smurfs at least, every season.

I'm pretty sure I don't even have 30 games played on this account yet anyways, it's just to use when my queue times turn aids.

Not true either. Playing a lot of games doesn't magically elevate your ranking if your skill isn't there to match.

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

Somebody is mad that Adrian Riven took the time to come on the boards and pimp slap the retarded Riven posts into place. :^)

Spicy Rice21 votes

I'm pretty sure this post is because of the massive rank shaming that has been going on in the official forums for years now.

On almost any topic, if you ever raise a point, or create a hard to refute argument, you will often see people discounting said point/argument based on the posters rank, rather than the validity of the post.

Tzavok2 votes

And how many times are those posts actually valid? I bet it's not higher than 1 out of 10.

Spicy Rice9 votes

Regardless of how valid they are, you shouldn't be discounting what people say based on their rank.

Doing that, we slowly become an elitist community, which would eventually end up killing the game

LaughingStapler8 votes

yeah, that's true

however, an opinion does merit more consideration when coming from a highly ranked player rather than some bronze. that doesn't mean the highly ranked player is automatically right though.

icedballs8 votes

2 things people forget:

  1. most casters and analysts aren't challenger and most aren't master, unless they specifically invite a guest analyst that is usually a pro or ex pro to give additional insight (sometimes these guys arent even currently challenger either). Does this mean everything the riot/tournament casters and analysts say is invalid because they arent top level players themselves. I seriously doubt that.

A possibly more relatable example: most football analysts arent current pro and could never be pro, does that mean their analysis is invalid? Of course not. They bring in current or ex-pros for additional insight or points of view though for actual field experience.

  1. there is a difference between understanding concepts of strategy and mechanics and being able to perform them physically, whether it be a sport or with a keyboard/mouse/controller. I can completely understand complex mechanics in this game, it does not mean i can actually perform them in game. I am not performing mechanics here on the forums, i am merely discussing them. I can discuss complex mechanics of this game, or any other, it doesnt mean i need to be able to perform them to understand them. Most times people who design the mechanics themselves cannot perform them, does this mean the game designers dont understand them? They may learn of exploits or bugs from players, but I'm pretty sure the concepts of the mechanics arent above their heads because they arent challenger players themselves.

If someone needed to be on the pro level to be able to comment or analyze or cast professional level anything, there would hardly be any qualified analysts or casters available.

vOmvbrawfU7 votes

I always think of it like this. If I slice all my drives in golf, I KNOW that I'm coming outside in on the ball with an open club face. Buuuut, I can't fix my swing. So just because I can't do it, doesn't mean I don't know what I should be doing. Same in League. Sure, my teammate SHOULD KNOW not to all in the fed enemy that's 6 kills, 40cs, and 5 levels ahead of him, buuuut they still do it.

ForgiveColour7 votes

Yeah if bronze can stop making monkey plays like that kalista walkimg through enemy turret at level 1 then ill take them more seriously

MrNuclearPumpkin14 votes

{quoted}

Yeah if bronze can stop making monkey plays like that kalista walkimg through enemy turret at level 1 then ill take them more seriously

And I've seen Master players make the same derpy mistakes.

Ralanr10 votes

The difference is in how common those mistakes are made. Though personally I haven't seen people make that mistake.

Almighty7 votes

http://imgur.com/YQjWJkR

This still makes me laugh.

It was on a thread comparing the quality of Pulsefire Ezreal and PROJECT Ashe.

Almighty.

LordLaurens5 votes

It's a question of authority and knowledge. Example: the best doctor in a small underdeveloped village can still be a bad doctor. I would rather have a mediocre city doctor, who knows medicine and might actually save my life. Same with league, a bronze lulu main is still bronze. Rank relates to game knowledge, being a main of anything does not. It just shows you like the champion. Things that work in bronze won't work higher up and only there will you find actual answers. A sword is the best weapon in a village of sticks, but when you go to a place with guns, your sword will not work so well.

Still, being higher ranked does not make one poop gold. It depends on how you got there. Personally I wouldn't even try to make the comparison between a low elo main and a high elo non-main/non-player of the champ. I would just look for a challenger main, that would be the best bet. Even then, use your own judgement and see what works for you. Worrying about what's best won't help you, results will. Use whatever makes you win. In bronze some cheese strats will indeed make you win more, but you will have to swap it out when you get higher. (kinda like a canon rush in starcraft.. anyone?). Play according to your elo for the best chance to win.

