As long as you don't count Kennen (and let's face it, he's not really a marksman to begin with), all of our marksmen are mana-users. I dunno about you, but that feels like an old requirement now.
Would it be so bad if we had a manaless marksman? It could open a few doors, I feel.
Crett4 votesBot-lane historically has been balanced around the battle of attrition. When one side's resources cannot be depleted, that tends to start polarizing their kits in a rather unhealthy way. That seems to be Riot's stance on it as far as I remember.
If you want to see manaless champs in the bot-lane, why not try just taking manaless champions into the bot lane? Zed bot is viable as long as you have a marksman elsewhere, as well as Mundo.
Nekusen1 votesBot-lane historically has been balanced around the battle of attrition. When one side's resources cannot be depleted, that tends to start polarizing their kits in a rather unhealthy way. That seems to be Riot's stance on it as far as I remember.
same applies to manaless champions of all lanes, they get an unfair sustain advantage but they are (supposedly) balanced elsewhere.
Sohleks3 votesIt's an extremely powerful combination: sustained ranged damage that can access lifesteal easily to keep itself propelling endlessly. I play a lot of Kennen and he is about the most offensive an AD ranged manaless champion can get before becoming obscene.
The shtick of this manaless marksmen would have to be lane bully with minimal steroids. Or his early game would have to be very tightly undertuned if the point is to scale (but then what is the point of being manaless?)
Seems Riot has been phasing out "lane bully" as a thing for adcs for a while though
Yeah I have thought about it before. Like some kind of manaless ninja star throwing adc (not Kennen; more acrobatic, more athletic and stylish). I was thinking like an AD style ranged Katarina. But then we're stepping on the toes of her thematic
A torch thrower maybe really cool actually. Better.
How about instead of manaless he could regenerate his own mana through stylish and or good play? I guess why not a different resource then tho lol. Since he is a manaless ranged champ you want to encourage some kind of elegance to his gameplay in some way or he would seem too dull in effect. I am thinking a lot like Draven now (something thats always bothered me about Draven wasn't so much catching axes but his mana pool)
darkdill1 votesHere's an example of how it could work, using a variant of Jhin's ammo mechanic.
Teridax681 votesThis is pretty much Graves and Jhin's ammo system, which has been used on them alongside mana. That could be a great way to gate a champion's power, but that alone doesn't mean they'll be healthy without mana in bot lane. As an extreme example, if your champion had 800+ autoattack range, they'd always be at a safe range even while reloading, and so would run the risk of never having to leave lane. However, if you design your marksman in such a way that they have to eventually take damage, e.g. by having a really short combat range, a kit that encourages really aggressive play, effects that reward trading and going all-in, maybe even self-damage, etc., then they'd probably not need mana at all, since even with lifesteal they'd probably still have to go back eventually.
Bellows1 votesHere's an example of how it could work, using a variant of Jhin's ammo mechanic.
- You are a "Cowboy" Champion who uses a 6-shooter revolver. Each basic attack and basic ability uses 1 Ammo, and you can hold up to 6 Ammo at once. If you have no Ammo left, you cannot attack or use basic abilities until you reload (which is done automatically). Your attack range is 500.
So basically jhin without mana restraint. XD
Also 500 is stupid low
Nekusen1 votesyeah, i also hate when people downvote for asking a question (solved it ;) )
btw, you probably will be interested in this: basically something they might do, a marksman that uses a heat system like Rumble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wChuE6pf4v4
if you have design ideas, you could post a champion concept here:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts
Quepha1 votesI think there are two main issues with a 'manaless' marksman
It's not unheard of for a manaless champion to have a poke, but that is dangerous to game health; It's not unheard of for an adc to not have a long range tool in their kit, but it certainly brings up a challenge of how this champion can survive a lane where two opponents are trying to zone them with superior-ranged abilities and why you bother to put up with such a laning phase.
For the enemy it would probably just be best to ignore him and focus on cs'ing safely, and then we have a really boring game where two players are just playing PvE trying to last hit more accurately.
Teridax681 votesEvery thread seems to start out with some initial downvotes...
I think the core reason for mana is that marksmen get extremely easy access to sustain with lifesteal, even early on, and so need a reason to go back to base, otherwise they could passively farm under tower almost indefinitely. Out of all the classes out there, marksmen have the least incentive to take risks early on, and tend to have some of the greatest overall safety (i.e. range and often mobility), so they need some kind of hard limit to their staying power in lane so as to not be impossible to dislodge.
