I feel if you lose bot lane right now, you lose the game

Great Muta·Sep 28, 2016·106 votes·6,389 views

The scaling and snowballing are out of control and it seems impossible at this point to win the game unless you win bot lane. Anyone else seeing this?

147 Comments

RebonackSep 28, 201665 votes

Last I checked, the team that scores the first tower takedown has over a 70% chance of winning the game due to the large gold influx (not to mention the usual map control gained from taking towers).

Maybe Riot should just make the enemy Nexus instantly explode if you take the first tower? Seems like it would save everyone a lot of time.

Great MutaSep 28, 201647 votes

I'd like to see:

15 min surrender votes
Options to get out when there is an AFK/DC. Dota does this already as does CSGO.
Better matchmaking. I had a 64% winrate on one account and got paired with 9% and 13% winraters. Not fair.

Mojihito666Sep 28, 20164 votes

Better matchmaking. I had a 64% winrate on one account and got paired with 9% and 13% winraters. Not fair.

Thats why i stopped playing.

RebonackSep 28, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZLwb5oaV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-09-28T17:39:00.860+0000)

I'd like to see:

15 min surrender votes

Options to get out when there is an AFK/DC. Dota does this already as does CSGO.

Better matchmaking. I had a 64% winrate on one account and got paired with 9% and 13% winraters. Not fair.

I would prefer less snowballing, personally.

Rift needs some degree of snowballing due to how the map is designed, though. Otherwise it would tend toward stalemate. To make snowballing a non-issue, the objectives of the map would have to be completely re-made.

Or, y'know, Riot could let us play Dominion again. It didn't have any issues with snowballing. Is it really too much to ask to have a game mode where you win by consistently playing better than the enemy team? Because I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find the 'don't have a mouth-breather on your team who feeds three kills by 15 minutes and loses their tower' win condition being the primary deciding factor in success or failure terribly fun.

ScumbagZedSep 28, 20169 votes

There is an option to get out of the game when someone afks or dc's, you can vote to "surrender" if your team has an afk/dc at around 2-3 minutes in, and the game ends with nobody gaining/losing ip or lp.

Great MutaSep 28, 201625 votes

That's remake and it hardly ever works. You have to dc before the game starts to make it available and stay dc'd.

rtbf76109271Sep 28, 20167 votes

Ya I REALLY want to be able to surrender 5 minutes earlier for each afk on your team. In norms it's just not worth the effort of trying to win and I want to just start a new game with a full team

TheSingularitySep 29, 20164 votes

This^^^^ I hate to be the party pooper on those who "NEVA SURRENDER!" Because admittedly I respect that mindset and its resilience but in norms, there comes a point where it's simply stupid. If we're 20 kills down, someone's running it down mid or we have an afk (maybe 2)....

I'm gonna enter "idgaf" mode because it simply ain't fun to be in such a hopeless situation (which is even worse for utility champ mains who lack carry potential). Even if we win, it doesnt feel like an achievement to drag out for 50 minutes power farming and relying on your team to carry or the enemy to throw (especially when all they want is that S or a pretty kda)

Instead it's an overwhelming feeling of freedom and relief from a boring grind (which when paired tiny ip gains=nothing special) Would've been both a more efficient use of time and more enjoyable for the 3 yes voters to have ended it at 20. Because we could've started and finished a more enjoyable game in the time it took the enemy to throw.

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20165 votes

Better matchmaking. I had a 64% winrate on one account and got paired with 9% and 13% winraters. Not fair.

Ok, either you are a smurf (in which case you are ruining the game for everyone else, please stop) or you're not understanding the meaning of the word "fair". You think that just because you are getting matched with low win rate players means the system is unfair? Are you fucking kidding me? So what, should you only be matched with players on a hot streak with 60%+ win ratio to ensure that you never lose a ranked game ever again? Matchmaking is designed to be random. You get matched with 4 other people at you approx mmr. Stop whining about unfair matchmaking. The only unfairness in "matchmaking" at present are the issues associated with DQ, but this isn't really a matchmaking issue in and of itself.

Great MutaSep 29, 20162 votes

At one point last year, I was literally playing 5 point MMR games. Yes, FIVE. I switched between B5>B4 about 8 times last year but my MMR was so far down in the crapper that I'd always lose 20 and gain 10 and when I would dodge, I'd go one step closer to demotion. After 2 games lost at 0 LP, I'd get demoted.

This season, I started doing DQ and it was a success. I ended up finding people for almost every role and for about 1 month, we had a really good DQ team that won about 80% of it's matches. We had no trolls, no AFK's and skype. We coordinated picks, played as a team and were a huge success. But the second I hit Silver, and I was the first one and only one to do so in our group, the group imploded. Our top became a 30% winrate ADC. Our Mid blamed Yasuo/Viktor nerfs and is now a Jungle. Our Support went MIA and everyone started to pick "fun picks" over "smart picks". It turns out a Yasuo/Sejuani/Illaoi comp is a lot more efficient than an Olaf/Yi/Ashe comp.

