Regardless of balance, strong actives won't fix Support. They'll make it worse.

chipndip1·Dec 28, 2016·22 votes·1,343 views

Yeah, I know. I'm PROBABLY gonna get downvote peppered and ignored, but honestly, support is becoming more about your build than your champ. In every other role, how you play is decided largely by your champ, and your build reflects the approach you're taking with that champ. In the support role specifically, when you're building support items, how you play is decided largely by your build. There's less emphasis on the fun of playing your champ and more emphasis on your Locket/Redemption combo, whereas last season it was Locket/Crucible. Support is being shoved into this really defensive, reactive, campy style of play where you don't really go out and interact with your opponents like everyone else does. You're just waiting around with your Locket and Redemption, playing that same 1 note.

I'm not saying that support champs or champs played in the role need to be as strong as carries on a lower budget. I'm saying that we need more items that emphasize the champions themselves and less generally busted actives like Locket and Redemption. More of this simply encourages making more insanely potent actives rather than actually tackling the quality of the game play in the role itself.

31 Comments

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 28, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I know. I'm PROBABLY gonna get downvote peppered and ignored, but honestly, support is becoming more about your build than your champ. In every other role, how you play is decided largely by your champ, and your build reflects the approach you're taking with that champ. In the support role specifically, when you're building support items, how you play is decided largely by your build. There's less emphasis on the fun of playing your champ and more emphasis on your Locket/Redemption combo, whereas last season it was Locket/Crucible. Support is being shoved into this really defensive, reactive, campy style of play where you don't really go out and interact with your opponents like everyone else does. You're just waiting around with your Locket and Redemption, playing that same 1 note.

I'm not saying that support champs or champs played in the role need to be as strong as carries on a lower budget. I'm saying that we need more items that emphasize the champions themselves and less generally busted actives like Locket and Redemption. More of this simply encourages making more insanely potent actives rather than actually tackling the quality of the game play in the role itself.

I don't see a problem with this, though I disagree. Support is not anymore item centric than the adcs they are supporting for. Hence why these champs thrive in duolanes to begin with. But yes, i disagree with this. What you are saying almost suggests that it doesnt matter if you pick leona or sona into draven + thresh as long as you build the right items. This isnt true.

But I like having all the actives and I like the campy style though support is really only as campy as you and the ones you support make it. When I play leona, if my adc has any balls I am going to camp your ass under your tower. By Urf, I'll show you how passive i am once you're dead. I'll dive you in your nexus before first towerfall m8. Sometimes I dive in the middle of my dive, diveception. If my lane partner has balls they are going straight to the walls, level 2 stage right. Wont even need an item active for it either. Sightstone hp will do me just fine. Cant do that as sona though...

chipndip1Dec 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I don't see a problem with this, though I disagree. Support is not anymore item centric than the adcs they are supporting for. Hence why these champs thrive in duolanes to begin with. But yes, i disagree with this. What you are saying almost suggests that it doesnt matter if you pick leona or sona into draven + thresh as long as you build the right items. This isnt true.

That's exactly what I'm saying and that's exactly the case. You don't NEED to pick Leona or Sona into that lane. Either is perfectly fine. Also, you aren't getting the point. Adcs build items based on who they are. Support itemization eclipses who you are.

But I like having all the actives and I like the campy style though support is really only as campy as you and the ones you support make it. When I play leona, if my adc has any balls I am going to camp your ass under your tower. By Urf, I'll show you how passive i am once you're dead. I'll dive you in your nexus before first towerfall m8. Sometimes I dive in the middle of my dive, diveception. If my lane partner has balls they are going straight to the walls, level 2 stage right. Wont even need an item active for it either. Sightstone hp will do me just fine. Cant do that as sona though...

