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So is new poppy good or bad?

Linna Excel··4 votes·5,199 views

Why is her win rate so bad? This is not the Poppy rework I was waiting for.

I just checked her stats on champion.gg. She's not looking too hot atm. Could it be that people didn't release she was changed as they play the new her? Did riot make a mistake by deleting the assassin build? Where her old passive and ult the only things keeping her viable?

My thoughts

  1. Still too soon to tell for sure but late enough to make some early guesses. She didn't come out of the gate as OP, so I guess that's good as she doesn't have to be banned away (well she does, but so your teammates don't grab her). I wouldn't want one on my team in solo queue right now.
  2. People are building her tanky... like riot wanted. She's also losing a lot... also like riot wanted? Maybe they need to re-think supporting her assassin playstyle.
  3. A late IBG on the new her doesn't take the place of rushing a TF on the old her. You really need to abuse that sheen with poppy. I think people are waiting too long.
  4. Everyone is rushing BC on her and it doesn't seem to be working. Generally you rush something because you need it to win the game. I'd try something else as a first item.
  5. I don't think the passive on her W is making up for the loss of her old passive. Riot hated the old one, but I've got a feeling her kit needed it.
  6. No comment on the new ult or that mini-game new passive of hers.
  7. The biggest thing between winning poppys and losing poppys seems to be mastery choice. 12-18-0 has a 12% winrate buff of 0-12-18. Nerf TLD?
  8. Her win rate in the jungle is just as bad as it is up top. So at least we can rule out lane issues as her big problem.
  9. My biggest issue with her is her lack of assists. A tank should be getting at least a few. She's pretty low and she's not getting kills either. If you look at the champs below her in the jungle, they are all champs who can get kills. So she's getting few kills like a tank but also getting few assists like an assassin. This is reflected in her terrible gold earned. 53/55 in top? 42/46 jungle? Yeah, she's not doing her job and not getting fed.
  10. Up top, she's one the lowest champs in terms of CS. These are plat+ players getting close to my level of CSing on her. That's awful. This makes me think that she's losing lane early or can't trade back reliably enough. She's never had a good early game, but I don't know if she has the late game anymore to make up for it.

I think she needs a buff and a rethinking on the no-assassin poppy stance. Her tanking kit now too weak (lack of assists and gold from assists). She can't CS. She can't get kills for the low number of assists she gets. While riot can still fix her in a patch or two, and you have to assume some idiots are trying her in solo queue without learning her new kit, I think it's safe to say that she either really needs a buff or her skill floor on the new kit is very high... lee sin or azir high. I don't remember riot saying they wanted to make her lee sin difficult so I'm going with idiots need to learn her before playing her in ranked and that she needs a buff.

Let's be honest, first impressions are everything. So statistically, most people's first impression with the new poppy is that she is a loser. Considering she was one of the more unplayed champs before, I think in all likelihood people are going to take a look at her bad win rate, assume the rework for her was terrible, and forget about her until one of the pros pick her up. As for myself, I don't think I'm going to look at her again for awhile until her winrate is above sub-urgot levels. Whoever says winrate is a bad indicator of a champ is full of it when said winrate is either the worst one in the game or the best one in the game. Right now, Urgot is taking a piss on the new poppy and laughing at her for sucking so bad. Yes I know it might pick up on its own (and I suggest riot wait another week before making any changes) but I'd rather wait and see before playing this snaggletoothless champ.

While I'm thinking about it... dear, dear champ up team, will you please rework every champ who counters Ahri and make them as bad as the new poppy is? Please change their roles, make them unable to get kills or assists, and make sure they can't CS. That'd be really nice of you guys and it'd put your skills of screwing over champs I used to like playing to good use.

25 Comments

Niyumi4 votes

Honestly (as I've been saying in a lot of threads), I think she's fine. She has a low win rate because her skillcap got a lot higher, and now has a win rate akin to Azir (who no one can really play properly) -- she's not a weak champion, but she absolutely fails if you don't play her really well. I can instantly kill squishies with her, and I can take on tanks and do reasonable damage to them, but I can die if I mess up, or they can get away if I fail a stun or something.

Second ever penta was with new Poppy (only two pentas to date), and my best game so far is 18/5. So, I think we just have a melee version of Azir, is all. Very difficult champ to pull off, but rewarding when you do. (I honestly find it laughable to say Lee is as difficult as Azir though. :P Lee is pathetically easy.)

