Annie: Problem Child?

SkyblazeHydraX3··5 votes·761 views

I seriously have a few problems with Annie, and I'm not sure if my grievances are legitimate or if I'm just bad. My biggest problem, which bleeds off into the other smaller issues I have with her, is quite honestly the combination of her passive and her ultimate. Annie's stun feels like it lasts quite a while by the time she hits level 6, and with her ulti being instantaneous if you're in range, you're out of luck. And then you combine that with the rest of her incredibly reliable and high-burst kit she can 100-0 most squishies before the stun even expires. To give a point of reference, her kit has only TWO sources of damage with AP ratios under 80%; her Molten Shield, which essentially gives her a Thornmail with an AP ratio, and the DoT from Tibbers.

Annie just doesn't feel like she has any weaknesses. Her Q does a lot of damage, is auto-target, and on-kill restores its mana cost AND halves its cooldown. Combined with Doran's Ring or ANY mana/mana regen items and she is not the slightest bit mana-gated. She has good range in spite of her overall reliability, and with her Molten Shield she can make herself quite durable, mitigating the typical squishiness of burst mages. She has 335 movement speed, making her faster than other champions with less reliable kits.

Yes, Annie has no mobility spells or gapclosers outside of Flash, I am well aware of this. Honestly it doesn't really help, give her a weakness, because if she has you in range there is no dodging ANYTHING except her Incinerate, and even that's questionable. It feels similar to Ryze in all honesty. "Bad scaling" really doesn't seem to be in effect here; she certainly doesn't get easier to deal with the farther along a game gets, especially when she gets fed. I'm not sure if Banshee's Veil existing counts as a weakness, because it's not an innate vulnerability in her kit but an item you HAVE to sink gold into.

Annie's an introductory character, I get that. She's supposed to be easy to play and understand for people new to the game. But that doesn't excuse just how frustrating she is to play against, to the point that she's a high-priority ban for me. So really, am I just missing something? Is there a means of properly dealing with her in solo queue?

19 Comments

Martyrofsand2 votes

Annie has some of the lowest cast ranges in the game. Her Q and W ranges are about equal with 525 AA range, so Graves AA range is her cast range. Because of this limitation she is really tied to flash to land good team fight ultimates. Easiest way to destroy a mid lane Annie? Play Xerath/Orianna/Lux/Azir/etc all of these long range mage champs crush Annie on so many levels its not even funny, and frankly as a guy who plays a lot of mid lane Annie I want to slit my wrists when I see those champs against me.

SkyblazeHydraX32 votes

The wiki seems to say otherwise.

Annie doesn't have a single damaging spell with a range under 600.

Martyrofsand2 votes

Auto attack ranges are calculated from the edge to edge while cast ranges are calculated from center to center. To see what this means load into a bot game with Annie whos AA range is 625 and her spell casting range of her Q is also 625. You will notice her AA range is longer than her casting range, by roughly 100 units which is why I said her casting range is roughly the same as Graves 525 AA range.

Faith Breaker1 votes

Banshee's Veil and Tenacity help alot

wRZcGiWq622 votes

Annie's cast range is her weakness, try playing her against Viktor, Syndra, or someone like that and it is ridiculous. You can never hit them unless they are really bad pretty much. Your arguments are invalid and downvoted for being a scrub trying to get Annie nerfed. -1

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Thank you for your "constructive" reply, please take the attitude elsewhere.

Tsugaga1 votes

Try playing a champ that you think is OP 100-250+ times, then you will realize that they aren't OP. Annie is one of the only champs in my opinion who has been balanced for as long as the game has existed, with just a few tweaks along the way. She probably has more counter picks than any other champ in the game, and there are a lot of mid laners that easily out range her. Just to name a few mages, Morg, Kass, Ori, Lux, LB, Brand, and Azir all do very good against her.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Simply outranging her isn't enough, IMO. Counterplay shouldn't be determined solely in champion select, and whether or not you counterpick Annie or vice-versa. Even if you ARE in range of their spells, there should be some manner of dealing with the champion.

Tsugaga1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sky Drake Blazer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NzvlUzQz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-03-31T07:35:53.844+0000)

Simply outranging her isn't enough, IMO. Counterplay shouldn't be determined solely in champion select, and whether or not you counterpick Annie or vice-versa. Even if you ARE in range of their spells, there should be some manner of dealing with the champion.

And when in range of any other mage that can 100-0 you?

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Name one champion with greater range than Annie and two methods of landing unavoidable CC before 100-0-ing you. Or hell, just one form of unavoidable CC.

Tsugaga1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sky Drake Blazer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NzvlUzQz,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-31T08:09:24.034+0000)

Name one champion with greater range than Annie and two methods of landing unavoidable CC before 100-0-ing you. Or hell, just one form of unavoidable CC.