You know, all this white-knighty, extra flowery, hyperbolized, romanticized fluff talk is nice, but notice how you're 9/10 still building Locket and Redemption rather than anything that'd better fit what you'd expect on someone like Leona. Notice how the boards don't even say you're playing the role right if you pick someone like Brand or Zyra, or opt to or want to use a build that leans more towards damage dealing. Notice how the only things people think supports are meant to do is protecting teammates and warding. No, the role isn't as "diverse" as you think it is. That's a lie supports tell themselves so people don't complain. Maybe to keep the role niche so they won't have to be their secondary pick ever.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That's exactly what I'm saying and that's exactly the case. You don't NEED to pick Leona or Sona into that lane. Either is perfectly fine. Also, you aren't getting the point. Adcs build items based on who they are. Support itemization eclipses who you are.

I get the point, I just dont have a problem with that even though i disagree with the idea.

You know, all this white-knighty, extra flowery, hyperbolized, romanticized fluff talk is nice, but notice how you're 9/10 still building Locket and Redemption rather than anything that'd better fit what you'd expect on someone like Leona.

I don't remember building redemption... ever. Not in any actual game. I may have once or twice but there was something I didnt like about it. I may have gotten it in an aram game once. I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

As for locket, I just like that item alot. I liked it before but now I like it even more. I should build it on some toplaners in fact.

Notice how the boards don't even say you're playing the role right if you pick someone like Brand or Zyra, or opt to or want to use a build that leans more towards damage dealing.

Said who? Lots of people acknowledge that you can go mage support. They arent really supports but they can fill the role

Notice how the only things people think supports are meant to do is protecting teammates and warding.

again, most people have terrible ideas of how anything works. Some even think you send two bot because "the tank has to go top cuz durrrrrr"

But even if you go brand or zyra you should still get your fucking sightstone or tell the team that you are too busy being an tilted asshole to do so. Outside of that I honestly don't give many fucks what you build as long as you are making a positive difference

No, the role isn't as "diverse" as you think it is. That's a lie supports tell themselves so people don't complain. Maybe to keep the role niche so they won't have to be their secondary pick ever.

It feels pretty diverse to me. My major issue with the support role is that its inflexible. If you don't build to deal damage as leona you can't really change your mind when the game starts. Once you start getting exp its too late to swap lanes and stuff too unless you take the adc with you.

But then i've also bothered to actually explore alternative solutions to problems so I can bullshit my way through the role without having to try and cheese through by going straight damage and being the sole reason we lose.

One of the biggest issues with supports Ive noticed though is that with a weak team it is difficult to even have any fun. With a stronger team I will gank mid as support then come back bot and fuck the enemy lane with my level advantaged lane partner or i might help the jungler invade and ward to locate the enemy jungle while taking a bit of the experience by standing closer to the mob they kill.

Another item I'm actually interested in trying on leona now is item 3142 or something along these lines with the sole intent of shitting on specific midlaners using fast ganking. item 3800 could actually stack with this but doesn't give damage and is more costly to build in some cases depending on what sort of match it is. But if you build that then most likely you will want to get another damage item like leona's old favorite item 3078

Glory ln DeathDec 29, 20162 votes

Jungle camps only give XP to the person who kills them... You can't soak XP from the jungler.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 29, 20161 votes

If that's true its a relatively recent change.

If you stand within 400 range you can take some jungler exp last I checked. 100% of the gold goes to the killer though

Glory ln DeathDec 29, 20161 votes

Edited: the "killer only" experience change happened during the MYMU. Junglers were getting messed up too often during leashes for their initial clears, and "buddy jungling" in the LCS was becoming an issue.

chipndip1Dec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I get the point, I just dont have a problem with that even though i disagree with the idea.

So you don't have an issue with metas where items are so strong they define entire roles? Cereal stop doing that thing you do where you're just contrary to everything regardless of logic, please...for one moment.

I don't remember building redemption... ever. Not in any actual game. I may have once or twice but there was something I didnt like about it. I may have gotten it in an aram game once. I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

"You" wasn't used literally here. More like "the general person".

As for locket, I just like that item alot. I liked it before but now I like it even more. I should build it on some toplaners in fact.

