Boards›Gameplay

Honestly, I'd be totally okay with Gunblade being nerfed, as long as it's not losing stats

Malicious Metal··63 votes·4,358 views

Big ticket items that you actually feel good building are pretty damn rare and finishing your Gunblade feels great as you get an awesome offensive tool that fulfills its niche as the hybrid powerspike.

There's a problem though when mages start building it.

They have Deathcap for their late game fantasy and they shouldn't really opt into hybrid itemisation but before you nerf the item's stats consider one(or maybe two) of the following changes to it:

-Nerf the active CD I don't even know why it was lowered to begin with but 40 seconds for such a big chunk of burst on top of a champion's usual spells is a bit overkill. Consider raising it to 60ish seconds

-Make it more expensive Add maybe 200 or so more to its combination cost

-Rework the active You shouldn't really be building Gunblade as a replacement for the dreaded Deathfire Grasp. So why not change the active a tad and make it more utility focused for hybrid champions (less/no damage, more slow) or make it a DoT?

-Shift the stats around Hybrid champions really couldn't care less about the AD and AP values being adjusted so maybe changing them around wouldn't be a bad thing (Say 60 Ad and 60 AP or something like that)

-Make it Melee only(?) probably one of the worst suggestions but a lot of the hybrid champions who use it are melee (Akali, Morde, Jax) so maybe it could be something worth considering

Or maybe it's an actual problem with the champion's kit if they have to warp their build to actually function.

Just my two cents on this issue, I really don't like it if my champion's builds get nerfed because of abuse cases. (Rip old Steraks)

136 Comments

TheNeemDream44 votes

The problem isn't that gunblade is op. It's that riot is consistently nerfing AP items. Obviously people are gonna move to new items when you make AP items suboptimal.

Squidward Dab3 votes

I just wish the ap would be higher on zhonyas and maybe another 120 ap item

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

i personally wish they'd just add blackfire and deathfire back to the game. along with will of the ancients.

Devilangel61613 votes

I to wish for WoA to come back but it would shift the meta back to Vlad Swain every game.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

spell vamp is still in the game. they can build hextec and still lifedrain. all taking it out did was mutilate the champs like morgana that needed it for their kit. if you've ever wondered why her stuns are so long... well there you go.

Mhihnj5 votes

morgana needs a better passive tho

Prestige AkaIi1 votes

Hextech Gunblade now gives "Omni-vamp" which heals 15% of all damage done and reduced for AoE. Technically not spell vamp but technicalities don't matter. Spell vamp also survives in the runes for some reason xD you can buy spell vamp quints I believe.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

it's also in the mastery trees under the red tree and the green tree.

SteelMankind7 votes

Nah. When zhonyas had 120 AP it was a core item for every AP champ. At 70 AP and a cheaper price its more of a niche item that you buy when you really need the active.

morris120 votes

When burst mages don't have enough burst they'll obviously itemize for more potential burst. While flat AP items add more damage to their rotation, Gunblade basically gives them an entire new spell.

Spoofghoul11 votes

exactly this ^

It's an entire new spell with base damage and ap ratio

it's what people have been doing since the ap value nerfs, they look for actives/passive to increase their ap ratio's and kit burst with items like item 3146 item 3030 item 3152 item 3100 item 3285 item 3115

Obviously not all these are going to be built together but look at it this way

if i built gunblade i get an extra 250 base damage and 30% ap ratio I already have TLD for 180 base damage and 10% ap ratio and 30% ad ratio(gunblade gives AD so synergy is there) I now grab ludens for extra 100 base damage and 10% ap ratio I then grab Lich bane for 75% base ad base damage and 50% ap ratio

I just gained 100% ap ratio's 30% ad ratio's in my kit from just the items themsleves thats 260 ap and 40 ad therefore i gained 272 additional damage on top of 75% base ad lets make that 75 damage for simplicity sake, as well as 180, 100 and 250 damage

overal i gained 877 additional burst from item actives/passives and keystone

Thats insane

i now also get to grab 3 more items all of which are going to increase my damage on my actives/passives

an extra deathcap for example will increase damage at this point by 253 on my actives/passives let's also add a voidtsaff

and now im dealing an extra 1238 burst damage with a build like

item 3020 item 3146 item 3100 item 3285 item 3089 item 3135

mages complain about having less ap but gaining these amounts of extra burst they really can't complain

they are dealing upwards of 3k burst sometimes as high has 3,5/4k

land your stun dump everything on their face and insta delete people

Wheatloaf3 votes

In the case of protobelt, it was added as a mage mobility option, but it's only ever bought for the extra burst (and because Vlad really likes its stats). It needs at least some work done, at this point.