I personally dislike the use of mana as a default resource, and think it's not that appropriate on a lot of mana-based champions, including a lot of marksmen (and maybe even some mages). I think it would be a lot healthier and more interesting if, instead of being forced to farm early on, marksmen were encouraged to be as aggressive as other classes in lane, if not more aggressive, and ended up being forced to go back by taking major damage in trades, instead of running OOM. Graves is forced to put himself at risk even when farming, for example, and in a different environment I think he could probably afford to not run on mana.
Quepha1 votesI think it would be a lot healthier and more interesting if, instead of being forced to farm early on, marksmen were encouraged to be as aggressive as other classes in lane, if not more aggressive, and ended up being forced to go back by taking major damage in trades
But Marksmen naturally have strong late games due to both their itemization and playstyle. Their autos scale multiplicatively on 3 different axes (AD, AS, and crit) making their 2nd and 3rd damage item usually worth much more to them than the 2nd and 3rd damage items on most non-marksmen champions. When team fights roll around 5 zones of threat on each side are interacting with each other, champions with longer ranges are the only ones who can reasonably find an opportunity to deal damage without taking much in return, and the targets they can get their damage on are going to be low range champions that want to build tanky to survive those situations as long as possible. Dealing damage from range to targets that are too tanky to be bursted down means range with sustained damage makes for the ideal champion to have on your side. Don't forget that the actual goal of the game is to destroy the nexus, which is protected by towers and inhibitors, and all of those structures are best dealt with by a long-ranged auto attacker.
If Marksmen naturally scale better into late game and naturally serve a more useful role in the team fights of late game on top of having a safe sustained farming pattern, AND THEN you gave them enough early power that they can scrap against other champions in the early game... why even pick other champions?
It's true that some marksmen are thought of as 'early game' marksmen while others are thought of as 'lategame' marksmen, but those classifications are usually used in relation to other marksmen, not champions from other classes. Against an enemy who picks no marksmen, even a Draven pick for your side would feel like you are looking to hold out until late game when team fights happen so Draven can clean up.
Teridax681 votesI didn't specify giving marksmen stronger late games, I just wanted them to be pushed towards fighting more often in lane (i.e. more rewards for trading and risky plays, fewer rewards for playing passively). To be honest, though, I'd love to get rid of the whole notion that marksmen have to be weak early and strong late: sure, autoattack-based champions in League naturally tend to have a steep power curve as the game goes on and they get items, but I feel it would be a lot more interesting for everyone if they had more options during the laning phase besides farming, and gave more options to their opponents in the late game besides either bursting them down or staying out of their range.
A lot of people take issue with how central marksmen are to every team, and I think part of it has to do with their power curve: with a style of damage-dealing that is naturally good in teamfights and against objectives, marksmen already have plenty of reasons to be picked, and plenty of ways they can be strong late-game, but on top of that their power curve is tilted even more towards that, which makes them the late-game champions, to the point where practically nobody else matters as much. Combined with the fact that a) marksmen are now always paired up with supports to make up for their weaker laning, and b) many marksmen are strong enough to be solo lane bullies, it usually renders their lack of early game power moot, or at least far less relevant than it should be.
Recently, Riot did a few experiments with Kog'Maw, and adjusted his power curve with the intention of moving him away from being a hypercarry, and more towards a cooldown-dependent marksman who could be at least decently powerful at all stages of the game. Even though Kog is usually known for having a terrible early game and a godly late game, I think it would be better both for him and everyone else if he had a much more standard power curve: whenever Kog or any other hypercarry becomes too hyper on both ends of their power curve, they usually have no real option but to hard farm early on, which makes for pretty boring lanes, and once they reach critical mass it usually feels like there's nothing much that can be done to stop them besides jumping on top of them all at once (granted, Kog's immobility and squishiness mean he can always be dealt with, but a late-game Vayne is a pain in the ass). With more power early, he can feel comfortable attacking the enemy duo, and with less power late the enemy has more of a fighting chance when entering his combat range. If a notable hypercarry marksman like Kog'Maw can benefit from a flatter power curve, I think practically any marksman would be better off with an identity that's less reliant on their raw power increasing with items, and more focused on how they can uniquely fight and contribute to their team.
Quepha1 votesI just wanted them to be pushed towards fighting more often in lane (i.e. more rewards for trading and risky plays, fewer rewards for playing passively).
Rewards for playing aggressively other than actually being good at playing aggressively? I really dislike that pattern and how it feels on a champion. That was a principle of Cassiopeia's Shurima rework (poison enemies to stack faster) and it simply didn't work until the non-aggressive source of stacking was buffed and Cassiopeia's early game was also buffed so that she wasn't actually that weak in the early game. To make a champion want to fight in the early game, I think it's safe to say the only solution is to actually make them good at fighting in the early game.
