You guys don't know the difference between scaling WELL and scaling FAST

chipndip1·Aug 12, 2017·86 votes·3,839 views

: Hyper-carry champs like these? Scale WELL. Their late game power is nearly untouchable unless you have other hyper-carry champs to fight them with.

: THIS GUY? His late game potential is hurt by his own passive. He scales quickly, but the end result of that scaling is cut down because he has a damage penalty on his crits. Because of this passive, he can't even stack crit item effects without wasting a ton of gold value from crit stats. By the time you get to late game, other skirmisher picks like and will have out-scaled him...ones that actually scale well instead of quickly.

Edit: Don't think I'm saying Yasuo should be useless by late game. I'm mainly saying that you guys put every damn thing about this guy on a pedestal at all times and it's irritating. Yasuo's not some late game monster. His strongest point is during the MID game, after finishing IE/PD, landing 100% crit when your marksman only has 50%.

102 Comments

Big LincolnAug 12, 201747 votes

twitch and trist are major threats by 2 items now, i'd say they scale quickly

chipndip1Aug 12, 201719 votes

Depends on how bad you're feeding. Hyper-carry marksmen begin to embody their late game fantasies by about 3 items in most cases, but if you feed them they don't necessarily struggle through the first two.

Big LincolnAug 12, 201729 votes

no deaths and even a slight advantage but trist with just item 3031 item 3087 is capable of fucking me up big time

if these champs are going to stay as they are where they scale faster (and safer) than before then they need hard nerfs to their early to compensate

chipndip1Aug 12, 201713 votes

I mean, they can't just be USELESS in the early game or we go back to fast-scaling marksmen like Lucian being used all the time again. Their early games are already weak in comparison.

And you play juggernauts. By the time she's due to fight you, she has bonus range from her passive, right?

Big LincolnAug 12, 201720 votes

then they shouldn't hyper-scale

chipndip1Aug 12, 201710 votes

You DO realize that if you're THAT weak early, you're just walking gold to the likes of Draven, Lucian, MF, and so on, right? Unless you're now saying "The concept of hyper-carries in this game should be removed", which is also an invalid assertion, you have no claim here. Trist, Vayne, Twitch...all of them already have weaker early games than champs that don't hyper-scale, and LoL is already a snowbally game, where initial mistakes can be compounded into bigger and bigger penalties over the course of one game. You can't be THAT weak early otherwise you'll never make it to your late game fantasy...or even relevancy.

DaNinadAug 12, 20173 votes

Trist and Twitch aren't even that weak early. 5th and 7th win rate early game is pretty strong.

Imperial JapanAug 12, 20172 votes

Trist has an escape mechanism but once you cc twitch, he's dead. (Nami q, blitz pull, thresh pull, alistar combo, etc)

Sraeg2013Aug 13, 20173 votes

Considering the number of ADC champions, being a "5th or 7th" ADC in any statistic other than the number of deaths equals being bad at it.

Statically Twitch doesn't take off(break 50% winrate) until 20-25 minute. Tristana actually appears to be good at about every stage of the game except for the very very late game - winrate drops below 50% around 30-40 minute depending on the ELO.

PopcornBunniAug 12, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NgtLT5xw,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-08-12T18:12:19.438+0000)

no deaths and even a slight advantage but trist with just is capable of fucking me up big time

if these champs are going to stay as they are where they scale faster (and safer) than before then they need hard nerfs to their early to compensate

How would you recommend approaching this without gutting farm-heavy tristana? ( item 3031 item 3085 rush)?

The problem seems heavily in the items, not the characters. If you want to lower the power someone like item 3031 item 3087 trist has, that power needs reallocated elsewhere in their kit to not gut their other builds.

Cosmic WarperAug 13, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NgtLT5xw,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-08-12T18:12:19.438+0000)

no deaths and even a slight advantage but trist with just is capable of fucking me up big time

if these champs are going to stay as they are where they scale faster (and safer) than before then they need hard nerfs to their early to compensate

tristana isn't weak early? nice meme

SlythionAug 12, 20171 votes

I could see maybe Twitch (although I'd still disagree) but how do you hold that opinion with Tristana?

Big LincolnAug 12, 20179 votes

because I play against her every other game

MizayaAug 12, 20172 votes

The core build of an ADC is usually 3 items now. Though what you said used to be true during the days of old PD, when ADCs could reach the peak of their damage output with only 4 items. Twitch can still manage fine with bork and runaans. Trist starts to poke very hard with energized attacks once she reaches 3 items.

Imperial JapanAug 12, 20172 votes

Most Twitch players build IE and hurricane as much as they can

GigglesOAug 13, 20172 votes

Wait, people play games where you have more than 3 items?