In short though, yeah, I think she's fine. She'll probably be buffed, which I won't object to, but I don't really feel like she needs it.

Linna Excel1 votes

Now if what you are saying is true, this would be interesting because Azir is pretty common in esports. If she is a high skill cap champ (and I think she has a bit of anti-protect the carry with her ult) she might be good for #LCS big plays.

Truly Prideful1 votes

Meteos thinks she's pretty awesome so far, I wouldn't be surprised to see her do well in pro play. Her kit has plenty of utility in it.

Personally, I like having her on my team so far. That dash block is awesome if the person times it well and her new ult can definitely change a fight heavily if you get a good one.

Niyumi1 votes

I donno, I just hope she doesn't become FOTM, because I love her so much, and I want to play her almost every match. xD

I think she definitely does have pro play potential though, because of her R and W which entirely change the dynamic of the game.

JedenVojak4 votes

New Poppy's kit is much too reactionary for her to be any good, and some of her abilities just don't make any sense.

Her Q only works if the enemy stays in it. This ability is just really bad.

Her E only works if the enemy is next to the wall. It's basically her old E, just with much less damage.

Her W only works if the enemy dashes. It is also in the weird spot where it's both a stickyness/wall ability and her repositioning tool - if you need to go fast, you can't block the enemy dash when you actually get to them, but if you try to hold it till you reach them you may not get to them at all.

Her R is only useful if you need to completely disengage a guy from a fight, either vs you or your team. There are just too many circumstances where this is not useful, vs most ults where their "I don't want to use this cases" come from a saving-your-power standpoint rather than the it's-just-not-gonna-help-me-here standpoint.

She has 4 different super situational abilities, low damage, and low reliability. She really needs more reliable damage in her kit, and fewer gimmicks if she's going to not suck.

BastionKross3 votes

She has 4 different super situational abilities, low damage, and low reliability. She really needs more reliable damage in her kit, and fewer gimmicks if she's going to not suck.

We call this "being Sion'd".

JedenVojak2 votes

I would say Sion while being really unreliable, still has more universally applicable abilities than Poppy does... his Q AOE is slow bug he can pop it earlier to get a fleeing target, his tankiness is on demand at the push of a button, rather than tied between 2 weak passives, he has a ranged tool on a cooldown he can actually use, and his ult while being fairly dodgeable is still a strong initiation/chase tool.

Poppy has all of the weaknesses she had before (no spammable poke tools or ranged farming ability, kiteability, low wave clear Q not good enough) while also gaining new ones (damage falls off early, unreliable/situational abiltiies, squishy early/mid game). Her entire kit is countered by walking fast, that is, anyone who has 10-15 more move speed than Poppy completely bones her, and there's not much she can do about it.

LordBrasca4 votes

Imo she just need fixes on animations, i have lost the count of times where i lost that auto due to weird animation and the weird interaction with E. Also the ulti doesn't feel good when charging, it's too easy to dodge and on top of that you get slowed.... At the moment doesn't really have purposes if not to peel for your carries when needed. Tbh i would add an execute to that ulti so that you can use it to at least try to last hit enemies with low hp, that would give me a good reason to use it outside of peeling.

Markus Vakarian1 votes

animations. you said what i have been thinking for 2 weeks. Auto attacks and Q are too slow

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

So just like old Poppy, then. Aaaaaaah yeah, the clunky swing time on Q. Good memories.

Markus Vakarian1 votes

No. the Old Q had also auto attack reset because it was an auto attack. The Q now should be like Malphite's E. Click and boom,very fast but ability.

Linna Excel1 votes

Her main problem is bad animations? That's an interesting thing to consider but I can understand why it would cause issues.

OmManiPadmeHum3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nkv9e6gt,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-12-16T04:50:55.633+0000)

Why is her win rate so bad? This is not the Poppy rework I was waiting for.

I just checked her stats on champion.gg. She's not looking too hot atm. Could it be that people didn't release she was changed as they play the new her? Did riot make a mistake by deleting the assassin build? Where her old passive and ult the only things keeping her viable?