A lot of people take issue with how central marksmen are to every team, and I think part of it has to do with their power curve: with a style of damage-dealing that is naturally good in teamfights and against objectives, marksmen already have plenty of reasons to be picked
And it's better to have a power curve that supports that pattern than works against it. If you work against a champion's natural style then you muddy their role instead of sharpening their niche and up with a clunky generalist who's either always good and starts showing up in every lane to bully the enemy and transition into a solid objective-taker later on or simply hot garbage. Consider old Graves who oscillated wildly between "win any lane and clean up the game" and "sometimes his burst is ok if the enemy is out of position before the 20 minute mark and your damage falls off a cliff" depending on the patch. New Graves seems like he might fall into the same pattern as he has quite powerful burst in the early game and transitions into an excellent tower shredder with solid damage while laughing off anything the enemy tries to do with him due to his whopping 160 free armor.
I like that you brought up Kog'maw too... "Let's see what happens when we try to make an immobile yet long range champion with poor burst into something that isn't so bad in the early game at the cost of not being quite so oppressive in the late" "Hmm, that just made him weak overall, let's try and give him just a teeny bit more early power.." "Oh god, what have we done?! Kill it! Kill it or it will find our families!"
Teridax681 votesRewards for playing aggressively other than actually being good at playing aggressively? I really dislike that pattern and how it feels on a champion. That was a principle of Cassiopeia's Shurima rework (poison enemies to stack faster) and it simply didn't work until the non-aggressive source of stacking was buffed and Cassiopeia's early game was also buffed so that she wasn't actually that weak in the early game. To make a champion want to fight in the early game, I think it's safe to say the only solution is to actually make them good at fighting in the early game.
Rewarding someone for playing aggressively doesn't mean you have to make them strictly more powerful overall, especially if you take away safer power in exchange (an example could be reducing the damage on Quinn's abilities, but increasing her Harrier damage). Cassiopeia's Shurima rework had a lot of problems, but the encouragement of poison application was not one of them, and prior to her rework she was encouraged to fire her spells in quick succession, which also amounts to aggressive play.
And it's better to have a power curve that supports that pattern than works against it.
I didn't propose a pattern that "worked against it", and I see no problem with early game marksmen like Graves or Caitlyn, who are naturally less apt at taking down objectives than most other marksmen. I'm not proposing to make marksmen universally strong early and weak late, I'd just rather they had flatter power progression, particularly since their current "weak early, strong late" curve doesn't really mesh well with a metagame that's based around covering up their early weaknesses. The problem with "supporting the pattern" of early weakness and late-game strength to extremes is that it tends to engender really passive and boring laning phases, and late games where the enemy team feels they've lost just by letting the match get that far, with few options to deal with the hypercarry they're facing.
I like that you brought up Kog'maw too... "Let's see what happens when we try to make an immobile yet long range champion with poor burst into something that isn't so bad in the early game at the cost of not being quite so oppressive in the late" "Hmm, that just made him weak overall, let's try and give him just a teeny bit more early power.." "Oh god, what have we done?! Kill it! Kill it or it will find our families!"
The changes I'm talking about were done on Patch 6.8, long after the overbuffs and nerfs, and he's in a pretty decent state now. Even if he somehow turned into an overpowered monster, that does not detract from the core idea that making a champion's power curve less extreme has the potential to generate more positive gameplay for everyone.
Quepha1 votesCassiopeia's Shurima rework had a lot of problems, but the encouragement of poison application was not one of them, and prior to her rework she was encouraged to fire her spells in quick succession, which also amounts to aggressive play.
I completely disagree. When Cassiopeia was actually very weak early it was an incentive for her to perform the exact task that would lose her the game, it felt like garbage. Your proposed change to Quinn, if it did not increase her overall power in an early fight, would not cause her to fight early. It would simply be a nerf to her as her harass would be weakened and she wouldn't bother trying to use her harrier procs more often than normal.
I didn't propose a pattern that "worked against it", and I see no problem with early game marksmen like Graves or Caitlyn, who are naturally less apt at taking down objectives than most other marksmen.
Caitlyn is not an early game adc, and she is one of the best in the game at taking out objectives. But in your evaluation of her and Graves you have to resort to a qualifier that you are only comparing them to other marksman. If you compare them to champions outside the marksman class they are more lategame teamfight and objective-focused champions.