Leona's a Vanguard. There's not a single tank support item that really underlines the notion that she's really meant to be in the mix with enemies more than in the back line. She literally SAYS "Stay at the vanguard". The front line.

Said who? Lots of people acknowledge that you can go mage support. They arent really supports but they can fill the role

You just said it yourself. "They really aren't supports". They aren't traditional support picks. They're still support picks. If they aren't, Leona and Naut aren't.

again, most people have terrible ideas of how anything works. Some even think you send two bot because "the tank has to go top cuz durrrrrr"

Guess you're proving that here...as usual.

It feels pretty diverse to me. My major issue with the support role is that its inflexible. If you don't build to deal damage as leona you can't really change your mind when the game starts. Once you start getting exp its too late to swap lanes and stuff too unless you take the adc with you.

On what grounds is it diverse? Everyone builds the same shit more than half the time and everyone fulfills the same role, too. If you try not to, now you're a "support" and not a support. (You can't deny this you just did this yourself)

One of the biggest issues with supports Ive noticed though is that with a weak team it is difficult to even have any fun. With a stronger team I will gank mid as support then come back bot and fuck the enemy lane with my level advantaged lane partner or i might help the jungler invade and ward to locate the enemy jungle while taking a bit of the experience by standing closer to the mob they kill.

It's easier to do anything when you're strong. That's how the game is designed. None of this addresses anything about what I've said, though, so don't bring it up.

Another item I'm actually interested in trying on leona now is or something along these lines with the sole intent of shitting on specific midlaners using fast ganking. could actually stack with this but doesn't give damage and is more costly to build in some cases depending on what sort of match it is. But if you build that then most likely you will want to get another damage item like leona's old favorite

Paragraphs like these are why everyone has decided to not take you seriously.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So you don't have an issue with metas where items are so strong they define entire roles? Cereal stop doing that thing you do where you're just contrary to everything regardless of logic, please...for one moment.

There was nothing contrary about it until you started passively whining. I've got an opinion, fucking deal with it.

And no, what I don't have an issue with.. in the most accurate wording possible.. is the following

"A meta where supports are champions that abuse the living shit out of item actives" In fact I wish there were more reasons to have an active on every single item I buy as support.

If you can't make the role fun then dammit give me more bells and whistles!

"You" wasn't used literally here. More like "the general person".

Even so, the odds of the person you talking to not even fitting the demographic you place the general person to gives meaning to the fact that i do not in fact use it. Maybe I should but redemption simply doesnt catch my eye when I shop. Though recently I've only played a few supports, maybe that's why.

Leona's a Vanguard. There's not a single tank support item that really underlines the notion that she's really meant to be in the mix with enemies more than in the back line. She literally SAYS "Stay at the vanguard". The front line.

item 3050 :3

You just said it yourself. "They really aren't supports". They aren't traditional support picks. They're still support picks. If they aren't, Leona and Naut aren't.

Leona really isnt a support, she's a tank. Nautilus actually just isnt a support

Lux is a support who isnt actually that great in the support role You might consider anivia and orianna to be supports that arent very good at the support role.

Guess you're proving that here...as usual.

my later idea might be bad. I really don't know. But its more something to have in my pocket when leona starts dealing the damage shits get real :3

but no its probably not practical

On what grounds is it diverse? Everyone builds the same shit more than half the time and everyone fulfills the same role, too. If you try not to, now you're a "support" and not a support. (You can't deny this you just did this yourself)

Because a sightstone on leona does not mean the same thing as a sightstone on sona

When sona gets her sightstone you get a moment's rest because she isnt going straight for the damage When leona gets her sightstone you best squeeze them buttcheeks now that she's slightly tankier and knows your jungler isnt coming to help when you drop the soap that she slapped out of your hand.

It's easier to do anything when you're strong. That's how the game is designed. None of this addresses anything about what I've said, though, so don't bring it up.

Its relevant though. When I play ahri and I'm not ahead i still get to play. When I play support as anyone and I'm not ahead then alot of times I'm either not playing or I'm doing mundane things without much chance for choice or creativity.

