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It's time to put a stop to the "anything can work" fantasies that are getting popular around here

Great Muta··8 votes·1,114 views

I'm seeing alot of "just pick _____ champ in _____ lane and through "positivity", you will win. The typical defenses for this are:

  1. Everyone is somehow so bad at League, except for you, that they will not be able to outplay the pick that isn't in optimal conditions

  2. Anything at anytime can work.

Here are the problems with this style of thinking and picking:

  1. Your teammates are doing what they can to help YOU succeed. By picking off meta and taking risky picks, you are basically dropping a hot turd on their faces and saying, "Hey, fuck you. I don't give a fuck that you want to help me win. I'm doing what I want."

  2. Anything can work, but many things have a less likely chance of working, especially on a consistent basis. One game's result is not a good study of how well (random champion) works in ____ lane. If that were the case, my 100% Vi winrate this season would put me in the League Hall of Fame, despite me playing 2 games with her. Riot analyzes results from millions of games and still can't figure out at times which puzzle fits in the best space.

  3. Picking off-meta and picking champs in different lanes is a RISK. By making these risky picks, you are gambling your own LP and your teammates, and believe me, not all of your teammates are looking to gamble. Your fuck around game can easily be someone's promo game or their demotion game. It might not mean shit to you to blow a game, but League is a 40+ min investment for the most part, and your fuck around game may be someone's only game for the day or the game they get reported on for chewing you out for risking their LP.

  4. To pick a champ off meta, you need to justify it by somehow doing better with that champ in the wrong role than in the desired role. This is not easy and a 5/5/5 Garen support is not the same as a 5/5/5 Garen top. If you are picking off meta, and not doing significantly better or contributing significantly more, it is a wasted pick.

  5. If you are really so good that you can just pick anything and make it work 100% of the time, you are either 1) smurfing or 2) lying. No one on here is the 0.0001%. Those people are playing in pro-games. And if in some fantasy world you are this good, you are legitimately wasting your time by playing bullshit instead of making money off of your skills.

  6. Most of the time, your favorite streamer is going to be a lot higher ranked than you. He's probably not going to reveal all the circumstances of his off-meta pick game like playing with other higher ELO friends, playing against lower ranked players or other things that would make the game easier. Higher ranked players tend to have a better knowledge of the game, mostly because they learn from their mistakes better and just straight up have more experience. The best people to learn off-meta picks from are people who have played hundreds of games with an off-meta pick and have consistent success.

That's all. Thanks.

48 Comments

oSEXYPLATYPUSo7 votes

or how bout treat the game as a fuckin game and enjoy it. you dont know what works and dont work til you try it.

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nzh6zUOk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-09-21T03:59:09.271+0000)

or how bout treat the game as a fuckin game and enjoy it. you dont know what works and dont work til you try it.

I will agree with and stand up for this argument when it comes to normals. Ranked is a different story entirely. You bring your best or you bring nothing at all. If you're not there to try your hardest, you have no reason to be there

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

at the end of it all its still a game

Great Muta1 votes

For you, it may be. Everyone has a different motive. This is not just a game for a lot of people. It's an addiction, it's a way to make money, it's a time waster, it's a way to prove something, it's an investment and it's a dream.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

still a game... and those who dream to be the next faker etc well it takes more then just a dream... hell at one point i wanted to be a pro football player and i was actually decently talented. but in highschool i was 5'8 and 190 lbs playing inside line backer. didnt matter i benched 420lbs and squat 575lbs and ran a 4.72 40 i just wasnt talented enough nor big enough to play in division 1 major college no matter what i did i wasnt gonna be 6'3 250 dont mean i cant enjoy the game and play the game for fun. i did play semi pro rugby though.

Great Muta1 votes

still a game

To you. It's an addiction, a form of expression and a competition for me.

and those who dream to be the next faker etc well it takes more then just a dream

Sure does and I'm pretty sure Soraka Jungle is not the missing component.

i just wasnt talented enough nor big enough to play in division 1 major college no matter what i did

The great thing about League is that physical appearances don't matter and anyone with good learning abilities and skill can advance.

dont mean i cant enjoy the game and play the game for fun

You can play fun modes where your fun will not interrupt other people's serious play

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

no you dont understand the players who are pros are seriously talented. its more then learning the game

