I've Never Played Veigar Before

MarhsallLee67·Feb 14, 2015·81 votes·4,546 views

But what in the actual FUCK was Riot thinking when they gave his stun a delay that lasts nearly a full second?

It's already pretty easy to predict when he's trying to land his stun, as Veigar has to get relatively close to you to land it. Combined with the fact that the current meta consists of champions with insane amounts of mobility that should be nerfed to the ground (cough cough), Veigar's stun will now virtually be useless unless he follows it up on another teammate's CC, which isn't exactly something he can do in lane.

He needs that insta-stun if he wants to get any damage off at all, especially now that his Q is a skillshot (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but with no reliable CC, the only ability he can be guaranteed to land now is his point-and-click ultimate since his w already has a delay and his q is no longer point-and-click).

So, good job, Riot. You've once again made it clear you hate every champion that lacks mobility and can't make LC$BIGPLAY$.

141 Comments

S0NAFeb 14, 201520 votes

I have issues with his "compensation buff" ex: his q "can" give 2 AP.

Go into a custom game with Lux and try to execute 2 minions with 1 Q.

That's what it's gonna be like.

NarasimhaFeb 14, 20154 votes

Lux's Q does half damage on the second hit though, right?

DirewolfiezFeb 14, 201522 votes

The point is, how often are two minions low health and in a line? Not very damn often. You'll most likely just chunk it and miss the chance to get the 2nd stack and either have to AA it to get the gold, or just lose it entirely. Horrible line of thinking, the people making the changes don't understand his abilities at all.

SPICYXLFeb 15, 20151 votes

I completely agree with you guys. This is just an idea, but I think that when Veigar's Q hits the 2nd minion, that minion should:

Take 125% or 150% more damage so Veigar has a better chance of getting that 2 AP.
Be marked for 3-5 seconds. What this mark does is make it so that if Veigar kills the minion by any means(autoattack, w) within that time frame he will get the extra AP.

Zeolix WYDFeb 15, 20152 votes

Passive:

Vegar gains 1stack (of this passive) every time he last hits a minion. When he gets a kill, he gains ap equal to the amount of stacks he has. Half of the stacks are lost upon death. (Think Draven passive)

ReazaleFeb 15, 20154 votes

He wont kill ppl with the current pbe changes , so this idea would be great for riot.

InsaneSamuraiFeb 15, 20154 votes

This is a skill that people will be able to learn though, its not like you have no control over how much damage the minions take.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 15, 20152 votes

It's actually insanely easy mid to late game. Early it's not terribly helpful, though. Except you can play it like Lissandra, and use it to farm and poke simultaneously.

ZydinFeb 14, 201515 votes

I just look at it like this.

His stun will have some counter play to it, finally. No more once I land this you're dead. I think it should only be .5 sec instead tho. They are also increasing the range of the spell to compensate a little for the added delay.

You can still farm your Q but also have the opportunity to harass/poke with it as well as the chance to get double the farm. It's adding a little more skill into playing him while adding to the utility of the skill it's self.

DirewolfiezFeb 14, 201513 votes

You're also forgetting the warning particles. They're making it ridiculously hard to land his only CC. They also don't seem to understand that "trapping" people inside his cage does absolutely nothing. I've played Veig a decent amount, and I know that if you're inside his cage that you can walk to the other side to avoid his W; its hitbox isn't big enough to ensure that it'll hit whoever is inside the cage, which is why people started hitting people with the edges for the stun. There's a reason his playstyle is the way it is, and the people making the "buffs" obviously don't understand him well enough. They shouldn't update champions they don't understand, or we get shit like Cass.

ZydinFeb 14, 20152 votes

I did forget about the warning particles. My bad ^_^.

The main way i can see trapping people to be a good thing would be to make a 5v5 team fight more in your favor. I can see a team fight breaking out and Veig drops this stun and not it's a 5v3 and the enemy team has to be careful about what they do otherwise the could get stunned.

It's going from a "got you now you die" to a zone control type spell.