Paragraphs like these are why everyone has decided to not take you seriously.

Paragraphs like these are also why some people don't give up on trying things like support I've been told over the past several years.

chipndip1Dec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There was nothing contrary about it until you started passively whining. I've got an opinion, fucking deal with it.

And no, what I don't have an issue with.. in the most accurate wording possible.. is the following

"A meta where supports are champions that abuse the living shit out of item actives" In fact I wish there were more reasons to have an active on every single item I buy as support.

If you can't make the role fun then dammit give me more bells and whistles!

On what planet is making a crap ton of actives a smart idea?
Once again, the point is that if those items define your value more than your champion, that logic is backwards.

Even so, the odds of the person you talking to not even fitting the demographic you place the general person to gives meaning to the fact that i do not in fact use it. Maybe I should but redemption simply doesnt catch my eye when I shop. Though recently I've only played a few supports, maybe that's why.

I mean, you tend to say/do things contrary to the norm solely because you're you at this point. The fact that you don't abuse the combo probs means more people than I thought do, if anything.

:3

"I'm Leona. I was a solo laner shoved into supporting. I stay at the front line, disabling and disrupting key targets so my team can follow up. When I do this, CerealBoxofDoom says I should build an item designed to link back line enchanters to back line marksmen."

You don't think when you to respond to anything, do you?

Leona really isnt a support, she's a tank.

YOU DON'T THINK WHEN YOU RESPOND TO ANYTHING APPARENTLY.

Nautilus actually just isnt a support

Just keeps on going...

Lux is a support who isnt actually that great in the support role

...I fucking give up here. I'm done.

I'm sorry, but I fucking can't.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

On what planet is making a crap ton of actives a smart idea?

There is nothing inherently unhealthy about it

Once again, the point is that if those items define your value more than your champion, that logic is backwards.

By that same logic vayne is worthless without her items. My opinion on champion value is just as valid as your "opinion" which refers to a type of subjective statement.

I mean, you tend to say/do things contrary to the norm solely because you're you at this point. The fact that you don't abuse the combo probs means more people than I thought do, if anything.

What you are saying is not the norm no matter how many times you invoke the "everybody"

You have an opinion on a single subject, I have my own. I'm not being contrarian by disagreeing with a single subject and I'm more likely to say anything if I feel the need to disagree for some reason which is why I may seem contrarian if you're just looking at certain posts.

"I'm Leona. I was a solo laner shoved into supporting. I stay at the front line, disabling and disrupting key targets so my team can follow up. When I do this, CerealBoxofDoom says I should build an item designed to link back line enchanters to back line marksmen."

What if i told you the target doesnt have to be a backline marksman... or that items are sometimes used for something other than what they were designed for. Or better yet, that you can reassign the target of the item every so often.

You don't think when you to respond to anything, do you?

You don't think when you act like a hypocrite do you

YOU DON'T THINK WHEN YOU RESPOND TO ANYTHING APPARENTLY.

said the hypocrite

Just keeps on going...

Yes, and im fucking right too. At least in some context but I'm sure that wont stop you

...I fucking give up here. I'm done.

I'm sorry, but I fucking can't.

You see what you want to see. Stop being a fucking drama queen

Ok sure but whyDec 28, 20161 votes

Yeah, but Vayne ain't buying six item 3153 just for their active uses.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 28, 20161 votes

she's also not buying 6 of those because she wants to win. Maybe because she's cheesing someone but not to win

chipndip1Dec 28, 20162 votes

You're missing the point again.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 29, 20161 votes

I'm not missing the point. I'm just not accepting any strawman that doesnt fit my argument.