Great Muta1 votes

Some pro's might be a little bit better in some areas, but it mostly just comes down to practice, studying and learning from one's mistakes.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

you are sadly mistake if you think its practice and studying we are talking about the best .001 % of players

Great Muta1 votes

Whatever man. You are really just here to disagree with everything any way.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

I disagree with you base on facts

Jbels2 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nzh6zUOk,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T04:05:17.233+0000)

at the end of it all its still a game

Not for everyone. Some players have ambitions to get into LCS one day, and that game they play becomes more of a job. If there was no competitive scene and no reason to climb, it wouldn't make a difference to me, but as it stands, getting into LCS is hard enough without players being inconsiderate with their picks

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

the % of people who make LCS are like .001%

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

let alone the career of a pro lcs player is age 16-22ish so maybe 6 yrs if they are really good.

Great Muta1 votes

Some people play for fun, others play to advance. If your "fuck around game" comes at the expense of someone's promo game, you are being the toxic one.

Some off meta picks may work in controlled situations and situations with small sample sizes, but to get to the point where you can see if it really works or not, you have to put a ton of games into it and compare it to scores with on meta picks.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

so hmm ap mage supports ... for example werent consider meta before but now they are... someone had to try that outside of the meta to see if it worked. trundle support another example.

maokai top when before he became the tank supreme top laner he was a jungler that was never really played

vald mid, swain top

graves jungle

urgot mid

varus mid

ap ez mid

how many examples must i make?

Great Muta1 votes

Riot doesn't always get things right, but chances are, your random Kassadin Bronze V Jungler isn't the meta breaker here.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

ive seen kassadin jungle work and i seen it fail

i have also jungled teemo and done very well with it.

i have top laned nunu and win with it.

Great Muta1 votes

Great. Let me know when you hit LCS and you can make an off-meta pick a meta pick.

We are looking for 1) consistency and 2) major progress.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

i have no desire to be a pro gamer. i play the game for fun. and even at the pro level ITS STILL JUST A GAME

Great Muta1 votes

Again, for you it is a game. For other people it is much more.

Consistent win ratios and advancing into higher leagues consistently are the best ways to show that (off meta pick) works in ____ lane.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but no one knew what champs to go in what lane etc what was meta when the game started ... it was created by trying shit and figuring shit out. for you not to know that just shows how empty your argument is

Great Muta1 votes

And consistent amounts of success through mass amounts of games proved what worked and what didn't, which is the point I'm making.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but no one knew what worked til it was tried to bitch about people trying things is stupid. i gave over 10 examples of doing just that , people trying stuff

Great Muta1 votes

No one knew smoking was bad for you either when cigarettes became popular. Studies and consistent results proved it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

so you are gonna argue that all the off meta examples i made were people trolling etc when they are all consider meta now? and refuse to accept the way they were all figured out was by trying stuff

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

how do you know what items to build on what champs, what skills to order in what progression what team comps work vs other team comps. how match ups play out etc? how do you know any of that? did riot sit down and create a guide to what champ goes where vs who and with what items and how to build them? NNNNNNOOOOOOOO they create concepts and ideas throw it to the players and let the players figure it out. how do they figure it out? by trying stuff , theory crafting. etc.

another example would be

rumble jungle. before it was seen as a troll pick and was off meta... but now you see it regularly in pro play.

gragas jungle is another example use to be an mid ap mage champ in pro play.

tahm kench top/jungle another example when he was created as a tank/support

riven mid when she is consider a top laner.

pantheon mid

j4 mid /top and support when he is consider a jungler

darius jungle

tf jungle/ adc

kogmaw jungle of late

Great Muta1 votes

You already know my answer as to how we know all of this.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

it was all unknown and tried before that is how the discover things.

how did they discover it if it was people just trying shit to see if it worked ?

Great Muta1 votes

it was all unknown and tried before that is how the discover things.

It wasn't a Bronze player who found the magic treasure chest.

how did they discover it if it was people just trying shit to see if it worked ?

Same answer as I've been giving you. Large sample sizes of games and consistently high winrates.

Revali1 votes

Aquadragon33 is a guy you should look into for you wanting consistency and major progress of off meta.

OneMustFall1 votes

{quoted}

Aquadragon33 is a guy you should look into for you wanting consistency and major progress of off meta.

AD Jungle Malz...Damn, can't get much more off-meta than that.