Personally i really enjoy Cassiopeia All she has to do is survive early game and she becomes extremely power full. Spamming twin fang at 1k ap with even a little spell vamp and gaining back more life then their adc does from their life steal. So much fun.

DirewolfiezFeb 14, 201515 votes

Except he's not a control mage, he's a single-target burst mage, and forcing him into a different playstyle without redesigning his kit around a new playstyle is a horrible idea. He still has damage, except his ONE control spell is harder to land than ever. People whine that he's oppressive, yet refuse to counterbuild (although people still claim that Zed is healthy because you have two options to negate his burst). He's generally a pubstomper; if you know how to play against one, they're not much of a threat. I wiped the floor with one as Annie, and that was after I fed him AND I was building AP. Not saying that his stun isn't really helpful in teamfights, but in those situations he acts like an assassin, focusing the enemy APC or ADC, or maybe the enemy AP jungler in the worst situation. These new changes will make it harder to do his job, and will make him even more unviable than he already is. His stun was his one defense against mobile champs like Yasuo, yet apparently they need to be able to dodge it because Veig is so horrible.

Again, except they're basically leaving the rest of his kit as 100-0 burst, while making his stun harder to pull off, which essentially makes his 100-0 burst harder to pull off. Making him a full control mage (which, admittedly, would still piss me off) would make more sense, but instead they're half-assing it and claiming that a half-burst half-control mage is good, even though a half-'n'half champ usually can't do either job very well.

I'm not saying that the new Cass is shit, I'm saying they basically dumpstered the old Cass and basically made a new champ, since only 1 playstyle is really possible now. And really, the "crap laning phase but late-game monster" was Veig's role.

PartholonianFeb 14, 20154 votes

With the rework, he literally has only one single target spell. How is that a single-target burst mage?

DirewolfiezFeb 14, 20156 votes

Even with the two-hitting Q, he still CANNOT burst down entire teams. He's not a dedicated AoE mage. He's an anti-mage mage/mage-assassin. Even with these changes, he will NOT be an AoE burst mage.

NarasimhaFeb 14, 20154 votes

It's already pretty easy to predict when he's trying to land his stun, as Veigar has to get relatively close to you to land it.

Which is exactly why they increased the range of the spell.

Pvt Yong TaiFeb 14, 201512 votes

Not nearly enough. Even if we take a champ with the lowest movement speed in the game (e.g. Zyra), who moves at 325 m/s, every .75 seconds she moves 325*.75 = 243.75 units.

The range of the stun got buffed by 50 m.

Assuming the opponents know to back off when Veigar gets close, you would need an 80% slow to equal out the buff they gave to the stun range.

243.75 * (100%-80%) = 48.75 m/s

In other words, his effective range has drastically decreased.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 15, 20153 votes

It's a shame movespeed slows have a hard floor at 110. So it's even worse than what you say. Effectively the increased range means nothing with that much delay.

JunkοFeb 14, 201512 votes

Wow they increased the range by 50! That's a lot! sarcasm

NarasimhaFeb 14, 20154 votes

Ask any adc if 50 range can make a difference. Go on. I'll wait.

JunkοFeb 14, 201510 votes

There is a difference between 50 range on a spell that already had the longest range in the game and an autoattack.

HugonautsFeb 15, 20157 votes

I asked Lucian

He said not really.

CopelandoFeb 15, 20153 votes

I asked Azir

75 range killed him, because there was no compensation

MajorLuckFeb 15, 20154 votes

we need to add counterplay to Veigar stun

meanwhile Vi meanwhile Annie

just another day in the office for Rito

AbrahamBaconhamFeb 15, 20154 votes

Are you seriously arguing that League of Legends actually needed that massive, lengthy, instant, impossible-to-dodge-if-used-right, AoE stun that was better than the ultimates of most champions?

Reduce the delay to 0.5 seconds or less, everyone is happy.

MarhsallLee67Feb 15, 20157 votes

I would take Veigar stun over the bullshit mobility we see in recent champion designs any day.

KaisadiIIaFeb 16, 20151 votes

It's more frustrating to me to play against Zed, Lee Sin or Vi than against Veigar. I tell you this as a main midlaner.