You would think, being at 70% winrate at times would rank me up quick, right? Nope. My MMR was still in the crapper. My Season 6 final record was something like 70-40ish, at around 62% winrate and it still took me near 100 games to go from Bronze 5 to Silver 5. Think about it. Streamers can do unranked to Diamond in 100 games. Due to my tanked MMR, it took me 100 games just to jump 5 levels.

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20162 votes

So you're boosted. K thx.

Great MutaSep 29, 20161 votes

I boosted myself. Don't be jelly.

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20162 votes

If you went from bronze 5 to silver in the manner you are admitting to, then you are boosted. You all but admitted that you wouldn't have been able to climb on your own, hence, boosting.

Edit: also, I'm plat. I'm anti-jealous of your rank.

Great MutaSep 29, 20161 votes

Boosted players don't maintain high KDA's on multiple champions and also don't win Solo Q games. Approximately 40%+ of my games to get to silver were Solo.

And yeah, I think you are. You know you can't win like that.

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20161 votes

omfg you are hardcore dumb. If you play with a premade, you will ALWAYS do better. Superior coordination allows you to have better kda, and basically just better stats across the board. And 40% is nothing. I probably played close to 95% or more of my games solo, and the VAST majority of the premade games were duo only. THAT is the only measure of true individual skill in this game. There is a reason why DQ has been removed at diamond and up, but riot fails to see that their fuck up is one of principle and not just in the implementation.

Great MutaSep 30, 20161 votes

Well, I just hit my highest ever non-placement solo only ranking tonight and I'm only 3 rankings away from my DQ rank. Looking pretty good here.

Solo Q is dead. Gone, until you are diamond or whatever. Does not matter.

MonkeyMadnessSep 30, 20161 votes

Solo Q is dead. Gone, until you are diamond or whatever. Does not matter.

DQ will bring about the end of this game. And SoloQ does matter. If you reach a rank solo, it is MUCH more telling of your skill.

Great MutaSep 30, 20161 votes

LOL has 100 million players according to a recent report. It's pretty safe for a few years.

I'm more of a fan of solo Q myself, but it is what it is.

MonkeyMadnessOct 2, 20161 votes

Do you want to know what happens when the pro players lead an exodus from a game? It dies. End of story. Riot has done a lot of work to keep pros, but that is making the rest of the competitive community rather disillusioned with Riot's motives.

Amasa DelanoSep 28, 20169 votes

Naah, just make the enemy Nexus have a 70% chance of exploding after you take the first tower. Otherwise, your Nexus will explode.

RisèeeeSep 29, 20162 votes

You are unranked with like 1000 bot games were are you getting these made up stats?

RebonackSep 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Team Mystic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZLwb5oaV,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2016-09-29T01:05:45.643+0000)

You are unranked with like 1000 bot games were are you getting these made up stats?

Sauce.

AMYS GRAVESep 29, 20161 votes

and the auto pushing minions due to having more towers taken.

RebonackSep 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

and the auto pushing minions due to having more towers taken.

The new minions had a much bigger impact on snowballing than the tower FB, but y'know what they say. Every little bit counts.

EndlessSorcererSep 28, 201621 votes

Bottom lane tends to snowball really, really hard since it has two players on each team.

Once one pair gets ahead, they can keep feeding off their opponents (especially since the enemy ADC can't really build defensively) and ganking them becomes a risky proposition.

This is especially true since a winning bottom lane provides massive control over Dragons.

Critmaster GarenSep 28, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Bottom lane tends to snowball really, really hard since it has two players on each team.

Once one pair gets ahead, they can keep feeding off their opponents (especially since the enemy ADC can't really build defensively) and ganking them becomes a risky proposition.

This is especially true since a winning bottom lane provides massive control over Dragons.

well, and then there is the fact that they removed the fortification bonus from the bot lane turret and added 400 gold bounty for turret fb.

if the enemy bot lane happens to get first blood and the turret off it, its 800 gold.

TotalJerkSep 28, 20162 votes

Yep. Bot has historically always been the most important lane in the game.

Jet SettSep 28, 201611 votes

Bot lane? Are you referring to

http://www.blacksburgbelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/VeggieSandwich2-620x411.jpg

Velzard of KozSep 28, 20166 votes

Well heck me that looks really tasty

Praetor NotoriasSep 29, 20163 votes

Fair warning: It's salty.

RivuoSep 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Bot lane? Are you referring to

http://www.blacksburgbelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/VeggieSandwich2-620x411.jpg

?

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

Ace Access Sep 29, 20162 votes

KogMaw ME HUNGRY!!

LeBronze GamesSep 28, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZLwb5oaV,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-28T17:29:54.796+0000)

The scaling and snowballing are out of control and it seems impossible at this point to win the game unless you win bot lane. Anyone else seeing this?

I remember vividly Aphromoo on one of his streams earlier this year saying "really it's whoever makes it to bot lane first that wins nowadays" and I've found this to be true. Whoever gangbangs bot first generally takes control of the game, which feels super shitty as a bot laner because you basically have no control over it either way.

EedatSep 28, 20167 votes

I disagree but I also main Wukong who deletes even the most fed of ADCs with ease

VelgamSep 28, 20167 votes

When bot lane loses it becomes 3 v 5, that's the issue, you have an underfed adc and a supp who is even further behind.