Akali is SO HOTAug 12, 201724 votes

Sorry OP, but Yasuo is an unstoppable op monster that is full build when he loads into the game and has no counterplay and can't be beat and that's not just because I blow all of my abilities when he uses windwall and fight him in the middle of minion waves and only fight him when his shield is up.

DoozkuAug 12, 20172 votes

Thought you were being serious until I reread this lmao.

3ngin33rAug 13, 20173 votes

The wind almost blew this over my head

Asayake 5150glowAug 12, 201713 votes

3 items being hypercarries is kinda dumb. I think the main culprit is BT, it takes the role of defensive items and LW all in one. It gives a shield and sustain, and the sustain means it's fine for them to take a long time to kill tanks because their lifesteal is sustaining through the tanks damage.

Hypercarries like Twitch should get to that point at 5 items. The problem though is that the last two items of an ADC are super cheap and they're more used to cover other bases as other classes catch up to them. Like GA is to stop assassins from outscaling them, and LW is to stop tanks from getting too tanky. ADC's cap out on flat damage at 3 items. That's NOT a good thing.

chipndip1Aug 12, 20173 votes

Why should a hyper-carry have to wait until FIVE ITEMS to be strong? That's way too long.
Assassins are meant to be out-scaled. Their job is to be strong early and prevent others from scaling by killing them, making them miss exp and gold.
Unless you want life steal to not be a buildable stat, stop complaining about life steal as a stat.

Asayake 5150glowAug 12, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Why should a hyper-carry have to wait until FIVE ITEMS to be strong? That's way too long.

That's lategame. Hypercarries are good lategame. Wait, that's not quite right.

Hypercarries aren't 'strong' lategame.

They're fucking insane to the point of overpowered if it was any other time. Unlike early game, mid-game it's way more possible to use that power and get objectives instead of just creating a lead.

I think it's fine to take 5 items to get to 'fucking insane'.

Assassins are meant to be out-scaled. Their job is to be strong early and prevent others from scaling by killing them, making them miss exp and gold.

Since when...? Sure they scale badly due to not fit

Unless you want life steal to not be a buildable stat, stop complaining about life steal as a stat.

I want weaker lifesteal and lifesteal to not be on an 80 AD item. Spread it out. GA gives 10% lifesteal now, for a cost increase. BT is now 55 AD and 10% lifesteal with a cost decrease. Lastwhisper gets an AD increase and slight cost increase. Make late game champions thrive with a lategame build.

chipndip1Aug 12, 20173 votes

[deleted]

Asayake 5150glowAug 12, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Given how you don't even realize that assassins as a class are designed to scale poorly and to rely on early game strength to snowball hard enough to stomp out wins before that happens, I'm going to conclude that your understanding of the game on a macro level isn't up to snuff enough to arrive to an actual, logical conclusion, and thus cease this conversation here. Just note that no, it is not a reasonable idea to put life steal all over the place, nor is it a good idea to nerf hyper-carry champs to the point that they're only stronger than mid game champs at full build. To boot, it's stupid to assert that a class that has to divide its attention between crit items, which has no AD at all, and AD items should have the AD on their core items reduced by massive amounts, unless you want another "ADC IN 201X LOL" meme going around, and tanks doubling down on the notion that they'll never be slain again.

Did you just say you think hypercarries should be stronger than mid game champs _during _mid game?

Jesus fucking christ.

chipndip1Aug 12, 20172 votes

[deleted]

Asayake 5150glowAug 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

LATE GAME HAPPENS BEFORE FULL BUILD.

"Can't Hold Me Now" should be "Can't Teach Me Jack". Ciao.

What would you call full build then.

Much late game?

SociopathFriendAug 13, 20174 votes

You call full build "full build".

Late game is a time period, much like early and mid. Full build is a state of being, much like 1 item, 2 item, 3 item, etc.

The two are related, not the same.

Dextix LTAug 13, 20172 votes

Ah, an ad hominem, how quaint.

Boy, you do not seem to understand anything yourself, go play any serious moba, like Dota, then come back ok? Because what you said was a load of bull.

