You know, 
and even 
I can't for the life of me remember the last time I saw 
. You'd think he'd be around a lot more. What happened? Did jungle changes hurt him that badly?
RiotRiot Sotere9 votesThe other 4/5 all have really good pre-six ganks. Wukong doesn't. Think he's still fine, but there's definitely an importance of having some early presence and while he brings the damage the other guys can complete a kill better.
EyesOfTheFox1 votesHow do you feel about the state of Marksmen currently? All the pro players, including Doublelift via his Twitch stream, have basically stated that with all the high burst champions/assassins (better able to complete kills) and nerfs to armor pen (buffs to tanks), the game has become a much more early focused snowball heavy romp that doesn't favor the lack of utility in most marksmen's kits. I feel the only reason Vayne and Twitch are viable is because of the buffs to stealth/nerfs to vision. Riot even nerfed towers so it's easier for the tower to redistribute tower hate between enemy champions on dives. Korea has even started playing Ziggs in an APC role bot lane solely for his ability to burst down waves and said towers quickly for almost no mana cost or cooldown (which also means more harass early game), not to mention the cheaper build path that comes with buying AP items. Was it Riot's intention to take power away from marksmen and redistribute it to finally kill the term ADC, or is that just a negative outcome of the current state of the game?
Edit: Because of the current state of the game, I feel that a lot of Marksmen are becoming less viable champions for any place on the Rift.
Edit II: Oh and as a lover of Wukong, he never really was that great in the Jungle because he's always had trouble with those low level clears. He even says it himself, "My place is at the top." Although I do feel he deserves some buffs to his early game damage.
RiotRiot Sotere9 votesThe perception is definitely there that they are on the weaker side. We are just out of the Vayne two-shot era, and Varus and Corki still get decent amounts of solo lane play. Think a thorough answer here would take awhile so allow me to piecemeal some of my thoughts at ya.
Statistically, seems like support is the role that's wanted to play the least. This certainly isn't new. But it does impact marksmen, when their partner is unwilling to play along with them. Likewise, if you have people playing less supporty and more magey champions in that position, the marksmen position is going to feel worse. You have 1 champions worth of power, instead of 1.5/2.
I think explorations like Ziggs bottom are awesome. Wish we saw more of that get acclaim. Am definitely unconvinced that it's optimal. I'm super hopeful it's actually decent.
Don't think there was an intention of taking power away from marksmen, necessarily. Couple of things that are semi-new that contribute to their power being down: few of them relied on penetration builds that are worse, junglers tend to be slightly stronger earlier and have more presence bottom, mage supports are more popular, people who kill marksmen are popular (divers from the jungle, Syndra in mid, assassins to a lesser extent.
Hige1 votesZiggs in bottom is a thing because the current only viable marksmen are bursty ones :S Jhin and Cait have those crazy high crits and they are almost the only ones who can compete against an assassin.
As for twitch... I honestly don't see him as viable unless he goes ahead in laning phase... a twitch who is behind will get bursted before his ult is finished :S
Ahristocats9 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NeiUbdEX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-31T23:14:32.817+0000)
We are just out of the Vayne two-shot era,
i serously want to laught right now
The Letter H1 votesLate game she can still 2 shot you, like usual even BEFORE the q changes, but now she can't 1-2 shot you before late game, which is great.
WarWork1 votesI'm really glad someone brought this up and its something I was wondering about. I was watching the most recent episode of Beyond the Rift (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-YTSCuiJQo). And to summarize a bit of what they were saying the main problems of the marksman role are as follows;
What do you guys think I myself don't play ADC, hate it
AMYS GRAVE1 votesWe are just out of the Vayne two-shot era,
wat?
Stephenizgod1 votesI think if it wasn't Cait vs Vayne/Jhin/Jinx like almost every game, bot lane would be more fun to play in. Those 4 are just ridiculous with Cait being the most annoying of the 4.
I was doin Ziggs bot lane for a long time and they all called me troll, only I could see its awesome powah! I think mages coming bot lane and performing well is bad, it means there is an issue somewhere. It should be ok for Mages to come bot, but about as ok for a Support to go mid...
Lucifer1 votesWe're only out of the Vayne 2 shot era because Vayne is banned in 40% of games, and Caitlynn is picked in the other 60%.
Skias1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NeiUbdEX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-31T23:14:32.817+0000)
The perception is definitely there that they are on the weaker side. We are just out of the Vayne two-shot era, and Varus and Corki still get decent amounts of solo lane play. Think a thorough answer here would take awhile so allow me to piecemeal some of my thoughts at ya.