YaskamasandwichSep 28, 20166 votes

I've always felt this case since season 3. Season 2 had the bruisers running the show so Riot switched it to Marksman. Since the entire game revoles around marksman it only makes sense that the winning one determines the game.

Even when Riot nerfs tp more and more it will never stop 5 man ganks on bot lane. Bot lane is too important more so than ever with a big list of why.

It's the lane with the primary role being marksman that has a huge impact in determining the game.
Strategy to tilt the enemy marksman for a basic auto win.
A support which can result a double kill.
A dragon kill and complete control of dragon.
AND now a weakened tower for first tower kill.

Right now there is no reason to just gang up on bot lane. Ironic that the rift herald tried to bring attention up top lane and failed.

SlythionSep 28, 20163 votes

The best part is that Rift Herald is only really taken in 3 scenarios:

When bot lane has already snowballed so the jungler (or bot lane if they are roaming) can turn their attention to the upper half of the map
When Top lane has snowballed wayyy out of control so it's basically a free Herald buff to ensure that he comes out even more ahead (only when your jungler is top side of course)
An AA-reliant Jungler (Aatrox, Yi, Trynd) is fed with some sustain and has a completed BloodRazor so they can just solo it and either a) take it for themselves b) give it to top/mid

CorruptedScytheSep 28, 20164 votes

nb4 Diana/Akali/Zed/Assassins in general

HigeSep 28, 20163 votes

O.o try loosing top lane to a jax...

Sahn UzalSep 28, 20163 votes

O.o try loosing top lane

Ftfy

TotalJerkSep 28, 20162 votes

I think you mean even allowing a Jax to hit his item spikes in the first place.

Awesomedude8888Sep 28, 20163 votes

And the sad thing is that botlaners actually do not win botlane; the rest of their team wins botlane for them. (in the form of a 4v2 or 5v2)

dunkeroniSep 29, 20161 votes

Nope. Just last night my friend and I went a combined 0/8/1 in the bot lane and we still won pretty easily late game. It may have been because we kept feeding a soraka adc so we could get shutdown gold for the team, but that shouldn't effect the statistics at all xD

Great MutaSep 29, 20161 votes

Anecdotal evidence is crap.

dunkeroniSep 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZLwb5oaV,comment-id=00310000,timestamp=2016-09-29T14:18:10.046+0000)

Anecdotal evidence is crap.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but it's pretty well established that a single counter-example can break any proof.

On an unrelated note, I apologize for trying to reply to the steaming pile of shit that is your dumbass topic. Clearly I should have noticed that you were just throwing out some swill about the lane you just lost in a game, and that you didn't want anyone's intelligent opinions. My bad. You can continue spreading your shit all over the boards if you want. I'll stop pulling you back to reality.

Milodic MellodiSep 29, 20161 votes

You're trying to compare fact to scientific theory. They may try to be the same thing, but they're not at all. A theory is a theory, whether it has a little evidence to back its claims or not. One game of yours (and some other games with your circumstance) versus countless games where the exact opposite happens doesn't just win an argument. They're called ADCs for a reason. Attack Damage Carry. Carry, as in the one that does enough damage and/or has enough utility (or other such things) to snowball their kills and help the team take objectives -- pretty much "carrying" them on their back, enough so that if the team lost them they'd end up losing because of the lack of firepower that they need. Marksmen and Assassins are made to deal large amounts of combined damage (at-once or continuous), so its stands to show that because of their damage potential they'll get a lot of kills. Add that to the fact that most Marksmen and Assassins can burst down a tower (especially Tristana) while other lanes tend to have champions that don't do so well against towers, and the evidence seems to be against you here.

dunkeroniSep 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Milodic Mellodi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZLwb5oaV,comment-id=0031000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-29T16:23:36.287+0000)

You're trying to compare fact to scientific theory. They may try to be the same thing, but they're not at all. A theory is a theory, whether it has a little evidence to back its claims or not. One game of yours (and some other games with your circumstance) versus countless games where the exact opposite happens doesn't just win an argument.

When the argument is a generalization such as saying the game is "impossible at this point to win the game unless you win bot lane", then a counter-example proves that the argument is false.

Of course if someone is playing adc and loses lane, and continues to fight aggressively attempting to carry the rest of the game, that player will usually have a bad time. However, I'm sure we can all understand why such a playstyle is the fault of the player, not the game's design.

Milodic MellodiSep 30, 20161 votes

"impossible at this point to win the game unless you win bot lane"

You forgot "seems". That one word makes a lot of difference. Something that "seems impossible" is not outright impossible. Editing out key words in the hope we don't read it is kind of cheap, imho.

dunkeroniSep 30, 20162 votes

You are entirely correct. The OP was stating that it "seems impossible," yet since I was showing him that it was not nearly as impossible as it seems by use of my most recent in-game history, I believe my point stands quite solidly.

I apologize for the omission. I assumed that you had enough intelligence to understand that since the OP was a subjective point, it could most easily be refuted by equally subjective counterexamples. I will not make the same mistake again. Good day to you :)