Weasel Kensei8 votes

When you say

mages complain about having less ap but gaining these amounts of extra burst they really can't complain

With a build that looks like:

item 3020 item 3146 item 3100 item 3285 item 3089 item 3135

It tells me you dont really play mages.

First, not enough mana; 250 from Lich B... Pretty much every mage has to build some mana and mana sustain. 250 isnt enough, and it offers no sustain for mana.

Second, only 10% CDR... again on Lich B. I guess not being able to spam any of your spells will help since your going to be mana starved.

Third, no HP, mages are squishy, and they can be killed very quickly. Its why many of their items come with HP, so they can live long enough to take a hit or two to get a rotation off.

Fourth, that build will put most mages into a range they arnt safe at. Coupled with the above point that it offers no additional survivability the nesesity to get close enough for Gunblade and Lich B. aa proc will get them killed. If it will get them killed to get that close they cant make use of it.

So you put together items for a mage that will offer them not enough mana, not enough CDR, no health, and requires them to put themselves to close to the action and say they cant complain... OK, I LOL'd.

A significant portion of the build (to get extra burst) revolves around Lich B. Its not a good item on most mages. "But Ziggs he duz eet" Yes, and Ziggs has an aa that burns down towers hard, and Lich B. works on towers, it works for him to siege faster. He isnt using it on people as much as towers.The main reason you dont see Lich B. on most mages is because their AA is just for killing minions and hitting towers. Lich B. is for AP assassins/fighters like Fizz & Diana.

Cosmic Warper3 votes

{quoted}

exactly this ^

It's an entire new spell with base damage and ap ratio

it's what people have been doing since the ap value nerfs, they look for actives/passive to increase their ap ratio's and kit burst with items like item 3146 item 3030 item 3152 item 3100 item 3285 item 3115

Obviously not all these are going to be built together but look at it this way

if i built gunblade i get an extra 250 base damage and 30% ap ratio I already have TLD for 180 base damage and 10% ap ratio and 30% ad ratio(gunblade gives AD so synergy is there) I now grab ludens for extra 100 base damage and 10% ap ratio I then grab Lich bane for 75% base ad base damage and 50% ap ratio

I just gained 100% ap ratio's 30% ad ratio's in my kit from just the items themsleves thats 260 ap and 40 ad therefore i gained 272 additional damage on top of 75% base ad lets make that 75 damage for simplicity sake, as well as 180, 100 and 250 damage

overal i gained 877 additional burst from item actives/passives and keystone

Thats insane

i now also get to grab 3 more items all of which are going to increase my damage on my actives/passives

an extra deathcap for example will increase damage at this point by 253 on my actives/passives let's also add a voidtsaff

and now im dealing an extra 1238 burst damage with a build like

item 3020 item 3146 item 3100 item 3285 item 3089 item 3135

mages complain about having less ap but gaining these amounts of extra burst they really can't complain

they are dealing upwards of 3k burst sometimes as high has 3,5/4k

land your stun dump everything on their face and insta delete people

Good luck with that build on any mage not named leblanc. You need morello's for mana or else you will be useless if you can't burst someone down due to mana issues and lack of cdr.

GrReaper9619 votes

To be fair since so many AP items have lost their AP (item 3116 item 3001 item 3157 ) its no wonder people get it

Unvictus6 votes

I can't specify this enough! Not to mention AD is going up on a lot of items in Midseason. Adaptive Helm is getting added so dps mages get nerfed and AP champs now lose the option of building guardian angel. The constant nerfs to AP over the seasons is just unreal.

Samflash31 votes

I still think Rylai's should build out of 2 blasting wands instead of a Needlessly Large Rod + Book.

RisenDarkKnight14 votes

Rylais doesn't build out of needlessly large rod, and has less AP than 2 blasting wands.

Big Lincoln17 votes

what if the active played up on it being a gun_blade_ and had some alternate effect when used in melee

mages would probably still be using deathcap often if we hadn't been steadily removing AP from items and AP ratios from mages

SoyUnPrededor3 votes

Going off the idea, what if we separate the damage and slow portion, with an additional mark effect.