I'm not proposing to make marksmen universally strong early and weak late, I'd just rather they had flatter power progression, particularly since their current "weak early, strong late" curve doesn't really mesh well with a metagame that's based around covering up their early weaknesses. The problem with "supporting the pattern" of early weakness and late-game strength to extremes is that it tends to engender really passive and boring laning phases, and late games where the enemy team feels they've lost just by letting the match get that far, with few options to deal with the hypercarry they're facing.
Covering up for early weakness means that the enemy is trying to exploit that early weakness, you aren't talking about a passive lane phase because someone is trying to target the weakness while someone else is trying to protect it. That's a game right there.
Curves of weakness and strength over the length of a match are 100% essential to distinguishing mobas from other genres of games. Without those curves the only point to power growth systems would be the snowball effect, the only strategy then becomes gaining an early lead, and champion diversity will fall as there are far fewer strategies for success that call for far fewer niches to be filled.
The changes I'm talking about were done on Patch 6.8, long after the overbuffs and nerfs, and he's in a pretty decent state now. Even if he somehow turned into an overpowered monster, that does not detract from the core idea that making a champion's power curve less extreme has the potential to generate more positive gameplay for everyone.
Patch 6.8 removed early power (damage from W) for lategame power (resistance shred on Q) It was all the changes preceding that which gave him early power.
Teridax681 votesI completely disagree. When Cassiopeia was actually very weak early it was an incentive for her to perform the exact task that would lose her the game, it felt like garbage. Your proposed change to Quinn, if it did not increase her overall power in an early fight, would not cause her to fight early. It would simply be a nerf to her as her harass would be weakened and she wouldn't bother trying to use her harrier procs more often than normal.
That's not what anyone cited as a problem with Cassiopeia; the issue with her passive was that its power milestones felt artificial and her early game felt unnecessarily weak as a result. I also don't think you can reliably make any predictions as to the example changes I mentioned, particularly since I cited no numbers and you're making assumptions that don't really even apply to Quinn now (her Harrier procs are powerful enough already for her to try to apply them as much as she can now).
Caitlyn is not an early game adc
She is. She's historically known for being the lane bully ADC and was originally designed for solo laning.
and she is one of the best in the game at taking out objectives.
She's not. She has sub-par attack speed scaling for a marksman and clears both towers and epic monsters slower than her competitors.
But in your evaluation of her and Graves you have to resort to a qualifier that you are only comparing them to other marksman. If you compare them to champions outside the marksman class they are more lategame teamfight and objective-focused champions.
Graves isn't really teamfight- or objective-focused, at least not as much as other marksmen, he excels at dueling champions and bursting them down. Caitlyn has more DPS than the average champion by dint of being a marksman, but isn't really the best at those two either even by non-marksman standards.
Covering up for early weakness means that the enemy is trying to exploit that early weakness, you aren't talking about a passive lane phase because someone is trying to target the weakness while someone else is trying to protect it. That's a game right there.
Who is trying to target that weakness? How? My point is that this "weakness" isn't a real weakness if it can be covered to the point of being moot, which is the case with marksmen being weak in lane. If marksmen were somehow forced to solo lane and could be bullied really hard, then it would be meaningful, but the presence of their support, and the vision they provide, makes bot lane the safest and most gank-resistant of the three lanes, which seriously mitigates whatever laning shortcomings they might have, and contributes to the overall passivity of marksmen early on.
Curves of weakness and strength over the length of a match are 100% essential to distinguishing mobas from other genres of games.
I agree, but that does not mean a champion should have too few options at one stage of the game, and leave their opponents with too few options at another. Again, I'm not talking about removing power curves altogether, I'm saying that a) no power curve should be so extreme as to reduce overall gameplay, as is the case for many hypercarries, and b) marksmen as a class should likely not be defined by hyperscaling fighting power when they're already naturally good in the late game, for similar reasons, and could benefit from being defined around combat prowess dependent on their own unique contributions, rather than just items.
Patch 6.8 removed early power (damage from W) for lategame power (resistance shred on Q) It was all the changes preceding that which gave him early power.
Here are the patch notes for Kog'Maw:
This is a power shift from his W to his Q, but overall he has a smoother power curve, as mentioned above, and is stronger early and weaker late (notice the net result is base damage reduction on his W).
Quepha2 votesThat's not what anyone cited as a problem with Cassiopeia; the issue with her passive was that its power milestones felt artificial and her early game felt unnecessarily weak as a result. I also don't think you can reliably make any predictions as to the example changes I mentioned, particularly since I cited no numbers and you're making assumptions that don't really even apply to Quinn now (her Harrier procs are powerful enough already for her to try to apply them as much as she can now).
Then you absolutely were not here for her rework. That was a huge complaint and Riot had to buff the crap out of her early game to make her playable.
