So how do we feel about Thornmail?

Anonagon·Jun 30, 2015·1 votes·1,180 views

Thornmail seems to be a very divisive item to me. Most either say it shouldn't exist (I'm one of them) or they say that its a kind of necessary evil to stop the ADC menace.

I think its counter-intuitive to have an item in the game that directly punishes you for attacking. Randuin's slow is one thing, because it can be overcome and its up to the enemy to make use of your slowed movement, but Thornmail is the only item in the game that makes it so enemies can quite literally kill themselves.

29 Comments

IcyPepperJun 30, 20154 votes

If thornmail was removed, lifesteal would be balanced to feel like spellvamp.

I mean, I don't hate either lifesteal or thornmail, but thornmail's what keeps lifesteal and hypercarries in check.

AnonagonJun 30, 20151 votes

Except the carries who do best against Thornmail ARE hypercarries; Vayne and Kog.

All thornmail does is make tanks able to 1v1 most ADCs without actually outplaying them.

IcyPepperJun 30, 20152 votes

I'm not sure what you define as "outplay" considering adc's are ranged while most tanks are... not.

Spamming abilities? Mobility? I'm not sure how it's unfair for thornmail to exist when some adc's can literally rightclick someone to death with the right build. Both tanks and adc's are item reliant here.

AnonagonJun 30, 20151 votes

When I say tanks can win without outplaying, I mean stuff like where Sion or Naut miss like every Q and every E but still win because thornmail makes it impossible to fight back

IcyPepperJun 30, 20151 votes

If Naut misses every Q and E and he still wins a fight, it's because the adc didn't leave his melee range. The only other ranged ability is his ultimate, and it doesn't have enough damage to 100-0 a squishy.

Thornmail is a bitch, but so is being able to deal a shitload of damage at range without using a spell. I could easily reverse this scenario with an adc building lifesteal, damage and crit being able to 1v1 melees without outplaying them because right-clicking doesn't require aiming skillshots.

Don't underestimate range. Thornmail helps level the field, along with randuin's and the such when ranged and lifesteal are combined.

AnonagonJun 30, 20151 votes

You are completely missing the point. I get that they way ADCs exist in the game is a total shitfest. But perhaps stop assuming I'm talking about ranged champions here and think about Tryndamere and Yi.

Thornmail does not solve the problem that ranged ADs pose; all it does is tell carries (ranged or melee) that they can't fight a certain target

Red SilkJun 30, 20153 votes

No thornmail=AD Destroys everyone.

AnonagonJun 30, 20151 votes

Have you forgotten that assassins exists? Have you forgotten that most bruisers can 1v1 most ADCs (most, we ain't talkin Vayne here) without having thornmail?

Thornmail isn't necessary, ADCs are completely balanced without it in the game. All thornmail does is make it so tanks are guaranteed to win 1v1s with most ADCs, which quite honestly shouldn't happen. Tanks should exist to set up the kills for their own damage dealers.

DisasterSolaJun 30, 20152 votes

So... theres four kinds of tanks. HP tanks Resistance tanks Hybrid tanks damage reduction tanks

Resistance and hybrid are by far the most prevalent, making up 80% or so of the entire tank roster, with HP tanks such as vlad, swain, and anivia taking up the remaining 20%. Hybrid tanks SHOULD have the same amount of tank as resistance; but they dont because rito is bad at balancing. Thornmail is meant to be a resistance tank item used to increase the presence of them. Hybrid tanks use it more often though because it has so much armor.

Personally, i think once armor gets above 300 you should start getting proper damage reduction.

Poorly DressedJun 30, 20151 votes

It really depends. If you are a fed tank then it seems a bit strong, if you're behind then thornmail does really nothing against the ADC. Last Whisper needs to be balanced in the first plate - imho ;)

Lost In TimeJun 30, 20151 votes

Why not make it an active, then buff the reflect?

Now you have plays and counterplays that make both parties think and feel good

Because right now, building Thornmail doesn't feel good and getting countered by it sucks even more.

CreationFlawJun 30, 20151 votes

I mean... all you need it blood thirster and BORK to completely counter thornmail while both of those are pretty essential on a lot of adcs

AnonagonJun 30, 20151 votes

Taking 2 lifesteal items gimps a lot of adcs in a meta where they already feel like shit to play

IcyPepperJun 30, 20151 votes

BORK is kind of good against tanks tho, just like LW.

MatezoideJun 30, 20151 votes

As long as Last Whisperer exists, it is fine.

And Omen's doesnt slow the movement speed anymore.

