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Why was Talisman of Ascension nerfed so hard?

LordKentravyon·11/18/2015, 12:54:25 AM·18 votes·2,013 views
Talisman of Ascension

Why was Talisman of Ascension nerfed so much? Don't get me wrong I like the general idea of the current support items. Get 1 weaker hybrid support/sightstone item and have a free slot for w.e. else or have a more powerful dedicated support item and sightstone. But currently I see no point going the later route. There is so much better to have in the item slot this would take up and the 10% off active cooldown from ruby sighstone does not even come close to making up for it,

This really makes the coin line seem really lackluster now. I used to love the item, sustain + gottagofast but it just feels like I will almost always be served better by the others now. (For example take a item 2303 +item 3800 Instead of item 3069 +item 2045 ) Sure no use in disengages but at least I feel like i'm getting something stat / use wise...

Changes for context V5.22:

Combine cost reduced to 800 Gold from 835 Gold. Total cost increased to 2200 Gold from 2100 Gold. Gold generation removed. Movement speed removed. Favor gold increased to 6 from 4. Active cooldown increased to 60 seconds from 40.

17 Comments

Aeolian Melodies11/18/2015, 1:11:42 AM8 votes

Honestly, the CD should be around 60 sec which was what this item and its ancestor, Shurelya's Reverie, used to have... the buff that gave it a 40 sec CD was uncalled for imo (and that is coming from a support main who mostly play Janna, who benefits highly from any buff to this line of item). It's one of the most powerful active in the game, and probably the most powerful supportive active, it had no business being on such a low CD imo. 1 min is fair. Why should Talisman have a lower CD than FCQ's spooky ghosts when it is more potent in most situations?

RogueWill11/18/2015, 1:06:30 AM3 votes

They should make in such a way that item 2045 would give you rechargeable wards so you don't have to go to base every time. Either time it or give charges on assist or kills, that way I woudl get more utility out of it. Currently if i go for the strong support item I end up sitting on a plain sighstone until is the last up gradable item. The 10% reduction on items and the extra ward slot don't make up for the 1k gold I have to invert of it. 4 wards run as easily as 3 so I have to go back to base anyway and if it because of teh 500hp it gives i would rather just get a giat belt and built a item 3143 or item 3742 instead

Sona Ping11/18/2015, 5:48:05 AM2 votes

"Why was Talisman of Ascension changed like this?"

I'll take a crack at it. Of course, we would have to get an involved Red to explain exactly what their perspective and reasons were.

"Combine cost reduced to 800 Gold from 835 Gold." Technically, this one's a buff. But it's really rather small so I won't say more on the subject.

"Total cost increased to 2200 Gold from 2100 Gold." I'm certain that this is due to the increase in gold for all champions and is part of all the cost adjustment that occurred across the board to compensate for it. I bet Rioter could post the calculations they did that show there was no net increase in actual cost. "[Passive] Gold generation removed." And this is the other half, with the increase in global gold, it's likely intended that players won't need to depend as much on the GP10 anymore. And with the additional buffs to the coin line at every stage, the passive gold generation portion is not necessary. I will also explicitly restate and stress that the support will now, after 12 minutes, gain double the passive gold generation that Talisman had for no cost.

"Movement speed removed." This one isn't as clear, you'll have to ask a Red. "Favor gold increased to 6 from 4." Straight Buff. As stated earlier, the entire line was buffed at every stage.

"Active cooldown increased to 60 seconds from 40." This is an adjustment because of new introductions into the game. It should be understood first that this is revert of part of a large buff to Talisman and the 40s cooldown is quite low. Now in this season, the wise player who is going to choose Talisman would also be getting the Ruby Sightstone which means Talisman is going to have even lower cooldown. It's still going to have a significantly lower cooldown than other item actives while still being quite strong. You mentioned Righteous Glory's active, but Talisman's active is better for the role because it's far less linear, being able to be useful more often, providing disengage on top of the engage boost, and has lower cooldown by one-third or more. Also, aside to this, the Supports who really fit with Talisman and want it over the other lines usually can't really use Righteous Glory that well.