She is. She's historically known for being the lane bully ADC and was originally designed for solo laning.
"Originally designed" has nothing to do with what she is. She has a poor winrate early game and a high winrate late game, she is picked by pros for late game team fighting and while her damage isn't amazing she makes up for it with the zone control her traps provide and the absurd amount of safety she has always had. Before her rework when she was thought of as the lane bully champ, it was hard for people to articulate what her weakness was because her early game bullying power let her win lane and get more gold, and then in the late game she had such a ridiculous amount of safety on top of her gold lead that she would end up dealing more damage in late game team fights anyways even without a true auto steroid.
I agree, but that does not mean a champion should have too few options at one stage of the game, and leave their opponents with too few options at another. Again, I'm not talking about removing power curves altogether, I'm saying that a) no power curve should be so extreme as to reduce overall gameplay, as is the case for many hypercarries, and b) marksmen as a class should likely not be defined by hyperscaling fighting power when they're already naturally good in the late game, for similar reasons, and could benefit from being defined around combat prowess dependent on their own unique contributions, rather than just items.
There are no powercurves to the degree that you are talking about.
Here are the patch notes for Kog'Maw:
- Caustic Spittle resistance reduction increased to 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28% from 12 / 16 / 20 / 24 / 28%.
- Bio-Arcane Barrage base damage reduced to 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20 from 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30.
This is a power shift from his W to his Q, but overall he has a smoother power curve, as mentioned above, and is stronger early and weaker late (notice the net result is base damage reduction on his W).
Kog'maw maxes his W first and his Q afterwards, the power buff to Q doesn't even have an effect until team fights are happening because he shouldn't encounter a champion in lane phase with resistances worth shredding. The power increase scales up as the game goes on as the enemy builds more resistances and team fights where kog'maw needs to shred a tank are more relevant.
The power nerf from his W hits his early game the hardest since leveling his W is the major source of his early power spikes. Furthermore, later in the game the flat on-hit damage becomes less and less relevant as Kog'maw builds more on-hit effects and his hp scaling on-hit effects become more powerful.
The damage nerf hits his early damage harder than his late, the damage buff hits his late game damage harder than his early. That is a clear shift of power from his early game to his late which needed to be done because Kog'maw is a champion that will inherently be better in the late game no matter what Riot does to his damage numbers, and giving him enough early power to duel champions just means he has no weaknesses. All ranged auto attack focused champions fill this pattern (except maybe Graves and Jhin) simply because they are ranged auto attack focused champions. You take away their quadratic scaling (On-hits are actually closer to a linear scaling than crits by their nature) and they are still waiting for team fights to roll around to be really useful but just don't deal any damage even then and are useless all game. You give them better early damage to compensate and now they win in the early game, get more gold, and win in the late game too.
Teridax681 votesThen you absolutely were not here for her rework. That was a huge complaint and Riot had to buff the crap out of her early game to make her playable.
I followed her rework and follow-up closely, including her overbuffs and subsequent nerfs. Even you point to her early game being her problem, which is what I was pointing out, and not her innate poison application, which was the matter of this disagreement.
"Originally designed" has nothing to do with what she is. She has a poor winrate early game and a high winrate late game, she is picked for late game team fighting and while her damage isn't amazing she makes up for it with the zone control her traps provide and the absurd amount of safety she has always had.
It does when it points out her strengths, and Caitlyn is a marksman with the early strength of a solo laner. She has one of the highest early win rates out of any marksman and is picked for her early safety and poke rather than for late-game teamfighting power. For further proof, check any competitive game featuring her.
There are no powercurves to the degree that you are talking about.
Vayne, Nasus, Azir, pre-rework Kog'Maw and Shurima Cassiopeia are all pretty clear examples of this, and as mentioned above, autoattack-based champions in general, including also Master Yi and Warwick, tend to lack options early on while often feeling overbearing later. Have you not seen any of the threads on these boards discussing the prevalence of marksmen in the game?
Kog'maw maxes his W first and his Q afterwards, the power buff to Q doesn't even have an effect until team fights are happening because he shouldn't encounter a champion in lane phase with resistances worth shredding. The power increase scales up as the game goes on as the enemy builds more resistances and team fights where kog'maw needs to shred a tank are more relevant.
20% resistance reduction is huge even in the early game, and the fact that he maxes W first is irrelevant to this because his Q buff starts at rank 1.
The power nerf from his W hits his early game the hardest since leveling his W is the major source of his early power spikes. Furthermore, later in the game the flat on-hit damage becomes less and less relevant as Kog'maw builds more on-hit effects and his hp scaling on-hit effects become more powerful.