My thoughts

  1. Still too soon to tell for sure but late enough to make some early guesses. She didn't come out of the gate as OP, so I guess that's good as she doesn't have to be banned away (well she does, but so your teammates don't grab her). I wouldn't want one on my team in solo queue right now.
  2. People are building her tanky... like riot wanted. She's also losing a lot... also like riot wanted? Maybe they need to re-think supporting her assassin playstyle.
  3. A late IBG on the new her doesn't take the place of rushing a TF on the old her. You really need to abuse that sheen with poppy. I think people are waiting too long.
  4. Everyone is rushing BC on her and it doesn't seem to be working. Generally you rush something because you need it to win the game. I'd try something else as a first item.
  5. I don't think the passive on her W is making up for the loss of her old passive. Riot hated the old one, but I've got a feeling her kit needed it.
  6. No comment on the new ult or that mini-game new passive of hers.
  7. The biggest thing between winning poppys and losing poppys seems to be mastery choice. 12-18-0 has a 12% winrate buff of 0-12-18. Nerf TLD?
  8. Her win rate in the jungle is just as bad as it is up top. So at least we can rule out lane issues as her big problem.
  9. My biggest issue with her is her lack of assists. A tank should be getting at least a few. She's pretty low and she's not getting kills either. If you look at the champs below her in the jungle, they are all champs who can get kills. So she's getting few kills like a tank but also getting few assists like an assassin. This is reflected in her terrible gold earned. 53/55 in top? 42/46 jungle? Yeah, she's not doing her job and not getting fed.
  10. Up top, she's one the lowest champs in terms of CS. These are plat+ players getting close to my level of CSing on her. That's awful. This makes me think that she's losing lane early or can't trade back reliably enough. She's never had a good early game, but I don't know if she has the late game anymore to make up for it.

I think she needs a buff and a rethinking on the no-assassin poppy stance. Her tanking kit now too weak (lack of assists and gold from assists). She can't CS. She can't get kills for the low number of assists she gets. While riot can still fix her in a patch or two, and you have to assume some idiots are trying her in solo queue without learning her new kit, I think it's safe to say that she either really needs a buff or her skill floor on the new kit is very high... lee sin or azir high. I don't remember riot saying they wanted to make her lee sin difficult so I'm going with idiots need to learn her before playing her in ranked and that she needs a buff.

Let's be honest, first impressions are everything. So statistically, most people's first impression with the new poppy is that she is a loser. Considering she was one of the more unplayed champs before, I think in all likelihood people are going to take a look at her bad win rate, assume the rework for her was terrible, and forget about her until one of the pros pick her up. As for myself, I don't think I'm going to look at her again for awhile until her winrate is above sub-urgot levels. Whoever says winrate is a bad indicator of a champ is full of it when said winrate is either the worst one in the game or the best one in the game. Right now, Urgot is taking a piss on the new poppy and laughing at her for sucking so bad. Yes I know it might pick up on its own (and I suggest riot wait another week before making any changes) but I'd rather wait and see before playing this snaggletoothless champ.

While I'm thinking about it... dear, dear champ up team, will you please rework every champ who counters Ahri and make them as bad as the new poppy is? Please change their roles, make them unable to get kills or assists, and make sure they can't CS. That'd be really nice of you guys and it'd put your skills of screwing over champs I used to like playing to good use.

If they are to keep that dumb ult she has now, these are the fixes they need to do:

  1. Make the Q bigger. I realize she is melee, but so is Sion and at least his Q seems worth the mana spent. I would even take the delay that sions have just to have a bigger range and hitbox

  2. Either increase the W diameter, or make is so NOTHING can get out including flashes.

  3. Make her E DO something when she "tackles" the champion. Maybe slow them, or root them for .5 secs or something. Keep the wall mechanic, but add something.

  4. Buff her passive.

Lord Malice3 votes

It's really too bad, I do feel that she is in a worse spot than before the rework. But since she'll never revert here's what i think she needs to be viable.

1: Q. Increase the length of the line, to at least double, that way you can use it to catch a fleeing opponent or set up a gank. Damage is probably fine. 2: W. Why did they change this? Anti dash? I don't get it. Revert to old W IMO. 3: E. I've said it before and I'll say it again, make it a GD skill shot, that way you can use it for mobility as well as attack. Also old E used to interrupt everything else, let's bring that back, It's so annoying when I charge someone and they just flash behind me effectively doubling the distance between us. 4: R Wtf is this nonsense, I almost never want to use this thing and the damage is weaksauce. Keep the channel and the animation and change it to a simple knock up. If she's supposed to be a CC tanky hero then give her CC and tankiness... seems simple.

