Seeing the suggestions for gameplay balance with ADCs vs Tanks vs Assassins vs Supports

Elohaven··25 votes·1,039 views

Has made me see a lot of suggestions I disagree with that have actually been simply upvoted just because people want a class gutted. What you don't realize is that if a class is gutted, you're going to nerf your own class in the long run since they'll be too OP? I hope that's recognized.

Nobody likes unkillable tanks with lots of HP. That's why LDR exists so stacking HP won't just help you and games can close out faster. Yet some people believe it's the most broken item in the game. (Truthfully, duskblade is IMO with is passives, damage, vision control, price, and class scope)

ADCs still build LDR and people pretend toplane is literally useless or has no impact with midlane when that's completely wrong. The highest winrates are in top/midlane. ADCs aren't the most broken class though they may be the most annoying.

Riot already has plans to increase botlane diversity from ranged champions.

Most people say every ADC can 1v1 them but truthfully - an Assassin with their mobility/entire kit can destroy them. (Here comes the argument where people say ADCs stick to their team but that's not the point. The point are posts introducing the "1v1 scenario" and not realizing it's a horrible thing to introduce and doesn't make sense since ADCs actually can't 1v1 assassins right now unless fed.)

Most posts I see with ADCs have involved a game where not a single armor item is built other than tabis which isn't truly an armor item since it mitigates such a small amount of damage. People wonder why they are bursted by ADCs who build full damage. ADCs burst other ADCs - why should they have slapstick fights and just deal steady damage.

Tanks aren't OP against ADCs. The "insane damage" they do is because ADCs build no resistances and get caught by them. The issue is that tanks have %HP damage that should be used against bruisers and not assassins/ADCs. There's no threshold for activation or condition requirements.

CDR is more of an issue than critical strike. Assassins feel like ADCs are untouchable - but that's their mains. ADCs and supports feel they are super mobile and toplaners find them annoying to peel or don't want to deal with it. The reason ADCs are hard to get is first:

  • You're going 1v3 trying to skill a squishy, expect a hard time
  • Peel exists with shields, heals, and CC
  • CDR has made cases of infinite CC

Assassins aren't weak. They do a lot of damage. Supports just have a much stronger impact now.

Toplaners still burst squishies and can pick them off. They can also teleport botlane.

People say "the better botlane" wins but every instance of the "better botlane" involves a third party like a jungler, midlaner, or toplaner giving that lane an advantage if they're behind or not. Often that help allows their lane to come back - so it's not the better botlane. There's evidence other lanes have impact.

There's so many things people want nerfs to but don't realize gutting any class is horrible. What we need is a game-wide change of damage decreases across the board and number tuning for different champions/classes.

28 Comments

xToxicOsirisx8 votes

People say "the better botlane" wins but every instance of the "better botlane" involves a third party like a jungler, midlaner, or toplaner giving that lane an advantage if they're behind or not. Often that help allows their lane to come back - so it's not the better botlane. There's evidence other lanes have impact.

This right here. It's not the better bot lane. It's the bot lane that had more attention from other lanes.

Handin Out Naps7 votes

Idk why people say assassins cant 1v1 adcs. That has never been a problem the problem is just that supports make it impossible to do anything as an assassin these days. The problem is that there is so much counterplay to assassins but there is literally 0 counterplay to shields and supports. There needs to be some sort of way to outplay or assassins will just always be terrible and feel like shit.

Hibeki5 votes

they honestly cant. A zed with 2 items vs a shiv IE adc will lose to trist even if he lands everything

Handin Out Naps3 votes

That's just not true lol I've mained Zed since s4 and had to stop recently because of stopwatch. But Zed can definitely 1 shot a 2 item trist with just w - e - q - duskblade + passive auto ignite, problem with this combo is they need to walk into you in an unwarded bush to land it, but you can still straight up ult - duskblade auto - e - q to kill a 2 item adc as well. The problem is adc's are never alone and supports literally have almost 0 counterplay.

LUXANNA HOSHIDO1 votes

You have to consider a lot of variables to support your narrative. Assassins are designed to be a difficult class because you need to be able to dispatch a high-priority target without getting killed.

Furthermore, they have the tools to get ahead early and it's difficult to deal with an assassin that's ridiculously fed because of how they snowball and items like Duskblade being how they are.

Counter play to shield supports is just shutting them down early, be it with roams or just starving them from resources because these champs are even squishier than these ADCs (excluding Taric.) You can also just eliminate them before a fight by using Duskblade or Oracle to scout out wards beforehand.