His W is designed to scale into the late-game first and foremost, and this doesn't detract from the fact that his late-game is still less powerful (and 10 less damage per attack is still relevant even with on-hit effects). If you look at his statistics, Kog'Maw's early win rate went up, and his late-game win rate went down after these changes.
The damage nerf hits his early damage harder than his late, the damage buff hits his late game damage harder than his early. That is a clear shift of power from his early game to his late which needed to be done because Kog'maw is a champion that will inherently be better in the late game no matter what Riot does to his damage numbers. All ranged auto attack focused champions fill this pattern except maybe Graves and Jhin simply because they are ranged auto attack focused champions. You take away their quadratic scaling (On-hits are actually closer to a linear scaling than crits by their nature) and they are still waiting for team fights to roll around to be really useful.
Putting aside the fact that most users of on-hit builds tend to scale harder than crit users, what you said is contradicted by statistical evidence and what Riot said on Kog'Maw in their patch notes:
[{quoted}](name=6.5 Patch Notes)
Before we talk 6.5, let’s talk about how we got here.
Kog’Maw’s identity is one of the clearest we have in league - a baby voidling that if sheltered and protected, grows into a hyper-carrying win condition all his own. Historically this has been done through balancing his laning phase to a state where it’s nearly impossible to withstand aggression, given that the rewards for succeeding were that you’d have an extremely powerful Kog’Maw on your team. Cut to the Marksman Update for Preseason, and now Kog has an additional tradeoff for his power - specifically ‘can you engineer a fight such that he can stand still and obliterate everything in sight’. Granted, the tradeoffs between high damage and mobility isn’t actually ordinary for a Marksman - they usually kite and fight simultaneously. Understandably, the early days of Kog’Maw’s update were a rough learning time for us all. We had a glass cannon that was all glass and no cannon.
So we thought, ‘If he’s not performing, let’s give him some love in a way that boosts his laning phase!’ That was 6.3. Terror ensued.
Back in the present, we’re looking to make a sustainable Kog’Maw for the long-term, free from the binary teeter-totter of ‘really strong or really weak’ that hypercarries tend to fall into. The changelist below represents a shift in thinking about Kog’s power curve - he’ll still scale incredibly with items, but that curve is now more even across the game (rather than spiking at any one particular point). Smoothing this curve means that Kog’s lane can be in a state that’s relatively normal compared to his peers, but the ‘race against the clock’ should feel less harsh for those that fall behind. Kog’Maw may always be the posterchild for what the term ‘hyper-carry’ means in League of Legends, but the hope is for that term to extend beyond just ‘bad lane, great late game’ and into meaningful interactions between the champions and their environments.
And:
[{quoted}](name=6.8 Patch Notes)
When last we joined Kog’Maw on his adventures through patch notes, we spoke a lot about giving hypercarries a more even power curve than just ‘great late, awful early.’ These changes are furthering that philosophy, letting Kog feel like he gets to have a Q and reining in his insane power spike.
I rest my case.
Quepha2 votesIt does when it points out her strengths, and Caitlyn is a marksman with the early strength of a solo laner. She has one of the highest early win rates out of any marksman and is picked for her early safety and poke rather than for late-game teamfighting power. For further proof, check any competitive game featuring her.
champion.gg/champion/Caitlyn her winrate is low in the early game, lowest just after early game, highest in the late game.
Not counting Urgot, she has the 4th lowest winrate before 25 minutes of any adc, the 7th lowest winrate at 25-30 minutes (just behind the middle of the pack), the 5th highest winrate at 40+ minutes, the 4th highest gain in winrate from the 0-25 minute timer to the 40+ minute timer. Even compared to other marksman she is looking 'lategame focused' from every possible angle you could statistically examine her.
Teridax681 voteschampion.gg/champion/Caitlyn her winrate is low in the early game, lowest just after early game, highest in the late game.
Not counting Urgot, she has the 4th lowest winrate before 25 minutes of any adc, the 7th lowest winrate at 25-30 minutes (just behind the middle of the pack), the 5th highest winrate at 40+ minutes, the 4th highest gain in winrate from the 0-25 minute timer to the 40+ minute timer. Even compared to other marksman she is looking 'lategame focused' from every possible angle you could statistically examine her.