Also, I'd like to see a single ultimate that can be considered weaker than that stun.

And it is worth mention that the stun actually lasts for 1.5 seconds until you max it, and you do that at level 14-18. So early game he will always stun you for 1.5 seconds.

Lord Graves IIIFeb 16, 20151 votes

EDIT: I'm not arguing Veigar is strong and certainly not that he is top tier. I'm really arguing that the changes actually favor Veigar while keeping his flavor intact in the most elegant way possible, while keeping with their stated directions of game design. I'm actually impressed with their work on this one. It won't make him top tier, but it will iron out his crappy bits while making him less frustrating when he is strong.

It's more frustrating to me to play against Zed, Lee Sin or Vi than against Veigar. I tell you this as a main midlaner.

Thats because they all have passable or strong laning phases. Veigar has the worst early game in the League of Legends roster. He is the early game Loser of Legend. (Its ok that his early game sucks. That is part of his flavor and part of his fun

Also, I'd like to see a single ultimate that can be considered weaker than that stun.

Thresh ult for starters. item 3070 Thresh

But also, Jax ult, diana ult, Kog Maw ult, Malz Ult, Nautalis ult, Renekton or Nasus ult. The list literally goes on. He has an ultimate on a normal spell cooldown (if a rather longish one).

And it is worth mention that the stun actually lasts for 1.5 seconds until you max it, and you do that at level 14-18. So early game he will always stun you for 1.5 seconds.

Veigar Silly child. You take an extra level in Event Horizon early on to ensure you always land Dark Matter. Its base damage and scaling are high enough that you can survive with it being at level 1 a little longer. And even then you still had a 1.5 second stun. Still better than Thresh ult. MWUAHHHAAHAHHAHAHA

KaisadiIIaFeb 18, 20151 votes

But also, Jax ult, diana ult, Kog Maw ult, Malz Ult, Nautalis ult, Renekton or Nasus ult. The list literally goes on. He has an ultimate on a normal spell cooldown (if a rather longish one).

Not really. You are taking out of context, but they are definitely not that weak. Jax's R allows him to tank really well in teamfights and it's the only reason he was considered top-tier short time ago. Diana's R is her more important spell (and that's why Diana's powerspike comes with level 6). Kog'Maw's R is more of a fourth basic ability than an R, and it's OK because Kog'Maw's basic kit is strong enough.

If you change Veigar's E for Diana's R it would be useless for him, but if you changed Diana's R for Veigar's stun she would be useless too. Same even if you change Malzahar's R for that stun. Every ability is weak or strong in its own context, that's were people fail when they try to compare two abilities from two different champions despite them having different needs.

Lord Graves IIIFeb 19, 20151 votes

I'm not saying that those characters have a problem. I'm simply stating that in a vacuum, Veigar's E is stronger than many spells.

Diana's R is only better because of the rest of her kit. The ult itself just isn't as powerful as a veigar stun. Kog Maw is fine. Living artillery is not as powerful as Event Horizon.

While yes, strength in context is more important, Event Horizon is stronger in a vacuum than nearly any other single spell, and I would argue more than most ultimates

KaisadiIIaFeb 19, 20151 votes

The point is precisely that comparing spells individually is pointless. You must compare full kits.

Lord Graves IIIFeb 19, 20151 votes

Normally you'd be absolutely right. But much like win rates, individual spells can still be useful to look at.

But are you seriously about to tell me Event Horizon isn't an incredibly powerful spell? I said Veigar has a spell as strong as most ultimates on a normal (if longish) cooldown. I stand by that statement. The only reason Veigar is balanced is because for the power of event horizon he pays in other aspects. Short Q and ult range. Delay on W, poor base stats, worst early game in league of legends.

The E changes will balance his power across his kit better.

aaronconlinFeb 14, 20153 votes

Honestly I think they should add a slow inside the area caged by his stun, or a movement speed boost inside it.

For example, an enemy jumps him, he casts event horizon, the enemy is either slowed while inside the area, or Veigar is faster, giving him a sort of escape.