Malz? Liss? Also, a champ having something unique doesn't make them OP. Annie is a really good champ, but she's not OP.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Lissandra: -Ring of Frost has a 450 range -Frozen Tomb has a 550 range All three of Annie's damage spells have a range of 600 or 625

Malzahar's ult I'll give you, having a range of 700 and the same cooldown, as well as a longer duration that can't be reduced by tenacity. His is also exclusively single-target and requires he drop all of his spells on someone BEFORE he uses it, whereas Annie can stun potentially an entire team and then drop the rest of her combo while the enemy is stunned.

Also, I don't mind Annie being unique. I mind her stun being unavoidable through two different spells. I just want to see her stun (especially on her ulti Tibbers) require a little more skill or have a bit more counterplay, even if it meant buffs to compensate for the reduced reliability.

Tsugaga1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sky Drake Blazer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NzvlUzQz,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-31T09:05:31.823+0000)

Lissandra: -Ring of Frost has a 450 range -Frozen Tomb has a 550 range All three of Annie's damage spells have a range of 600 or 625

Malzahar's ult I'll give you, having a range of 700 and the same cooldown, as well as a longer duration that can't be reduced by tenacity. His is also exclusively single-target and requires he drop all of his spells on someone BEFORE he uses it, whereas Annie can stun potentially an entire team and then drop the rest of her combo while the enemy is stunned.

Also, I don't mind Annie being unique. I mind her stun being unavoidable through two different spells. I just want to see her stun (especially on her ulti Tibbers) require a little more skill or have a bit more counterplay, even if it meant buffs to compensate for the reduced reliability.

Yes Annie has a little bit farther range, that doesn't mean every champ in the game has to be equal. That's like saying every marksman should have the range of Trist/Cait/Kog. How about Nasus Q? Does every champ in the game need a Q with infinite stacking damage just because Nasus does? Only Annie's Q is unavoidable, her ult can miss or be dodged. Her stun does have counter play, it's not always available and requires her to charge it, and the charge is lost if she uses any damaging ability.

I've played 500+ Annie games and I know just how painful it is to lane against champs like Viktor, Cass, Azir, Orianna, and the overplayed Zed. The best way to learn the weaknesses of a champion is to play them a lot, and I know Annie has plenty.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

The game needs at least a few reliable point-and-click abilities. It's the most reliable way to keep mobility in check.

Push your lane, and she won't be able to save a stun for you -- she'll have to Q to last-hit minions under tower. Or grab a QSS or some MR. If you survive the initial burst, she's got nothing left, and you can easily turn on her and punish her. In teamfights, try to avoid bunching up in a group.

Annie is very strong against many of the assassins, but she's actually quite weak to many of the mages.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I don't mind reliability, I just want it to come at a real cost. I hate her Tibbers stun, because if she lands that and you're not a full-HP fighter or tank you might as well start looking at the shop, cause you're doomed.

Funnily enough the most recent game I played involving an Annie (with yours truly as a rather rusty Ziggs) I did end up pushing my lane and frequently escaping the enemy Kha'Zix. But even then I frequently didn't feel safe, and at times it felt like she was zoning me.

One thing I really don't agree with is the counterplay of a Champion being determined entirely by whether or not you can outrange them. There should be counterplay or a means to win based on skill no matter the range. I have the same problems with Darius, TBH.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Kayle is another champion who has the same problem -- if you're within range, she will whale on you to no end, but if you're out of range or mobile, she can't do a damn thing. It's a binary playstyle that isn't ideal.

Annie's whole thing is her burst though. You survive that, you can use that opportunity to hit her back. I personally don't like her mana refund on Q. Seems unnecessary given her very long auto-attack range, and it contributes to the feeling you just described -- that she has no real cost.

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

Just surviving Annie's burst isn't good enough though, you have to be able to quickly kill her. Her Q and E (her primary damage abilities) have a 4 second and 8 second cooldown respectively. At 20% CDR that's 3.2 and 6.4 seconds each. With Tibbers bearing down on you as well with his autos and DoT (With possibly Ignite as well), that's a VERY brief time in which you can react, assuming you manage to survive and have the majority of your kit available.

In all honesty, the biggest problem I have with her is Summon: Tibbers + Pyromania, which has the potential to instantly stun an entire team and allow Annie and her allies to completely decimate, all thanks to simply having your mouse in the right spot at the time of casting. What I'd like to see is some sort of delay before Tibbers is summoned so you can actually react beyond either trying to kill her before she can react or desperately stay out of her range. I would even fully agree with buffs as compensation to go in hand with reducing the reliability.

khorney1 votes

Honestly you could make het passive a 1 sec stun. AnD it wouldn't matter because of her flash tibbers or not flashing and tibbers .

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

I don't mind the stun itself. I mind that she has multiple ways of landing it virtually guaranteed, and enough follow-up burst to kill you before it's done.

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