He could also say that sona isn't buying 6 item 3003 or item 3027 for the active or passive

All 3 are shit builds that suggest that a champ scales well with something which is great and all but it doesnt really make an important point in the context of the discussion

chipndip1Dec 29, 20162 votes

The point, regardless of hyperbole, is that Vayne doesn't buy Ruined King because it's Ruined King. She buys it because she's Vayne. Support itemization is currently "Am I any support ever? Better buy Locket/Redemption!" It doesn't matter who you are. It matters what the item is. That's backwards.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 29, 20161 votes

Karma does the immortality thing Sona does the burst combo thing, doesnt need either item to be honest Nami this one can go item 3285 just because it scales with her passive and kit style though you'd probably only be able to afford it if you're ahead which goes back to the supports have no fallback fun thing.

Really what support needs is just coupons lol

chipndip1Dec 29, 20161 votes

Lich Bane Nami?

You may actually be the first person I blacklist on the boards...solely from how insufferably little you know about anything you try to discuss balance-wise.

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 29, 20161 votes

who said anything about lich bane

Maybe something changed but last I checked Nami's damage was not something to scoff at.

I find it ironic you talk about damage supports like brand then turn around like a hypocrite and call me insufferable for mentioning that some other champ could build damage.

Yes, lich bane does scale with nami's passive in a way but ludens does it in a much better and safer way that makes it easier for her to push a lane should she need to. Or to gank another lane with some burst damage which is something I've been very interested in building around as I mentioned before.

PPPPPPPPPPPP270Dec 28, 20164 votes

I felt like we have been at a point where supports would buy normal items back in season 4. Not sure why that didn't come back.

In terms of the support champion pool usability. It's better than the other lanes and roles right now. I can't say anything wrong with Bard, Thresh, or a Janna pick any time of the week. Yes there can be better choices at times but team comp is always fucked up in ranked regardless of rank.

Supports right now are too defensive and the offensive ones are just mages buying normal items on a smaller budget.

chipndip1Dec 29, 20161 votes

It's REALLY hard trying to get anyone to realize this, but I also realized that support item effects that are good are simply too good. It's gotten to the point where nearly anyone can just build Locket/Redemption and be fine, if not plain strong. Support needs more emphasis on the play patterns and styles of the champs in it, and less generally powerful actives.

VallalanDec 29, 20163 votes

I agree completely. shield/heal items are simply too strong. they need to have trade offs. right now they are gold efficient without their busted actives. you should have a trade off for the actives. right now redemption is mostly gold efficient as is locket. nerf the base stats so for one only supports will build them. right now you have junglers building redemption and sometimes locket.

overall though its that there are TOO many ways to stack shields/heals.

I mean lets take karma/janna/soraka.

karma ult's her shield on everyone, pops locket, and redemption all at once in a team fight. while you can't hit them through the massive shields through a few seconds, any damage you do will be immediately fully healed up off the redemption right after.

I have had games as support karma recently where my ADC is 100% caught out by 3 people and it is impossible to kill them through my shields.

Janna can ult with redemption, locket and her own shield on the caught out member and no way that person is dying. Soraka...dont even get me started.

right now its too easy to save people and its even an interesting decsion on when or how to save someone. Is there a fight? Pop all actives or even most of them.

is someone caught out? pop actives.

there's nothing interesting about it.

5000000000000000Dec 29, 20162 votes

Actives being too strong is definitely an issue, but not the real issue, imo. Right now, the top 3 pick rate champions for the mid lane are Lux, Orianna, and Ahri, and they usually build the same items ( item 3165 item 3020 item 3285 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 ) with slightly different orders (this is Lux's order).

But even with same items, those 3 play very differently (well, I guess they all stay back and kite, but beyond that). For supports, item actives mean just another spell to use. So instead of 5 abilities (including passive, which are sometimes a core part of a support's kit), they have like 8 (gold income item active, Locket, Redemption). And two of those are pretty much mandatory and common on all supports right now. When a position shares 25% of the entire kit, they're bound to play similarly. Support itemization should really make a support's spells more effective, instead of just giving them the same abilities.