Finally, never care too deeply about what others say. Either accept that you are lazy or don't have the time, or try and see what works. Nothing will get done on words and advice alone.

tldr:

  1. Rank relates to game knowledge
  2. Anything works in bronze, people don't know the game
  3. Be smart when listening to advice, even smart people make mistakes
  4. You rather take advice from masters than from fools.
  5. Don't generalize when you don't have to 6: Stop caring so much 7: Only results matter, talk does not 8: A win in challenger is harder to come by than a win in bronze 9: Because of no 8, winrates are meaningless 10: Getting a higher rank is hard work
Escheton5 votes

"You are 0/3, shut up, your opinion means nothing"-Reply after giving advice on what objective to take or whatevs after getting ganked a few times or something.

^this also

Just because you are having a bad game/kda doesn't mean your information is somehow invalidated,

Colgate Gator5 votes

Yes and no.

Obviously it isn't a clear cut scenario, but one thing I'm sure of is that I'm not going to follow the directions of a Bronze-Silver player when he wants to chase that kill instead of rotating for objectives or not bothering to CS properly in order to try to kill the enemy laner without even warding.

That being said, yes, as a whole, your rank doesn't define you.

SzGamer2274 votes

Totally agree. Rising in ELO requires you to have an understanding of the game, sure, but it's mostly about spur-of-the-moment decision making, map awareness, having good instincts about where missing enemies are and when to take objectives, and having practice with all the matchups you will face. I can earn 250k mastery points on a champion, but having garbage map awareness and poor judgement in scenarios I haven't frequently encountered will keep me in high Bronze. That doesn't mean I can't figure out why one build is better than another, or know which champions counter which and why, or disagree when a top-tier player says something like "Yasuo's greatest weakness is how broken he is."

ThugWalrus3 votes

It's a tricky situation. Being a low rank does not invalidate your opinion. Designers, LCS casters, and analysts are usually not even Diamond yet their game knowledge is vast. That being said, when it comes to Joe Schmo on the boards , rank is often the best indicator of game knowledge because we have no other basis of assessing others' opinions unless we look at their op.gg or something. And rank isn't necessarily a bad indicator either. It usually indicates things like more games played, better macro knowledge, and better mechanics. Of course, the optimal strategy is always just to look at the opinion in a vacuum and make a judgement, but it is easy to default to the "you're X rank, so therefore you opinion is garbage." It is a fallacious argument, but when you're arguing with somebody insisting that Master Yi is the most broken champion ever or that no seriously Mordekaiser jungle is REALLY good, sometimes it is just easier to pull rank than explain to somebody who lacks fundamental game knowledge why it doesnt work.

To speak to your example about Lulu, I'd tend to side with you. Someone who has played hundreds of games of Lulu probably has more to offer in terms of specifics about matchups, builds, runes etc. However, I would still be more likely to side with a high diamond player about stuff like Lulu's viability, or her place in the meta. So if it was a question of whether Lulu is too strong or too weak, or whether Lulu is better mid or support, I'd say the Diamond player is more trustworthy. The diamond player has seen Lulu in the hands of top-tier players and has a better understanding of the meta game etc (usually).

That being said, anyone providing an opinion should back it up with as many facts as possible. Any post that is just like "X champ is broken GG" should be scrutinized, regardless of player rank.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted} rank is often the best indicator of game knowledge because we have no other basis of assessing others' opinions unless we look at their op.gg or something.

What about actually looking at what the person says and seeing if it actually makes any sense or not?

GigaPube3 votes

the main problem here is, people are using their own games, or just the few games they watch of pro games or pro/ex-pro streamers, they're using a few games they physically watch to make entire statements about their opinion of champions/winrates/balance/etc

the good thing about the opinions of high-ranked players is, if they were to use all of their own games to make a subjective but definitive opinion, at least they'd come across a lot of games where, it is the best of the best, playing champions to the best of their ability, especially in those particular games, most of the time. then they can draw statements which have a higher chance of being factually correct because you've taken the variable of individual player skill out of the equation and can more accurately determine what champions are stronger at that time

the bad thing is, as with anybody doing so, making opinions based on your own games, is HIGHLY biased. in fact if there was absolutely no external sources to provide you with information based on every champions state of balance, you could play 100 games, right now, all in a row, and pretty much anyone outside of korean challenger will not have an accurate opinion. its pretty much the way it is from what you'll see from some delusional people on the internet. some people will only play against a champion 2-3 times in 100 games and get destroyed in all of those games, or they can play against another champion, and lose only 20 out of 23 times. those might all be close games though, and they can still say that that champion isnt as strong as the champion that run amok in those 2-3 other games

its the same thing as people inventing their own little metas to complain about, or seeing an idea for one on the internet and they place their own games as examples to see if that idea of a meta fits their own little conditions from the games they played, then they regurgitate it everywhere complaining about it to riot and anyone who doesnt agree. same can be said for champions, such as everyone hating yasuo or riven or vayne. or sometimes there can be people who have mild success on their main, or maybe they just like the way they are, or how they look, so they believe they're a lot stronger than they are and they force their opinions on others based on their own meaningless games

that is truly the problem, the cancer of what is trying to be said here

The Yetii Rider3 votes

"There have been so many times I've seen people use the fact that they're diamond/master/challenger, as their only reason for being right about their opinions, even if that opinion is wrong."