Assasins are not designed to scale poorly, quite the opposite, they scale insanely well, the problem is that for them to scale they have to get kills because unlike other classes they dont have good farming tools. Assasins scale insanely well because their main job during mid-late game is to take out an enemy carry and then escape, that is why they are weak early too.
Noone is talking about nefring hyper-carries here except you, what the person you responded to said is that hyper-carries reach that state too early, without having a full build, which should not happen. Again, as an example from a well balanced moba, let us take Dota and Sniper. Sniper is incredibly weak during early-mid game when having a low ammount of items. However, in lategame he is a monster due to his range and the ability to use strong items safely. As such when he reaches his full build (5-6 items, because that is what a FULL build is) he is a monster, as he should be. If he reached that ammount of power at 2-3 items (Something that mid game champs do) and did not fall off, then it means that something is wrong with the hypercarry.
I am sorry, what? Did you just say that adc's have to divert attention between crit and ad items? Did i see that right? You do realize that almost nearly EVERY CRIT ITEM has ad in its statline? Right? You do realize how easy it is with only 2 items to reach a respectable ammount of crit and ad without needing to sacrifice either? And THAT is on top of other defensive passive those items give.
"ADC in 2017" Was a meme created by SHIT adc players who could not handle adc being balanced. Adc's were getting killed when they were not protected and out of position by assasins and juggernauts (As it should be), it is a meme used by shit players that have no skill and then call the entire class bad because its not op but balanced anymore.

So here it is boy, before talking bullshit, please read up on what actual moba balance is, you would not last a day in Dota with such bullshit that you say here. Before starting ad hominem attacks boy, i suggest you to read up on what actual argumentation is too.

LeBlanc RoseAug 13, 20171 votes

Ok, here's the list of assassins with good farm/clear/waveclear; . That list is basically every assassin but .

Dextix LTAug 13, 20171 votes

Okay, let us start. No, they do not have good clearing tools. When i refer to good clearing tools i refer to tools like ziggz q or lux e. Which are actually good clearing and farm tools. But i will debunk you on case per case basis.

Akali - Correct. However, she is highly overtuned and in an op state.
Diana - Melle, only real clear ability is also her only intiation ability, high mana cost, low range.
Ekko - Correct. Highly overtuned as a champion and unbalanced.
Kassadin - Melle, the only clear ability is incredibly low damage, requires set up, low range and is his only cc ability for fighting.
Katarina - Correct. However, her assasination potential is lower than other champions and requires set up, as such she sacrifices her assasination ability for increased waveclear.
Kayn - Correct, however, again assasination potential is lower than other champions because of the waveclear, clear sacrifice for waveclear.
Kha - Melle, only real clear ability is his w, high mana cost, incredibly low range and low damage.
LeBlanc - Correct, however, assasination potential is lower and more spread out because of the ability to have waveclear, clear sacrifice for waveclear.
Nidalee - Not an assasin.
Rengar - Not an assasin.
Riven - Not an assasin.
Yasuo - Not an assasin.
Zed - The only waveclear he has puts his mobility and assasination potential out of commision, is high cooldown and comparatively low damage, makes him vulnerable.

You mistakenly think that all waveclear is GOOD waveclear, it is not.

Two of the assasins you listed are in an unbalanced state.

Other assasins sacrifice their assasination potential (As in their assasination tools are worse than others have or require a lot more set up) to have extra waveclear.

The third group sacrifices their initiation and damage tools for waveclear which makes them vulnerable to any attack for quite a long ammount of time, this also does not even fully clear a wave.

And the fourth group has very shitty waveclear that barely qualifies as that, it makes them vulnerable, is low damage, high mana cost and all in all, bad.

Compare any of these "waveclears" to any waveclear that mages have and you will see how shit these waveclears are or in cases of kat/Kayn, how much they have to sacrifice in assasination potential for them to clear anything.

LeBlanc RoseAug 14, 20171 votes

I didn't mean class A, being able to clear hordes of super minions in a few seconds. I meant a reasonable JUNGLE clear, or waveclear. Even if it is meaning superb waveclear, last time I checked LeBlanc at 2-3 items can assassinate. And is a a lane bully.

chipndip1Aug 13, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Votable JesterAug 13, 20172 votes

All of that "part of me being a nice guy is ___" really confirmed to me how much of an asshole you really are (at least right now).

Indeed I am not making an argument right now, just pointing out how obnoxious you are.

Dextix LTAug 13, 20171 votes

Because he is a fucking hyper-carry? That is how hyper-carries work?
No, they are not, assasins are supposed to COUNTER adc's. Assasins are weak early game when compared to others. They shine in mid-late game where they are supposed to take out the adc. They are not supposed to be outscaled,
By your logic if i complain about the too high number of cdr items in the game i dont want it to exist at all. No. The point is that is it too easy to get that stat while sacrificing nothing for it. Lifesteal is a defensive stat, it should not come with insane damage stats too.

Your adc loving bias is showing.

LeBlanc RoseAug 13, 20171 votes

Leblanc , Riven and Talon

Dextix LTAug 13, 20171 votes

Elaborate? What is your argument and to which point is it answering?

LeBlanc RoseAug 14, 20171 votes

Lane bully assassins. There. Early game. In fact, I actually missed a few. Evelynn Khazix and Rengar

Dextix LTAug 14, 20171 votes

Riven is not an assasin. Rengar is not an assasin (Anymore).