resumedDec 29, 20161 votes

im drunkposting but I HATE THE SUPPORT ITEMISATION

three items are so strong. knights vow redemption and locket are just fucking ridiculous. you're going to buy all 3 of them (save for a few exceptions) and the order in which you buy them simply depends on the champ youre playing

we need those 3 items toned down slightly (maybe not knights vow) and the other items buffed to bring them up to par

think of item 3050 , i seriously have not seen, or even CONSIDERED building this item since redemption and knights vow have came out. it's passive was already nearly completely useless and the new items have just put the final nails in the coffin. also now it doesnt even have a niche anymore now that every ad is running triple crit (as opposed to arpen). it seriously just needs a new passive, the stats it offers are amazing but the shit tier passive kills it.

and honestly? i feel that item 3174 will be joining soon if its passive is not majorly buffed. so little ap, so little healing. athenes heals less than redemption, gives you almost 0 increased damage thanks to the poor scalings on supports, as opposed to redemption which deals 10% true damage. its just garbage by comparison. i think the only person that will still build this next patch is MAYBE sona?

not sure about item 3504 . and i KINDA SORTA wanna skip the gold generating item so i can build redemption earlier

HeroquetDec 31, 20161 votes

item 3174 Still core on Sona since you have the lowest cooldowns and the right amount of damage to use it. This is to heals what sheen is to autoattacks. Lich bane is a second power cord worth of damage, athene is a second heal. I think Karma / Lulu can use it too, not sure about others. Now we just need a way to allow more supports to use that (generate stacks for buffed alllies or debuffed / cc'ed ennemies?) and it will be great. Yet the other supports already have item 3222 , and since that +20% shield is worth 120 ap of scaling on them...

item 3050 I read someone say that this should become an active, not a passive charge-stacking item, or at least make the buff an active once you have enough charges. And i think he's right, it would be quite fun to megaboost someone on command. But as of now i never buy it yeah.

item 3504 is in my opinion a must rush on anything with a shield / heal ; it's 2 longswords on-hit (700 g, but not affecting spells, people have lower mr than armor all game long so it's better), almost 2 daggers worth of AS (600g), + on hit heal you can compare to a very early bloodthirster + a huge bunch of stats for any enchanter, including the legendary +10% ms bonus (every class but supports has several + ms items, and that's before the in-built dashes - blinks).

If you can apply that shit to several people, grab it asap. You hear people say it's useless if you don't have 2-3 auto-attacks reliant teamates. I say ~~fuck that, i need more ms~~ everybody use auto-attacks on stuff like towers, baron and dragon, and it really adds up nicely. Invisible power. Same for windspeaker actually.

Redemption looks broken because it's flashy and all, yeah. But you can still win your games by improving your champ ability with the right items.

Just one question, please. Can you explain why you think Zeke's has some amazing stats? I can't see any support who would like 30 armor and 50 ap. Just curious.

resumedDec 31, 20161 votes

I can't see any support who would like 30 armor and 50 ap

what about 250 mana and 10% cdr

Nami Janna Morgana Zilean Bard to just name SOME. (this item even used to be a late buy for all of them at some point)

and these ones USED TO pick it up when they were snowballing, but not anymore Leona Thresh Taric

meowwow7Dec 29, 20161 votes

people complaining about redemption and locket and here i am as Sona linking a item 3050 to a pure damage Yasuo and watching him 1v5 with the charged buff

chipndip1Dec 29, 20162 votes

Link an item that gives ap and crit to someone that's usually at 100% crit at 2 items...

LiofaDec 29, 20161 votes

If I hear "omg don't nerf broken shit cause i'm finally having fun as supp now supp is finally fun now xd" one more time I'm gonna pop a vein, so fucking stupid.

chipndip1Dec 29, 20161 votes

Fully agreed. There's a difference between "defence" and "blatantly ridiculous".

meowwow7Dec 30, 20161 votes

the yas was a bit tilted because he didn't get mid so we had a yas adc and he went for blood thirster, a scimmy, berserker greaves, a guardian angel, frozen mallet, and for some reason trinity force so i wanted to see if the crit bonus from zeke's was doubled from his passive

chipndip1Dec 30, 20161 votes