Something like an active range the same as now that does 25% damage it does currently, but applies the slow, and marks the target for a few seconds. If you melee auto attack that target while they are marked you deal damage equal to the live value, and maybe ignore x% of their resists on the second chunk of damage, helping hybrid champs out a lil' bit on the damage side to make up for it being riskier and backloaded?

Dunno if the resist ignoring part is even needed, but I wanted a way to make the damage more valuable because it now has a much larger risk associated with it, and actual counter play beyond not getting within range, but at the same time, I don't think the damage value itself should be increased much if at all.

Skorch1 votes

Is the only thing you think about juggernauts?

You are forgetting the gun of _gun_blade.

You just made Gunblade a pure AD item for more burst.

Big Lincoln7 votes

do explain to me how "what if it did something different in melee range" is in any way related to juggernauts or making it a "pure AD item"

Skorch1 votes

Play on words, you were talking about the BLADE part of Gunblade, but it IS a GUN-BLADE so it would have both Melee and Range portions of an active. And Mages dont use Guns, so why have it be AP?

Glory ln Death7 votes

Because Hextech is magical.

Skorch1 votes

And it comes full circle

Glory ln Death1 votes

You know, when you think about it, it's a Hextech Gun-Blade. That's one part magic from "Hextech" and two parts physical from the "Gun" and the "Blade". But its stats are one part physical (40 AD) and two parts magical (80AP, 2x the AD)! Shouldn't it be reversed?

Skorch1 votes

You're right

Glory ln Death3 votes

https://m.popkey.co/f568e6/64GJw_s-200x150.gif

Cosmic Warper2 votes

{quoted}

Play on words, you were talking about the BLADE part of Gunblade, but it IS a GUN-BLADE so it would have both Melee and Range portions of an active. And Mages dont use Guns, so why have it be AP?

Are you really trying to use real world physical logic in this game? Seriously?

Tyrone Lannister6 votes

I know that Kat, LB and Akali build it. What other mages build it, just curious?

Malicious Metal12 votes

Currently Leblanc is "abusing" it as well as Ahri starting to pick it up more often.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

I can't think of any ranged champs that should be building it. For once, making it melee only doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.

Sozan522 votes

Teemo Kayle.

Possibly Kennen and Twisted Fate too.

Unvictus2 votes

Yes, but these champs don't rely on gunblade in their typical build, especially not TF and Kennen. Both Teemo and Kayle have plenty of other items that go into their core build that gunblade isn't a necessity, nor would they be heartbroken if it became melee only. Meanwhile there are plenty of melee champs that rely on gunblade as a core item and build it almost every game (Kat, Akali, Morde, etc). If they wouldn't want to commit to making it melee only maybe they could make the active weaker for ranged champs, like a lesser slow or a lower base damage.

Frightning5 votes

item 3146 is core af on hybrid Kayle. Which imo is one of her best build paths: item 3115item 3006item 3124item 3146

Toru Itai11 votes

Gunblade is the only item that heals you for your onhit damage, and lots of hybrid chams have onhits.

DunkinNoobs8 votes

{quoted}

item 3146 is core af on hybrid Kayle. Which imo is one of her best build paths: item 3115item 3006item 3124item 3146

That's garbage and no one who plays Kayle seriously builds gunblade.

AirKingNeo1 votes

As a 300,000 mastery Kayle main I can tell you that you are very wrong.

item 3115 item 3006 item 3124 item 3085 is Kayle's core.

Gunblade is situational.

Frightning1 votes

I went ahead and tested this versus my build in the Practice Tool. Some interesting data: -It does not appear that the splash is applied by the bolts, as I suspected. That said, I did 2 tests: Test 1: Single target DPS Test 2: Splash+Runaan's bolts v just Splash (my build)

For both tests, I set myself to level 14, and maxed E, Q, and had 2 points in W and R, I only used E for the tests however. I would stand in melee range and DPS the target dummy, running threw a few cycles of the entire E duration and brief remainder of CD to get a good average DPS, for the 2nd test, I had 3 dummies right next to each other so that I could compare splash as well.

Findings: Single target DPS: For your build was about 550, for my build, it was about 500. So you have a 10% advantage in single target DPS. Splash: In the splash test, main target DPS mirror single target DPS for both builds (this shows that item 3085 bolts do not apply Righteous Fury splash), the Secondary targets would take both Runaan's bolts and splash from the main target. Total DPS to them was about 500 with your build, and about 250 with mine (just splash). This means that with your build, DPS from Runaan's bolts and from splash was about 50-50 to secondary targets (provided, ofc, that they are within the 150 radius of the main target).