The slow would also give him another form of CC, so if people dash/flash out of the area he can still follow up (maybe)

NeoBlaze8Feb 15, 20154 votes

He needs the instante stunt, of he will feed the ganks

aaronconlinFeb 15, 20152 votes

Wut

ReazaleFeb 15, 20152 votes

What he means is simple: Without the instant stun , any champ with mobility will be able to gank and secure a kill against veigar most of the team, unless his W gets changed and he gets another cc on his kit, he will never survive a gank. Its not like aa/spells cant leave his E, or u can flash out of it.

QuortFeb 15, 20152 votes

What if... enemies trapped within his event horizon got significantly sped up?! I played an MMO before where the Archer class had a spell that instantly boost the target's movement speed to the cap for a few seconds and it was hilarious! People would be totally surprised and run straight into walls or enemies! I could totally see some players trying to juke skills with the movespeed and instead face planting into the edges of Event Horizon! xD

(this post isn't meant to be taken seriously, I just thought it might be humorous)

Athenes LuluFeb 16, 20152 votes

And we also wonder why is his R scaling nerfed out of the blue...

Sure, the E warning particle looks sparkly and pretty, but I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to actually get caught into that cage wall. Also, I don't know how is his stun "undodgeable" if his movements are a little too predictable, especially that it's an actual ring-shaped skillshot.

I don't have to bring up about Annie with her 100-0 potential with stuns that are actually undodgeable, right?

FrikgeekFeb 15, 20151 votes

Obviously you've never played against support Veigar with Righteous glory and talisman. Activates both those items and suddenly his team has like 600 movement speed and he can stun your team from 1050 range. This stun also lasts 2.5 seconds, LONGER THAN FIDDLE FEAR OR RAMMUS TAUNT, which are often said to last "forever".

j jFeb 15, 20152 votes

The stun is conditional, your own MS, banshees, spell shields block the stun. Machete or QSS that shit. Additionally you could also buy righteous glory on any of your bruisers / tank / supports. Also the OP mobility, blink, dash or flash skillzz counter harddd Get good? Veigar has been shit tier forever and only was viable to an extent when mobility was a luxury to champions. Also when there wasn't an over abundance of assa casters who used AD or had so many juke skills. There's already so many kit, item counters to veigar as well as a summoner ability. I used to love playing him but it's impossible due to the mobility in this game. Insert X ability here in new champions, so they can make clutch catche, juke, and save plays for LCS LMAO.

Literally any Ap champ that gets ulted by veigar and dies needs to learn to hourglass his ultimate is awful because the speed is slow and because it's a target projectile. All of which makes veigar completely useless.

Riot balance team really not helping veigars case at all. Assassins still # 1 at all things in the game.

FrikgeekFeb 15, 20151 votes

I fail to see how mobility or flash counter veigar stun atm. It's literally an instant 2.5s AoE stun if you aim it properly, you're not supposed to trap people in it, you're supposed to tag them with the edge for an instant stun. Spell shields block every spell, I don't see why they'd counter Veigar more than anyone else. All you have to do is break them with long-range poke.

Righteous glory only gives you movespeed TOWARDS enemy champions, it's completely useless against someone charging at you with that stun. QSS will remove any CC aside from knockups ,but machete? What the fuck can a jungle item do vs a stun? And you can't zhonya while stunned, so all Veigar has to do is stun the enemy AP and press R, easy kills.

And don't tell me that you build both zhonya and QSS on your midlaners because you can't really upgrade QSS into something useful for your APC. And even if they QSS your stun you're still 1050 range away, just fall back and try again once your 60s CD talisman is up and their 90s QSS is still down. Or pressure towers knowing that their "get out of CC" card isn't available. Mobility doesn't do crap against an instant stun, that's like saying you can dodge Annie's flash tibbers combo (protip: you can't, even if you're Korean) by flashing or dashing away. There's a reason Veigar support is popular in high Elo Korean soloQ, that stun is better than some ultimates.

Just because you play Veigar wrong by using him as an AP mid doesn't mean he's not good in the proper role.