As for anything else you can just bait out cooldowns.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

Assassins dont have the tools to snowball anymore. Stopwatch has almost completely removed that. Take Zed for example you get bullied by most meta mid laners pre 6, the second they hit 6 they have stopwatch to completely block ur ultimate. You try to roam both bot laners have stopwatch and you cant ultimate. You try to kill their jungler he has a stopwatch. You go mid waste your ultimate manage to blow stopwatch, next ulti they have barrier/exh, next ultimate they have zhonyas. All of these failed kills tick the small timer you have left to be able to create a lead. And no you wont kill a lulu before she point and click instant shield and ultimates. The game is just so anti assassin right now its ridiculous.

Elohaven1 votes

Patch 8.3 is nerfing stopwatch. I think the way they nerfed it is bad and they should have made it a Tier 1 rune but w/e. We'll see. I think Lulu is a special case - but let's see where stopwatch is this patch.

vgamedude6 votes

Why do people continue to do this and not understand one simple thing?

ADC winrates are only comparable in so far as to OTHER ADCs. They are in EVERY game and are required, you cannot take an ADC winrate and compare it to other classes, the only thing ADC winrates tell you is how the champion fares against OTHER ADCs.

I can't believe anyone downvoted this, it's just a simple fact.

Elohaven2 votes

When you're comparing classes to other classes in other posts, then you're opening the discussion. If you want to compare ADC winrates only to ADCs, then you can't state midlane/toplane/support/etc. are impacted by ADCs then which makes no sense since there are clear confounding variables within these winrates.

vgamedude3 votes

{quoted}

When you're comparing classes to other classes in other posts, then you're opening the discussion. If you want to compare ADC winrates only to ADCs, then you can't state midlane/toplane/support/etc. are impacted by ADCs then which makes no sense since there are clear confounding variables within these winrates.

How are lanes not impacted by adcs when they're in the same game? All I'm saying is since you have adcs in every game their winrate means nothing besides how they compare to other ADCs. Every other lane has different classes who can fill a particular role.

Elohaven1 votes

I never said lanes aren't impacted by ADCs.

Anyways, you're post is right - the winrates are comparing lane matchups rather than classes and etc.

3411235456526 votes

An ADC apologist at its finest. Your top played champions are vayne tristana twitch and jinx. People like you ruin the game with your selfish opinions/conflict of interests, you dont give a shit about the balance lol. You wouldnt last 2 seconds playing a mid laner or draven. But I guess out of the 10 anti adc threads, there needs to be 1 where the delusional adc mains can circlejerk themselves.

And dont comment on things you clearly dont understand such as the ADC vs Assasins 1v1. OH HURR DURR THEY TOTALLY CAN 1v1 ADCS, no its not that simple, it depends which assassin it is and which adc it is and how far in the game are we, alot of variables. When AD ASSASSINS hit their duskblade 1 item powerspike , yes they can easily 1v1 adcs. Fast forward into 30mins+ and the adc who probably played awful and got caught alot can now easily 1v1 the assasins especially if its a vayne kog trist etc

WardBaronFFS1 votes

I was playing kog maw 2-8 and I 1 vs 1ed the 15-5 assassin face tanking. EZ

Elohaven2 votes

Realize I said the 1v1 scenario is bad to even mention?

As you said - there's a lot of variables and League is a team game.

It seems you're making this more of an emotional post rather than a rational one. (This just means I'm expecting some respect here - not mockery since positivity is best in debates).

Anyways, to your point - let's use Vayne as an ADC who is the most likely to duel any other assassin toe-to-toe. Tristana would just run, Twitch would also run or require an advantage, Kog is a glass cannon. If the ADC has a maw/GA/Stopwatch - no towers, and is facing an assassin with let's say a randuin's/sterak's/GA, I am open to argue with those parameters since you're most likely to include defenses.

TL;DR - You want the 1v1 scenario? I'm completely open to hear your story and debate it - but I don't want you acting like a child when posting about it.

Ok sure but why4 votes

{quoted}

Tanks aren't OP against ADCs. The "insane damage" they do is because ADCs build no resistances and get caught by them.

This part still is technically a problem the entire game has as a whole. Everyone has a high amount of base damage with reduced scaling. So by default, the person who builds more tanky items will almost always beat the person who builds glass cannon, unless you're maybe an amazing kiter with Ashe against a Mundo who can't land his Q. And that in itself is a rare exception, since most tanks have easy-to-land cc and strong gap-closers.