Only Play Darius11/18/2015, 8:05:19 AM2 votes

I hate having 3 people initiate on from a screen away that's why

Coin nerfs are warranted due to reduced vision making it already easy enough to get 3v1 ganked out of nowhere without any way to prepare yourself. If Coin was as it used to be this preseason would be even more ridiculous

Ale non è male11/18/2015, 12:03:22 PM2 votes

Talisman was too dominant because of his active advantage over the other support items FoTM active wasn't easy to use when you really need it in late game because it was very mechanically demanding to use it upon your normal abilities + other two or 3 active items on a teamfighting while moving and repositioning yourself in a teamfight (you basically had to develop SC kind of mechanics to make full use of that item) Frost Queen active was even worse given that you had to aim to shoot a skillshot that did little damage and applied weak CC upon having the same problems of FoTM active and this while distracting you from actually using your abilities or more powerful items

Also, FoTM and Frost Queen scaled far worse from their 2 tier items than Talisman did, as FOTM granted just a bit of health and slighlty more base health regen, and Frost Queen slighlty more AP and mana regen (which was increased now) and CDR that could have not been all that useful given that most support items have CDR; Talisman upgrade instead gave more gold, more health and mana regen, movement speed and CDR than its 2 tier item

Tbh, it was fair to nerf Talisman, I just think they did it in the wrong way Active cooldown change is fair, especially in the context of the other changes, but remove MS was a big mistake Movement was talisman niche other than gold income, so if anything they should have hit a bit more either the gold income (given talisman is anyway the way to go choice for gold income), the health or mana regen to reduce the item scaling or remove CDR just to avoid the item to be too gold efficient on the purchase when rushed

Celeste Benal11/18/2015, 3:33:18 PM1 votes

Because the movement speed bonus was broken as fuck on Morgana. It was literally impossible to escape from her ult unless you flashed over a wall.

LVL 5 PORO11/18/2015, 5:02:40 PM1 votes

I dont see the point of getting the new support items. The old ones are better and games rarely last long enough for me to utilize the extra item slot. If it does, I'll sell the item and use the open slot, but a game like that would be stretching 50+ mins and in the current meta that never happens anymore so there's literally no point to get these items.

kaltenashes11/18/2015, 6:12:12 PM1 votes

i dont buy these anymore item 3069 item 3092 item 3401, now i just get these instead item 2302 item 2301 item 2303, i think that item 3301 generates less gold than its buddies

Jason the other11/18/2015, 1:35:38 AM1 votes

Dont worry soon it will ASCEND! Boom crash bam!

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

okok ill leave

Odinakos11/18/2015, 2:19:37 PM1 votes

It is still too strong imo. Far away from OP but still too strong. It is a mini Sivir ult no matter how you look it. RG on the other hand has specific conditions to use it. It def blows RG out of the water exept on niche situations like Leona when you are aggresive.

Keep in mind that the combination you compared costs way more than the talisman/simple sightstone. Games end too early now to invest so many gold on those 2 items.Also you don't care a lot about slots since you can have Income item+SS+boots+2 situational support item+pink slot. Games hardly drag into such a late game, most of the time you can barely finish your first situational support item.

Last but not least, range supports feel stronger now. You can pick Janna, Lulu etc just because you want it, not because it is the one in the million cases they can be useful. Before the preseason range supports kinda needed a strong item to balance them, now they dont. Compared to the 2 other previous support items it had the best active. Now the gap is closed, not reached yet.

PS: I love playing range supports this season. And i really like that i can play them again! Time to dust them off again!

RedCyclone11/18/2015, 3:21:25 PM1 votes

Seems stupid how they make it so binary

Before preseason you would be stupid for taking FQC over talisman because the active was terrible and so were the stats Now they flipped it upside down and now FQC is way better then talisman with much of the same problems as FQC had

These items are up against the sightstone upgrade, their actives need to be worth it

Krigjer11/18/2015, 3:25:09 PM1 votes

You can ask my ranked team. I was so exciited when they made the active CD 40 seconds. And then super disappointed when I discovered they changed it back to 60 seconds.

I will throw it out there, however, that I like that they didn't just remove Talisman and FQC completely. I enjoy having the choice between the upgraded sightstone and other actives. My whole problem with this preseason is that I'm being forced to build/play certain ways according to what Riot thinks. I'm glad to still have a choice in gold generation items.