First off, you're conflating her power curve with her balance relative to other marksmen, and comparing her win rates with the competition gives no real indication as to her own power progression. Second, her win rate goes down from the early game to the 30 minute mark, which is the critical part of the curve as it corresponds to an average champion's power progression, so by your logic the statistics prove she's early-game focused, not late-game focused. Third, that sole set of statistics you're using is not an accurate assessor of a champion's power curve, as can be seen on many other marksmen: to cite but a few examples, Jinx and Ashe, who are notable for their high late-game scaling, have descending win-rate curves, as does Kog'Maw, and Urgot, known for being a lane bully with an exceptionally poor late-game, has an ascending win rate curve. You are using statistics incorrectly to try to prove a point that has no relevance to the original comment in this long line of replies.
Quepha2 votesFirst off, you're conflating her power curve with her balance relative to other marksmen, and comparing her win rates with the competition gives no real indication as to her own power progression. Second, her win rate goes down from the early game to the 30 minute mark, which is the critical part of the curve as it corresponds to an average champion's power progression, so by your logic the statistics prove she's early-game focused, not late-game focused. Third, that sole set of statistics you're using is not an accurate assessor of a champion's power curve, as can be seen on many other marksmen: to cite but a few examples, Jinx and Ashe, who are notable for their high late-game scaling, have descending win-rate curves, as does Kog'Maw, and Urgot, known for being a lane bully with an exceptionally poor late-game, has an ascending win rate curve. You are using statistics incorrectly to try to prove a point that has no relevance to the original comment in this long line of replies.
You said she had one of the highest early game winrates for a marksman. You were objectively and blatantly incorrect.
If it comes down to a reputation instead of statistics, listen to any caster in a game where Caitlyn is picked and you'll hear them talk about how she's picked for her powerful teamfight potential in the late game.
Teridax681 votesIf you really want to persuade yourself that Caitlyn isn't an early game marksman, in spite of universal evidence to the contrary, suit yourself, but you're not going to be convincing me or anyone else. In the meantime, this conversation has gone on so many tangents it's lost all relevance to the original comment and the main topic of this thread. What was the point you were trying to make?
Teridax681 votesI don't think that's really the case, as Kindred and Graves are examples of strong early marksmen who've added to the game. I also think the point as you're framing it has a lot of issues: for one, nearly every class is teamfight-focused in the sense that they make a major contribution to teamfights (many supports are built around teamfighting, for example), yet marksmen are unique in that the entire class has steep power scaling, mainly because of itemization. Another issue is that, again, just because a champion has naturally good usefulness late-game doesn't mean their power curve has to be similarly skewed towards late, and as mentioned by Riot themselves, going too far into that direction is what causes gameplay issues.
Quepha1 votesI don't think that's really the case, as Kindred and Graves are examples of strong early marksmen who've added to the game. I also think the point as you're framing it has a lot of issues: for one, nearly every class is teamfight-focused in the sense that they make a major contribution to teamfights (many supports are built around teamfighting, for example), yet marksmen are unique in that the entire class has steep power scaling, mainly because of itemization. Another issue is that, again, just because a champion has naturally good usefulness late-game doesn't mean their power curve has to be similarly skewed towards late, and as mentioned by Riot themselves, going too far into that direction is what causes gameplay issues.
We've yet to see if Graves and Kindred can be balanced, they've been very dominant since their introduction to the game and I think for Graves to be balanced he needs to be looked at as a fighter first with some elements of a marksman second and further accentuate how much he benefits from being in melee range.
Teridax681 votesThat's not really relevant to their ability to be strong early without breaking the game. Sure, they've been a bit too strong, but they're objectively healthy overall, and a lot more marksmen could stand to have a power shift that'd give them more options early and less raw damage late.
Quepha1 votesThat's not really relevant to their ability to be strong early without breaking the game. Sure, they've been a bit too strong, but they're objectively healthy overall, and a lot more marksmen could stand to have a power shift that'd give them more options early and less raw damage late.
Graves is not healthy. His resistance steroid defies reason, the damage he deals while being that tanky and having a dash gives him no weakness in a fight.
Teridax681 votesHis resistance steroid might be too strong, but his core gameplay is nonetheless pretty healthy. Peel away the overly high resistances and generally unpleasant Sterak's + Maw build, and you have a champion who throws himself into combat despite having less innate defenses than most champions entering that range, along with far more counters to his damage than most marksmen. Again, you're going on yet another tangent by picking up on a detail that has little to no relevance to the original point.
Quepha1 votesHis resistance steroid might be too strong, but his core gameplay is nonetheless pretty healthy. Peel away the overly high resistances and generally unpleasant Sterak's + Maw build, and you have a champion who throws himself into combat despite having less innate defenses than most champions entering that range, along with far more counters to his damage than most marksmen. Again, you're going on yet another tangent by picking up on a detail that has little to no relevance to the original point.
Peel away his tankiness and he'll simply die. His tankiness is essential to his job, his damage is essential to his job.