Elohaven6 votes

If you get into Mundo's range, you deserve to die as an ADC.

Edit: Can people post if they downvoted this? I am open to discussion. I want to hear your thoughts.

LUXANNA HOSHIDO2 votes

idk why you got downvoted lol

Ok sure but why1 votes

My thought is, if you're an ADC that doesn't have massive kiting potential Ashe Kalista, and your support is a fucking buffoon who neither peels nor heals, a 4000-health Mundo can easily ult his way into your face with his hard-to-miss slow and bonus movement speed and slaughter you in your entirety.

And even if you are an ADC with massive kiting potential, he'll still manage to catch up to you eventually!

Elohaven1 votes

As a Vayne main, I don't find Mundo hard to kite. However, if your team won't peel and you're playing an immobile ADC - Mundo deserves to get on top of you due to bad teamwork. It may sound bad for the ADC since it isn't their fault, but a bad team play needs to have a consequence - that's one of them.

Ok sure but why1 votes

"As someone who's literally able to go invisible, dodge skillshots and deal %max health true damage, mundo isn't hard to kite"

Wooooooow, good job.

Elohaven1 votes

You're naming only the strengths of the champion.

Mundo has a slow, %HP damage, AoE, health regen, and I have to always be in his range to battle him. You also dismissed the rest of the post.

ThePikol4 votes

What you don't realize is that if a class is gutted, you're going to nerf your own class in the long run since they'll be too OP? I hope that's recognized.

That's good and what everyone wants. If we gut ADCs, then according to you other class will dominate, so Riot will have to nerf them too and so on. That will mean the damage overall is nerfed and that's exactly what everyone wants now

Shablagoo4 votes

This is the problem with this, you thinkk balance = gutting the class. That is not the case that isnt what people want, what people want is for every class in the game to be able to carry. For adc's to have actual risk, and not just their support and the rest of the team meat shielding for them because they ae inherently inbalanced. For adc's to be actual carries again and not all arounders that dominate every point of the game. It isnt gutting we want it is balance, the reason you are scared of balance is because the balancing team doesnt know how to balanced all they to is gut that is their form of balance, which is a another problem entirely.

Elohaven2 votes

I'm not dismissing your argument but I just want to say I don't think balance is gutting the class. I believe that's what other people are suggesting with extreme suggestions such as making ADCs immobile etc. which is dull in terms of design.

I agree with your points that all classes should be able to carry and the balance team is making it harder for, IMO high elo players since that's when the game is properly played, to carry in other roles.

Shablagoo1 votes

I'm glad you understand that, and to be perfectly honest champions like vayne are fun to play with, however are never fun to play against. Trist actually is the best example, mobile, self-peeling hyper carry, with good burst like most adc's anyway with crit. She is toxic, so toxic literally one of the worst designed adc's in the game. If we compare the two we so nothing but toxicity in the kit. Yet we look at someone like jinx, and the counterplay is so clear. Again champions like lucian and ez, both with mobility yet always toxic when strong. If a champion has to be gutted to be balanced its design is flawed.

Dont get me wrong I am not saying mobile adc's can't happen, it is jsut Riot has done it wrong, very wrong for so long.

no to toxic1 votes

Soon Aatrox

LUXANNA HOSHIDO1 votes

I think CDR and Crit Chance are fine but some champions are heavily reliant on it. With that in mind, if you would make adjustments to address it what do you think should happen?

Elohaven2 votes

I think there's a lot of creep.

Damage, CDR, mobility etc.

With CDR, I believe some items do not need CDR and we should increase some CDs on champions. For example, spammable hard CC shouldn't exist. It should be part of a coordinated chain of events that creates a play.

EG Nasus being able to spam W late-game due to the duration exceeding the length isn't healthy. It's cases like this that can be addressed.

I'm more inclined to looking at champions than items though. Some items can definitely lose the CDR, but some champions specifically rely on an item set. We'd have to look at champions for CDR individually.

Crit Chance is a RNG value that is more appealing for low elo players than high elo due to its RNG. It's more luck than skill. A rework or a much more controlled system of crit chance would be the "ideal scenario" - but think about the complexity required to make the system please all parties. Crit as a property in games decreases its variability just by being a pseudo-random number. It's a blessing and a curse. I will not post suggestions on how to change it but I do believe it's a hard topic to "fix".

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