Also, Annie and Veigar both have around a 52% winrate in diamond+, while Zed and Leblanc(those "OP" assassins with "OP" mobility) are both around 48%. It's obvious that instant ranged AoE lockdown is much better than single-target burst.

ReazaleFeb 15, 20151 votes

If a Veigar charges into a fight like u said , he has a death wish and will most likely die. any other initiator would do that better than him and would pack more overall CC and has more chances of surviving , like idk , malphite...

That way of playing Veigar is like playing him with one skill , ONLY one skill , and that skill will no longer exist , and whats the compensation for it , nerfs to everything else less his W which is now irrelevant cos without the actual E it will no longer land , he lost 2 skills and his only defensive skill with nothing good coming out of it , no compensation (and if u call those "range buffs" anything good its BS cos his ults still has 650 and mana cost and cds on W-E-R are pointless and worthless)

FrikgeekFeb 15, 20151 votes

Charges into a fight? He's still 1025 range away when he presses E. He's in no danger whatsoever. malphite is shit tier because it's so easy to just flash his ult and leave him in the middle of the enemy team with no hard CC. You can't flash Annie's or Veigar's AoE stuns.

KaisadiIIaFeb 16, 20151 votes

Malphite is trash-tier because RIOT has destroyed tanks last year (tons of armor penetration, 8% HP scaling on BotRK, true damage everywhere -even for drake-, every champion has % damage in some abilities, tank items -randuin, frozen heart, even rylai- got nerved or changed, and now Kalista can just stack 30 spears and execute a tank with 1,200 health). Flash existed two years ago, and Malphite was considered OP these times.

You don't know how frustrating I was playing Sion two days ago with 5,500 health and 150+ resistances and getting melted by a Jinx in 3 seconds.

FrikgeekFeb 16, 20151 votes

Malphite was considered op 2 years ago

In what rating? Gold and below? I've been playing LoL since season 1 and I don't remember a time when malphite was a really scary pick. Sure, he was a strong laner when armour penetration was much weaker and you couldn't just rush LW+brut to completely counter him but he was only a must-ban in the lower leagues. Just like Mumu, Blitz, Yi, and the rest of the Bronzodia. Also, if you get hit by 30 Kalista autos then probably dead anyway, even without her spears. Even with a 2.5 AS it takes 12 seconds to do that, and there's no way anything can survive an ADC autoing him for 12 seconds. And you can't really call yourself tanky if you're not running at least 300+ armor, that's how it works now. And even then it's good if you can survive their damage longer than their frontliner can survive the damage from your team. Whoever loses their tank first will probably lose the teamfight.

KaisadiIIaFeb 18, 20151 votes

I don't know right now, but a few months ago LCS players didn't pick tanks and preferred ranged fighters/mages like Lulu or Gnar instead. And jungler was usually another fighter capable of assassinate.

Ale non è maleFeb 15, 20151 votes

{quoted} Spell shields block every spell, I don't see why they'd counter Veigar more than anyone else. All you have to do is break them with long-range poke.

Veigar doesn't have long-range poke/harass to break spell shields consistently if enemy knows what they are doing. veigar range is shorter than a lot of mids poke/harass

Samflash3Feb 15, 20151 votes

Now he does. Skillshot Q.

Ale non è maleFeb 15, 20151 votes

I was talking of the live Veigar with the point and click Q and istant stun

FrikgeekFeb 16, 20151 votes

Sure, but why would you need to break it yourself? You have a team with you. Unless your team is completely lacking long-range poke, then you're probably running some weird silver AoE comp with no siege potential.

Ale non è maleFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sure, but why would you need to break it yourself? You have a team with you. Unless your team is completely lacking long-range poke, then you're probably running some weird silver AoE comp with no siege potential.

If in your team your mid doesn't have long-range poke (like Veigar), who else in your team would provide it, barring your ADC? Only few mages shifted on top lane, almost no one jungler and few supports that would have it, and thus you should need your entire team to build around the Vegiar mid pick, which is weird to ask to your team to do even at the highest levels of the game