Revali2 votes

he also does Tank karthus, bot azir, support orianna, etc. fan of his stream. as it demonstrates that it can all work, as long as you properly practice it, just like anything else.

and I find it really cool.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but just as you say you need to let go of the fantasy .... and just enjoy the game

OneMustFall6 votes

That's some dumb logic pretty typical of meta-whoring. Just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it won't work. Brand support wasn't a thing before people tried it out and said hey this works well. People do off-meta stuff all the time and carry themselves into Masters with it. The problem is team's thinking their opinion of what works is more important than the guy who has played that champ in the role before and done well in it.

You thinking somehow you have to do better in the off-meta role than it's normal role to justify playing it is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. If it works, it works. I don't have to 1v5 carry with it to prove anything to people who don't understand it.

Great Muta1 votes

Just because something isn't popular doesn't mean it won't work

I never said it might not work. I said it's unlikely to work consistently through large amounts of games and I also have mentioned that sometimes there are unexpected situations.

People do off-meta stuff all the time and carry themselves into Masters with it.

How many of these people were already Masters level players?

The problem is team's thinking their opinion of what works is more important than the guy who has played that champ in the role before and done well in it.

The team generally wants to win. And the best way to win is to pick champs that fit well in roles, work with each other and work well against enemy champions. Going against that is basically doing the exact opposite of what people are trying to do.

You thinking somehow you have to do better in the off-meta role than it's normal role to justify playing it is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

If you are going 5-5-5 as Garen Top and 5-5-5 as Garen Support, you are getting the same score and accomplishing a lot less. You would lose nothing by going back to Top.

If it works, it works.

But does it work consistently through 100+ games? And does it work so much better than the same pick in the intended position?

OneMustFall3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nzh6zUOk,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-09-21T04:14:44.082+0000)

I never said it might not work. I said it's unlikely to work consistently through large amounts of games and I also have mentioned that sometimes there are unexpected situations.

How many of these people were already Masters level players?

The team generally wants to win. And the best way to win is to pick champs that fit well in roles, work with each other and work well against enemy champions. Going against that is basically doing the exact opposite of what people are trying to do.

If you are going 5-5-5 as Garen Top and 5-5-5 as Garen Support, you are getting the same score and accomplishing a lot less. You would lose nothing by going back to Top.

But does it work consistently through 100+ games? And does it work so much better than the same pick in the intended position?

So your argument about people who climbed from Bronze-Masters with off-meta picks is "Hurr durr, they were Masters already"? First off, unless they state they were smurfing and normally played something else to get to Masters is a poor assumption on your part. Second, that just proves the point that it isn't about the champ/role you pick but about your skill level.

It's funny how silly these arguments are. I played a game last night as Teemo JG (My main) with a Shaco mid. Guess who the two champs were that carried the game? Not the feeding bot lane and Top was marginal for most of the game. Yet they were playing the meta champs.

And obviously if you're getting to Masters with an off-meta champ, you're playing 100s of games and having success. Whether it works better/same as it's "intended" position is irrelevant if you're the one carrying the game with it. The only thing that matters is "Does it work better for you?". If you're better as Shaco mid than you are as Shaco Jg, then you should be playing him mid. I want people playing their best champs/roles in Ranked, not what the meta says they should play when they suck at it.

Great Muta1 votes

So your argument about people who climbed from Bronze-Masters with off-meta picks is "Hurr durr, they were Masters already"?

I'd like to know about some of the people who were Bronze level players and managed to climb all the way to Masters, solely on their off meta pick since Season 4. We aren't talking about streamers or youtubers here who have made it there already. We are talking about people who found some secret OP pick and climbed all the way up with that pick, despite beforehand being a Bronze level player. NA players please.

Second, that just proves the point that it isn't about the champ/role you pick but about your skill level.

I don't think I've ever said it wasn't about skill level, but even the best players are going to have a hard time consistently getting good results and climbing off meta.

I played a game last night as Teemo JG (My main) with a Shaco mid. Guess who the two champs were that carried the game?

Please reread what I've wrote. We aren't looking for one-offs. We are looking for 100+ games with strong winrates who climbed with off meta picks. This is a good sample size to go with. 1 game is not a good sample size.

And obviously if you're getting to Masters with an off-meta champ, you're playing 100s of games and having success.

Again, we are looking for players who were a much lower rank and were able to get to much higher divisions off of that pick. Not players who smurfed or already hit ___ rank and got back.

The only thing that matters is "Does it work better for you?"