Kha and evelyn are not laners (They are shit at laning because of their tools).

Talon is not a lane bully after he lost his gap-closer, now he is a roamer.

The only real lane bully you listed is LB, and even that is a strech because for bullying she has to sacrifice her only gapclosing ability thus making her a vulnerable target.

LeBlanc RoseAug 14, 20171 votes

Early game assassins. Talon has THE highest first blood chance. It's about 25%. At place 4 we have Eveyln, and LeBlanc at 5th. These assassins get kills early, then if they succeed terrorize the ADC. Also. LB can return to her w starting point. See what I mean? Ik that if she gets ganked in the next 12 seconds she's screwed pre-6, but thats what vision is for.

Dextix LTAug 14, 20171 votes

YEs, they get kills early, ask yourself where they get those kills. Also, would like the source of your data.

LeBlanc RoseAug 16, 20171 votes

Talon gets his at lvl 2 with is cheese. LeBlanc is a lane bully and pokes them to about 50% hp then all ins when available. Eve, as a jungler, shows up invisible during fights and helps secure the kill. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/first-blood-stats-behind-slaughter by Rito.

MizayaAug 12, 20172 votes

BT has always been BT. An ADC with BT won't get much out of hitting a tank unless they have penetration as well, as lifesteal scales with damage dealt.

Let's take a look at Trist, for example. Her core build consists purely of AD, AS, and crit stat wise (IE, Rapidfire, Shiv). So she needs 5 items to actually get the last 2 stats, Lifesteal and Armor pen.

SpecterVonBarenAug 13, 20172 votes

The problem is that once Riot nerfs them then we go back to before where they're irrelevant because of early game carries since Riot refuses to lower damage or slow the pace of the game down.

FantasySniperAug 12, 201712 votes

Yasuo's damage penalty is more than made up for by the fact that he doesn't need more crit items. The fact that he needs half the crit items other carries need means he gets to spend more in other areas - so he could stack AD after and deal more damage anyways.

chipndip1Aug 12, 20175 votes

He has to choose between Shiv's wave clear and bonus damage and PD's safety. That's a price to pay for a weaker, yet doubled, crit chance already.
He's squishy as hell, anyway. It's not like spending in other areas is going to help that much at that late game point.

FantasySniperAug 13, 20177 votes

PD is definitively better for Yasuo than Shiv. Shiv's bonus damage is incomparable to the damage resist, MS, unit ghosting, and extra attack speed from PD. He doesn't even have any want for waveclear because his resourceless [Q], [E], and autos are already so efficient at it.

To put this "budget bonus" into perspective, this is the most common Yasuo build:

item 3046 item 3047 item 3031 item 3022 item 3072 item 3026

And this is the "typical" ADC build:

item 3031 item 3006 item 3087 item 3072 item 3036 item 3026

Yasuo's autos average 225% AD. The typical ADCs' average out to 175% AD. Yasuo can replace Frozen Mallet with Maw, Mercurial, Death's Dance, or even a Last Whisper. Yasuo also gets 50% bonus armor penetration from his ult, so he usually doesn't even need a Last Whisper. Yasuo also benefits from AS more in the form of static CDR on his [Q]. ADCs have to sacrifice lifesteal or (more likely) armor penetration to build more crit or survivability. More often than not they can't even build any CDR.

chipndip1Aug 14, 20171 votes

Don't most marksmen build 80% crit instead of 50% these days?

Outside of that, marksmen tend to bring their own steroids. Yasuo's steroid IS the doubled crit chance. Marksmen also fight at range. Yasuo fights up close. It's those subtle differences that separates Yasuo's late game power in comparison to hyper-carries. He's not BAD late, but he's not some hyper-carry monster like people make him out to be.

FantasySniperAug 14, 20172 votes

Yeah, like I said, they have to forgo something in this otherwise "rounded out" build to have that much crit. ADCs with AS synergy like Twitch, Tristana, or Vayne can skip over their BotRK or IE for another Zeal item.

The point I'm making here about Yasuo's passive is that his steroid is so powerful it lets him skip items in his build entirely. Unlike Vladimir, Ryze, or Tahm who have to build around their steroids, he's more like old Azir - who double-dips into items, hits the cap, and has no apparent loss in power budget to show for it.

Yasuo is a hyper-carry monster. Like how Kayle uses her ult, or Twitch and Vayne use their stealth, he can invalidate anyone trying to focus him with his Windwall. Even though the main method of dealing with melee carries is kiting them, you can't exactly do that with Yasuo because his ult is his main method of engage, and he'll more often than not kill you before you have a chance to escape. Not even the likes of Yi, Trynd, or Fiora are that bad because they generally have difficulty getting into range even with help.