It is relevant to the point because giving Graves early game scrapping power with the advantages of a marksman has been bad for game balance.
Teridax681 votesI didn't say to remove his tankiness completely, I said that, at his baseline, he's meant to become situationally durable but still present opportunities where he's fragile and exposed. Again, what is the point you are trying to make?
Zorasama1 votesI always think Draven could be manaless if they tweak his W a bit. Like, punish him even more when he can't catch axes, but otherwise he can permanently spam W.
67chrome1 votesWould it be so bad if we had a manaless marksman? It could open a few doors, I feel.
There'd be a lot of design issues to tackle.
General pattern I've notcied with manaless champions is they tend to auto-attack with abilities. Riven's Broken Wing's, Garen's Judgement, Rumble's Flame-Spitter, Katarina's Bouncing Blade, Shyvana's Twin-Bite. In several cases, manaless champions are in-between auto-attackers and casters, going more towards and auto-attack style but with really colorful, limited-duration steroids that do more intresting things than just buffing AD or AS, and in many cases aren't actually better, they're just more interesting.
The theme of auto-attacks being manaless is also pretty prevalent in a lot of auto-attack steroids on otherwise mana-heavy champions. Cho'Gath, Teemo, Vayne, Jax, Orianna, Fizz, Ekko, and a wide range of other mana users tend to get auto-attack steroid abilities at no mana cost.
Inversly: Mana is usually associated with nuking things from orbit. More power crammed into a shorter time-frame tends to incure larger mana costs. Champions like Annie and Veigar that cram 10 seconds of damage into 2 seconds have pretty heavy mana costs, as do champions that get an exceptional boost to things like range, AoE, or utilities.
The major issue I see with this pattern is the kind of lukewarm and lackluster abilities a manaless marksman would need so there skill-spam is essentially auto-attacking with abilities, on a champion that has extremely powerful and potent auto-attacks.
Ezreal is already halfway to that spot with his kit in regards to Mystic Shot as well, which costs a small chunk of mana for a 550 range increase. And with that skill, Ezreal's broken jungle and tank itemization for a wide range of champions due to Mystic Shot spam being that powerful. Ezreal's Essence Flux is also one of the worst QWE skills in the game, at least given the rest of his kit, making Ezreal's power-budget pretty small as-is while still being a mana user.
Beyond that: manaless champions often have mana so there early game isn't complete and total garbage, or in a few cases so their early game is extremely strong. Which is mostly a sorry you're melee in a game where towers/minions/CSing/Trading in-lane all heavily favor range" kind of deal.
Caitlyn has an exceptionally strong lanning phase due to her auto-attack range alone, and the huge disparity between melee and range has kept bot-lane carry a ranged-exclusive club outside of Mordekaiser's blatantly overpowered rework.
Which runs into a huge issue when considering Marksman tend to have the best late-game of any champion archetype. Allowing early to be very strong runs into basic overpowered issues. Restrained a little, you're still looking at top-lane being a very juicy lane to abuse with extreeme lack of resources.
I wouldn't say it's impossible to make a manaless marksman, buuut chances are pretty high you'd break some part of the game with such an addition while just not having the power-budget to make anything interesting enough to merrit breaking the game.
Hullabaloo9071 votesI remember reading somewhere that this was unlikely, and that range+no resources presents some basic counter play problems. Think a gnar who is always mini.
Strawberrycocoa1 votesA manaless marksmen would just auto win any kind of attrition-battle the same way manalessness/energy users can out last just about every single mage. Wait for their mana to go out then enjoy your free kill, every single time.
Kai Guy1 votes
Have both seen some play As marksmen.
Athenes Lulu1 votesADCs have mana mainly because they need to have a limit on managing resources, especially since their main source of damage comes from good ol' autoattacking, even on caster ADCs.
Since botlane is primarily trying to outsustain each other, a manaless ADC would outclass nearly everyone else unless his/her early game is super undertuned.
is the closest thing to a "manaless ADC", and his "sustain" is already godly.
support is nearly impossible to kick out of lane.
And if you know how oppressive it is to deal with ADCs in URF (looking at you 
), you would get what I'm talking about, too. Too bad he wasn't as oppressive because whatever you play is also manaless.
Have you heard that story where total biscuit gave his chance to go to riot to help design a champion to a make a wish person. Guy came in and his idea was Kadarin. Kadarin was a marksman that used rumbles heat system and when he overheated he lost a ton of range but got a ton of Attack Speed. Riot played around with it and apparently one of Kadarin abilities is being pitched on an upcoming champion. Gaming Curious has a video on it on YouTube.