LegacyDAP2 votes

In my opinion she's bad and unreliable.

eaglei32 votes

Her new passive is too much of a game of chance. Ideal situation, you get to kill a minion with it right before an engage to auto collect. Ideal does not always happen.

In the middle of combat, you have to hope the thing falls in a spot to where it can be picked up easily and not break the flow of combat by having to go get it.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Her new passive is too much of a game of chance. Ideal situation, you get to kill a minion with it right before an engage to auto collect. Ideal does not always happen.

In the middle of combat, you have to hope the thing falls in a spot to where it can be picked up easily and not break the flow of combat by having to go get it.

does it ever not land to poppy's left? some guy was posting videos yesterday where he accurately placed a ward exactly where the shield would land.

Sona Ping1 votes

Because she is a new rework so anybody and everybody is playing her. And she didn't get a new price tag, so it really is everybody. Thousands of games where it is literally somebody's first time playing them and the loses from such games are driving the win rates down. So we are left with a wonderful example of why win rates should not be taken seriously.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

i really hate playing against a poppy. shes really hard to get off your back. she will not stop until she kills you. playing her. shes aight. i mean her cs and jungling. is below average for someone with that much sustain. comparable to alistar jg honestly. i wish she did more damage.

Quepha1 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Poppy Looks bad right? Now switch to jungle Looks a little better... Now look at the graph for games played... People who know what they're doing and using her in the correct role are achieving 55% winrates on her, the winrate is being dragged down by people using a jungler in top lane or just plain playing her poorly.

Also note her 'most frequent' and 'highest win rate' masteries in Top are completely different and have completely different winrates.

All evidence points to people just not knowing how to play her yet. I'm pretty sure Poppy's ult behaves like Ashe's ult in this case: 95% of the time you should use the ult at a very short range when you can ensure a hit on a priority target, yet 95% of the time the player fires at something 3 miles away to try for an EPIC 360 NOSCOPE and whiffs their ult, then in postgame chat blames riot for giving the champion a garbage ult that never does anything.

BladeSteel1 votes

Another question about that data...is the prerework poppy included? because maybe people who have 50-125 games with the old poppy had that winrate. I don't know, either way could be right, its just a question to think about.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I think your argument is WAY oversimplifying things. Most of your ten points don't address her kit at all; they are merely observations about statistics, which WILL change as people learn her.

I will use just one example to refute you: Ryze. Remember after his rework, he was in the dumpster? And then Riot buffed him at the same time people were learning his kit? And then he was WAY OP?

It takes time for people to learn a new champ. And even if she was a "bad tank," it wouldn't mean it couldn't be fixed (by which I mean, "supporting her assassin playstyle" STILL isn't the right answer). They just put a small buff on live yesterday, which I didn't see in your post, and perhaps that will make a difference! Give people some time to figure her out.

I have played with some really good poppys since the rework. Her ultimate, especially, has a big learning curve, and once people figure out how to use her correctly, I think she will be excellent. Her kit is unique, which is great for the game long term, but it also means nobody could have played anything similar before.

TL;DR time, time, time. People need time. Reworks need time. Give it time.

Maximum Morde1 votes

I personally don't think she's bad. She isn't amazing but she feels viable to me. Probably a second tier pick instead of first tier or god tier.

Xicashina1 votes

From my experience she's kinda OP right now i have won my last 5 games with her straight and generally i stopped losing after i figured out how to lane with her. Im worried that she might get small buffs in the next patch though and be consecutively nerfed to the ground. TBH i feel like half the time I'm only winning lane because my opponents aren't playing around me (walking in front of walls, not crushing my shield etc). So id say she's probably balanced in high elo and going to take a while to balance in low elo (were i am)

QuietFocus1 votes

I mastered almost all Yordles, except Rumble and Gnar, and I am still having problems with Poppy... I can't farm early game, I can't trade well, almost all of her abilities are really situational. Can someone give me some advice of how to play her? I never see her being used by any of the pro players. I tried her top where I failed cs-ing miserably, I tried jungle, where I do good if the other jungler just fails so bad (because her clear is too slow compared to other junglers, early game), and when I pick her as a support everybody thinks that I am trolling.

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