And the only way to determine it is again, through 100+ games with strong winrates showing that it does indeed work over a long period of time.

OneMustFall1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nzh6zUOk,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T12:14:18.852+0000)

I'd like to know about some of the people who were Bronze level players and managed to climb all the way to Masters, solely on their off meta pick since Season 4. We aren't talking about streamers or youtubers here who have made it there already. We are talking about people who found some secret OP pick and climbed all the way up with that pick, despite beforehand being a Bronze level player. NA players please.

I don't think I've ever said it wasn't about skill level, but even the best players are going to have a hard time consistently getting good results and climbing off meta.

Please reread what I've wrote. We aren't looking for one-offs. We are looking for 100+ games with strong winrates who climbed with off meta picks. This is a good sample size to go with. 1 game is not a good sample size.

Again, we are looking for players who were a much lower rank and were able to get to much higher divisions off of that pick. Not players who smurfed or already hit ___ rank and got back.

And the only way to determine it is again, through 100+ games with strong winrates showing that it does indeed work over a long period of time.

Just the example off the tip of my head...

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=HIKASHIKUN

Plat 2 to Masters from S4 to S6 in terms of finishes.

Me personally I have my highest win rate and have won/carried more games playing an off-meta pick. Your argument doesn't hold any weight, if you can win/climb to high elo playing an off-meta pick and then continue to hold a 65% win rate in that elo, then the off-meta pick works. How they originally got there doesn't bear any relevance.

You can find countless examples of people playing off-meta stuff with high win rates in every elo on your own. Just the fact there are Urgot one-tricks who play every lane should lead you to that conclusion.

Great Muta1 votes

Just the example off the tip of my head...http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=HIKASHIKUN Plat 2 to Masters from S4 to S6 in terms of finishes.

He's advanced a little on an off-meta pick. Not a bad example, but he is also running non-Jungle Teemo too. And Plat 2 to Masters is a lot different from Bronze to Masters, which is what you told me is being done so often by so many people. The skill is there if he's already in Plat.

Me personally I have my highest win rate and have won/carried more games playing an off-meta pick.

You don't even have a 55%+ winrate on any champion, in Bronze 1. You are doing a little better than Average when picking Teemo is various roles and below average in all matches at 48% winrate.

You can find countless examples of people playing off-meta stuff with high win rates in every elo on your own.

Would love to see some more. Still waiting for that Bronze > Masters you told me about.

OneMustFall2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nzh6zUOk,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T14:44:13.590+0000)

He's advanced a little on an off-meta pick. Not a bad example, but he is also running non-Jungle Teemo too. And Plat 2 to Masters is a lot different from Bronze to Masters, which is what you told me is being done so often by so many people. The skill is there if he's already in Plat.

You don't even have a 55%+ winrate on any champion, in Bronze 1. You are doing a little better than Average when picking Teemo is various roles and below average in all matches at 48% winrate.

Would love to see some more. Still waiting for that Bronze > Masters you told me about.

When I say Bronze-Masters I'm talking about people who make new accounts and climb from Unranked to Masters playing primarily that off-meta pick as the example I posted did three times. I have no clue of what rank he was when he first started playing the game but I assume he was low elo just like everybody else.

At this point I think you're just arguing to argue. It doesn't look like you play Ranked anymore (Don't want to drop from Silver before end of season I'm guessing) so I don't know what your stake even is in this. People in low elos somehow think if they play the meta, things will go better. It's an flawed ideology and one that is lost the higher you climb the ladder because so many people get to higher elos playing one champ in multiple positions. But if you want to continue to complain to deaf ears, go for it man. I'm gonna keep on playing what I enjoy playing and do well on.

Emojay2 votes

But BRO-fes-coh says jungle Taliah is the most O-pee thing ever [slayer-jinx-catface] (I hate brofesco's click bait.)

XLC2 votes

I hate Brofresco's content.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

that ill agree with

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Its ok, you can be anything you want. Proof, this guy wanted to be an ahole and he is living his dream.

Remnar1 votes

I didn't read, but up-voted anyways, purely because we have the same Summoner Icon. GG

Emojay1 votes

I think people like u act waaaay too mean to off meta picks.it isn't super cool to dodge my lulu jungle, just cuz it's not super meta, because how do YOU know it won't work, HUH..!.mBdkdgfka

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

But what if....

It's normals?

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