Conclusion: Although your build does possess higher DPS, it's only by about 10%, and you have no healing what so ever in the item build. I have 15% healing from all damage (1/3 effective on AoE damage), which means that I would've been healing approximately 75 HP/S due to my DPS against the target dummy. Without even factoring in armor and magic resist, this is enough that my build would win a duel with yours (your effective DPS if I had 0 resists would be less than mine, and I actually had about 70 ar and 30 mr). This, while also having more AP, and hence better damage with Q, better healing and MS from W, and the synergy of being able to healing from my DPS while ulting myself (plus the handy active, which adds to my burst, slows, and also heals me for 15% of its damage). All things put together, I think the numbers and tests came out pretty strongly in my build's favor. That said, there's no reason not to still consider item 3085 as 5th item after item 3146.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Ok so Hurricane gives 10% more DPS, faster rageblade stacking (which is VERY VERY NEEDED) and massive AoE damage.

Need I explain more?

Frightning1 votes

The conditions in which your build actually outperforms mine are quite specific and not necessarily all that common in a real game. (how often do multiple important targets stay within 150 range of each other when you are DPSing them down? Also, I didn't factor in higher Q dmg, or greater W heal (and MS) amount that my build provides, nor the benefits of the active on gunblade. I suspect some of the DPS difference against a single target would be recouped, and, the higher burst is favorable when dealing with squishy enemies. Reality is that both builds are good (and getting both item 3085 and item 3146 is a fine idea anyways (and still leaves the last item slot for item 3026)

Silver Singed6 votes

Gunblade on teemo has been core for a while now.

SH Azykan1 votes

item 3145 is too strong on teemo to ignore, he only builds gunblade because it is the best upgrade path on him out of the 3 options.

Silver Singed8 votes

Lol. Okay. Are we just ignoring that teemo is one of like 3 champions in the game who can build hybrid, and also that this is one of two hybrid items that exist?

Teemo builds it because he needs sustain just like any other Marksman and this allows him to sustain off of poison and shrooms on minion waves.

It Hertz When IP9 votes

Plus the active is nice for peel, considering that his only mobility is a MS buff.

koshkyra1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silver Singed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ngdx7qEJ,comment-id=000400000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-17T05:39:04.930+0000)

Lol. Okay. Are we just ignoring that teemo is one of like 3 champions in the game who can build hybrid, and also that this is one of two hybrid items that exist?

Teemo builds it because he needs sustain just like any other Marksman and this allows him to sustain off of poison and shrooms on minion waves.

Im gonna try to list champions who can go hybrid:

Evelynn, Akali, Jax, Kata, Teemo, Kayle

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

You can't effectively build Katarina or Akali hybrid. They have hybrid scalings, but they're not hybrids. In fact AD Core on Akali is not even recommended as she lacks the scalings.

The primary 3 are Kayle, Teemo and Evelynn. Followed by Corki and Jax.

koshkyra3 votes

{quoted}

You can't effectively build Katarina or Akali hybrid. They have hybrid scalings, but they're not hybrids. In fact AD Core on Akali is not even recommended as she lacks the scalings.

The primary 3 are Kayle, Teemo and Evelynn. Followed by Corki and Jax.

I was right with evelynn? yay...

I dont think corki can go hybrid based off the fact that he can only go to one extreme and stay there. He can go AP or AD, but not both at the same time as that would limit the power of something.

(Ex: AP would limit his AA power, AD would limit his W powerr)

DunkinNoobs2 votes

No one who mains any of those champions builds gunblade, and the only one where it would be reasonable is Teemo. The rest all have far better options.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

Corki

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Malicious Metal

The one buff Karthus NEEDS
Gameplay126 comments
464
votes
Viktor's Patch 6.9 entry shows that whoever worked on Vik has no idea who he truly is >_>
Gameplay224 comments
414
votes
I have achieved my final form!
Memes & Games62 comments
320
votes
There's actually an ingenious way to solve the whole FQC and Ap CDR crisis
Gameplay223 comments
280
votes
A champion should NEVER be made more clunky/less satisfying to play (Regarding Viktor's PBE changes)
Gameplay140 comments
279
votes
Malphite will be the best Camille counter
Memes & Games60 comments
257
votes