I think you do not know what that word means.

Correct or incorrect, false or true, right or wrong, those are terms that apply to facts.

Opinions, by their very nature, cannot be right or wrong. So half of your premise is faulty.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i disagree. it usually does. not always, but almost always.

you can go through the ladder and youll realize that many silver and gold ranked players dont have issues when it comes to their mechanics. heck, there are players who are more mechanically talented in diamond, than some players in challenger.

but one common trait that almost all low ranked players have is poor game knowledge and decision making. and you cant form a valid opinion about game balance on a poor basis of lacking game knowledge.

the next problem is that more often than not, people are basing their opinion on anecdotal evidence. anecdotal evidence is a bad basis for opinions to begin with, but anecdotal evidence taken from low ranked games is even worse.

so yes, in many cases this means a players rank validates or invalidates his opinion.

Apollogy3 votes

If a bronze player says something that's correct, then it's not an opinion in the first place. What someone says cannot be invalidated by their rank.

That bronze player could be quoting the #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 challenger players in his/her region, who are each from a different role and have different strengths and weaknesses, but all agree that X is true about the game. You wouldn't know that the bronze player is quoting these players, and if you invalidate the knowledge he/she gained from higher level players or tell this player that he/she is wrong...

One, what help is that to anyone.

Two, being that close minded will hamper your ability to improve at the game anyway, so you're really only hurting yourself.

Three, who cares about your opinion on what's fact or fiction? You have absolutely no place or ground to stand on when you're trying to invalidate another's words purely based on their rank...

If that bronze player is wrong, then they are wrong. You can either move on and forget about it, or help explain what's wrong about their way of thinking, but laughing at them or degrading them isn't necessary.

An LCS coach can be ranked Gold and be coaching the highest level of players in the world. (There's at least one that I know of who was Gold). You don't know the person on the other side of the screen, and you don't know who they are or what their own strengths and weaknesses are. Sure, information they gain from bronze is usually not going to be important, however... if this is a bronze player trying hard to improve, then he could be watching high level streams, you tube videos that explain more advanced concepts or strategies, and possibly watching replays of high level games. This bronze player might be in the process of applying newly gained knowledge to his/her games and improving slowly... but you wouldn't know that just by looking at his/her rank. What this bronze player could be saying could actually be 100% fact... This bronze player could know more about a specific topic than a diamond player.

Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. It's possible to reach diamond with nothing but mechanics. (No game knowledge and poor decision making and a bad attitude). There's someone on your team who might have the knowledge and you'll just follow that person's pings. Each and every game. (And sometimes there won't be, but you don't need to win every game to climb). Lower elo players could have more knowledge about the game than higher elo players, because maybe some of those lower elo players are weaker mechanically, or struggle to apply that knowledge while they're in game. It's possible to one trick to Masters. That's mostly a mechanical accomplish, however, on top of that, you're also gaining specific knowledge to your chosen champion and all of its matchups, builds, runes, masteries, and your role in any given situation. Sometimes you're not even aware of some of the knowledge you have and it happens automatically. However, this one trick in Masters might not have the macro knowledge or know much about the champions that play in other roles. This one trick might not know how roaming works out of the mid lane if they're a top laner. They might not know anything about the intricacies of the jungle and how it relates to them and what the enemy jungler's start position, champion, and the lane matchups around the map, and the jungle matchup, all mean for the jungler's path.

There's a reason why that one trick isn't challenger yet. That one trick just isn't that good at the game, they're just good at that champion. You can't really trust that one trick Master ranked player's thoughts on anything about the game other than what relates to their champion and possibly their role. However, that doesn't invalidate what that player says either. The same way a Bronze player might have more general game knowledge than that one trick, but can't apply it in game. That doesn't mean the Bronze player automatically doesn't know the things that he knows.

You've gotta have an open mind to just how complex this game is. I wouldn't trust the 'opinion' or words of someone who invalidates another's words purely based on their rank. I wouldn't ignore it, but I'd be a lot more skeptical, because I know this person has a narrow mind and might not be open to new ideas, and they could have reached whatever rank they are mostly through mechanics rather than learning how the game actually works because they're not willing to learn how the game actually works because they think that they already know how the game actually works.

TL;DR

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