AnonagonJun 30, 20151 votes

Contrary to popular belief, armor pen doesn't counter Thornmail in the slightest. Really the only counter to thornmail is having a huge combination of lifesteal and magic resist, which completely gimps damage output.

FantasySniperJun 30, 20151 votes

Lifesteal does not counter Thornmail. Arm.Pen. is the main counter to Thornmail. Thornmail's passive processes its damage before resistances, so instead of increasing your damage taken, getting Arm.Pen. means you're countering the singular stat that Thornmail possesses, decreasing the damage taken by needing less hits to kill them, and improving the efficiency of lifesteal already present.

Akali is SO HOTJun 30, 20151 votes

Thornmail is a necessary evil

MerthalimewJun 30, 20151 votes

I think it's necessary. There should be a way to counter Draven lol. I was pretty fed and the damn thing did 600 damage to me. Needless to say I didn't 1v1 that guy again...

Don't target the tank. There's ways around it. I would also agree that LW and void staff as well would need to be balanced first. But honestly I think the state of the game is in a pretty good place right now. Cho'gath needs to be nerfed and I think malphite's ratios need to come down.

SincarnationJun 30, 20151 votes

Thornmail is fine, ADC's shouldnt try to 1 v 1 the tank with it Nuff said

TigerMama GemgemJun 30, 20151 votes

The problem with Thornmail is that by nature, it needs to have some sort of immunity to APen considering what it does. In it's current iteration, unless rushed, many ADCs will have item 3035 as a 4th or 5th item. Thornmail is on the cheaper side, but I personally think it should cost more in exchange for the buff above. I'm pretty tired of going tanks and fighters with 300-400 armor and getting shredded by ADC's like Draven, Vayne, and Cait while they actually manage to lifesteal over it, which is silly considering the stats. 30% damage reflection before magic resist. Many ADC's except Vayne get 20% Lifesteal, thus they should be taking at least 10% damage before resist. Last Whisper in its current iteration seems to bypass this making most tanks without a direct leap absolutely useless in the lategame. When I play or someone else plays a tank. I expect them to get kited and die. But when many of them die before they can cc, there's a problem with the way the items work.

AnonagonJun 30, 20151 votes

Thornmail already has a built in ArPen immunity - its damage reflects BEFORE damage reduction.

TigerMama GemgemJul 1, 20151 votes

You misunderstand me. With item 3035 your damage reduction against AD goes to a max of about 50% assuming you have 250-300 armor. This means that the ADC in question can lifesteal through any damage it deals simply because they will have at least 40 magic resist, so unless tanks are suddenly supposed to get voidstaffs, the damage is mitigated to unsubstantial numbers.

AnonagonJul 1, 20151 votes

thats not how any of that math works

with last whisper, it takes ~150 (156 i believe) armor to get 50% damage reduction

with base Magic Resist (30)(we are using 30 here for simplicity's sake, not everyone actually runs mr blues) a ranged champion would have about 25% magic damage reduction, meaning that thornmail does 26.25% damage to the carry

So with every autoattack, the tank would be taking 50% damage, while the ADC would be taking 26.25% damage. This is of course assuming completely bare minimum armor - 150 armor is just base + thornmail.

Even with two lifesteal items, Bork and BT, the carry will have 30% lifesteal - which, mind you, applies AFTER resistances, meaning that 30% lifesteal is only healing for 15% of AD per attack - much, much less if the enemy has any other armor item besides Thornmail, which they they will, because thornmail + tabi + randuins is a whopping 3000 gold cheaper than BORK, BT, and LW

TigerMama GemgemJul 2, 20151 votes

Then it's bugged because I have NEVER seen it function like this against anyone except Draven and Cait.

FantasySniperJun 30, 20151 votes

It's quite necessary, as it's the only guaranteed way to counter lifesteal - a mechanic basically bred into the ADC role (both ranged and melee).

The only peeve I have about it is that it has no toggle. Sometimes it's better to not damage the enemy, and you can't exactly control that when they're the ones that decide to attack you.

MLDzXnRRRJun 30, 20151 votes

Thornmail is midgame item and discourages autoattacking you. It will be good, even op, if there was no lifesteal, which is the most broken mechanic in the game. Someone beats you and you can't even fight him, because he is healing all of your damage - the only way to kill him is with burst dmg combo, no way to 1v1 in a "fair" duel.

Lauricella3Jun 30, 20151 votes

thornmail would be so much better if it had a base damage, like say 25% + 2 * (level)

Mecha MaIphiteJun 30, 20151 votes

It's what those fuckers get for playing quinn and vayne top.