Statistically, seems like support is the role that's wanted to play the least. This certainly isn't new. But it does impact marksmen, when their partner is unwilling to play along with them. Likewise, if you have people playing less supporty and more magey champions in that position, the marksmen position is going to feel worse. You have 1 champions worth of power, instead of 1.5/2.
I think explorations like Ziggs bottom are awesome. Wish we saw more of that get acclaim. Am definitely unconvinced that it's optimal. I'm super hopeful it's actually decent.
Don't think there was an intention of taking power away from marksmen, necessarily. Couple of things that are semi-new that contribute to their power being down: few of them relied on penetration builds that are worse, junglers tend to be slightly stronger earlier and have more presence bottom, mage supports are more popular, people who kill marksmen are popular (divers from the jungle, Syndra in mid, assassins to a lesser extent.
Any chance of changes to give bottom some relief and put more importance on Top? Herald is so goofy in terms of reward and timing to vs. The loss of dragon, top just seems forgotten by junglers most games.
Chromatic Eagle1 votespeople who kill marksmen are popular (divers from the jungle, Syndra in mid, assassins to a lesser extent.
Aren't assassins supposed to be the most effective at killing marksmen? Isn't that a sign that either they're too weak, or that mages and divers are too strong?
The Yetii Rider1 votesAnd what is your plan for dealing with the support role being filled by people who do not want to play it?
MunchCrunchLunch1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NeiUbdEX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-31T23:14:32.817+0000)
The perception is definitely there that they are on the weaker side. We are just out of the Vayne two-shot era, and Varus and Corki still get decent amounts of solo lane play. Think a thorough answer here would take awhile so allow me to piecemeal some of my thoughts at ya.
Statistically, seems like support is the role that's wanted to play the least. This certainly isn't new. But it does impact marksmen, when their partner is unwilling to play along with them. Likewise, if you have people playing less supporty and more magey champions in that position, the marksmen position is going to feel worse. You have 1 champions worth of power, instead of 1.5/2.
I think explorations like Ziggs bottom are awesome. Wish we saw more of that get acclaim. Am definitely unconvinced that it's optimal. I'm super hopeful it's actually decent.
Don't think there was an intention of taking power away from marksmen, necessarily. Couple of things that are semi-new that contribute to their power being down: few of them relied on penetration builds that are worse, junglers tend to be slightly stronger earlier and have more presence bottom, mage supports are more popular, people who kill marksmen are popular (divers from the jungle, Syndra in mid, assassins to a lesser extent.
vayne might be not in the two shot era. its the 3 shot era now. still unhealthy fam
SlashStriker1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NeiUbdEX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-31T04:41:36.407+0000)
The other 4/5 all have really good pre-six ganks. Wukong doesn't. Think he's still fine, but there's definitely an importance of having some early presence and while he brings the damage the other guys can complete a kill better.
Wukong as a Monkey King should be able to excel in the jungle just like nidalee does. He has huge potential to be good jungler and he got really good ganks thanks to his W, but needs a little buff vs monsters. Like Shaco, Wukong can appear in the middle of the lane out of nowhere and once he reach level 6 he can become nightmare for enemy team
You guys don't slap the names like Monkey King and Beastial Hunters for no reason right?
0otay1 votesI have a friend who mains wukong, and he is quite weak for diving, but that dose not make a weak jungler, i love his ganking potential.
SpookyNeedle1 votesWukong as a Monkey King should be able to excel in the jungle just like nidalee does. He has huge potential to be good jungler and he got really good ganks thanks to his W, but needs a little buff vs monsters. Like Shaco, Wukong can appear in the middle of the lane out of nowhere and once he reach level 6 he can become nightmare for enemy team
You guys don't slap the names like Monkey King and Beastial Hunters for no reason right?
Nidalee lives in the Kumungu jungle, also she has an average 40% winrate right now. Not what I'd call excelling
SlashStriker1 votesNidalee lives in the Kumungu jungle, also she has an average 40% winrate right now. Not what I'd call excelling
concept has nothing to do with balancing champions
BobaFlautist4 votesHe also just can't clear the jungle.
ReZisT Lust1 votesE max is what. I do
All Skillzz4 votesThey need to do something about early divers like vi/hec with cotc cause its getting to become bull shit.
xxxDogmanxxx2 votesWhat?? Isn't Xin Zhao's pick rate like 1% or something? I have never seen an enemy pick my main Xin Zhao in any of my ranked games, like... ever, even when I don't play him.
greenmangos1 votesXin is much more popular in low elo such as bronze and silver. He is annoying early on but late game unless he is fed he is useless escept for ult knockback.
MLDzXnRRR1 votesWukong was viable jungler pre season 5... He can't clear and sustain now at all compared to the other junglers.
