Really dissapointed crit is still RNG reliant even after Marskman Update

Poske·Oct 31, 2015·54 votes·4,269 views

Why? Because When I play Jinx all I crit is minions.. which is useless But when others play JINX they Rocket CRIT 5 times few targets in a freaking row. And guess what Super mega death rocket indirectly scales of lucky crits

**THAT IS NOT fuc-king OK **

My luck is not that bad I do crit champions ocassionaly When they have like 10 hp left

Random number generator (Which is not fully random ) IS toxic mechanic for a moba

NO I am not saying riot Should remove crit NO I am not saying they should "flaten" out crits to some wierd %dmg increase (Crits should be big numbers) ALL I WANT IS RNG PART OUT OF IT

YASUO has horrible issues with his kit mainly because of extra Crit LUCK Garen E crits but any crit item sucks for Garen (This might change)

MARSKMAN UPDATE? And crit_** RNG**_ is left untouched?

I guess WE LL HAVE OUR RNG LORDS UNTIL 2365

League of Legends is like a sport(Esport) nowdays. Lets remove the luck factor

Here we at Riot think That sport should be LUCK RELIANT SO THEY ARE changing Essence reaver. And they ll put DOUBLE RNG IN IT

RIOT> Essence reaver now heals mana WHEN YOU CRIT "knocks the table of"

Lets ADD RNG TO SURRENDER VOTE TO . OH AND lets force IT IN only 10% OF GAMES cuz you know RNG. Lets ADD rng TO Smite now it has 5% chance to GIVE YOU A buff WHICH HAS 50% chance to kill you

80 Comments

Byakuya KuchikiOct 31, 201519 votes

Why? Because When I play Jinx all I crit is minions.. which is useless But when others play JINX they Rocket CRIT 5 times few targets in a freaking row.

this is what we called negative biasm. you only remember the bad things like the enemy critting 5 times in a row and you not critting 6 times in a row. also whats so wrong with rng? plus its pseudo rng so its not even like its truely random

BlkGolemOct 31, 20154 votes

"also whats so wrong with rng?"

Riot has been trying to get rid of "luck" and rng factors for a while (phage as an example), and crit being the largest one especially when many adcs are being reworked and lots of things in the game being changed, but the rng factor isn't being touched. It wouldn't make sense for crit to be turned into on hit damage, no, but it also shouldn't continue to be rng. I don't have a huge problem with it but I see his point is all.

IcyPepperOct 31, 20153 votes

You're forgetting the part where he mentioned it was pseudo rng.

It's not 100% true rng, making it only reliable when you purposely build for it (as opposed to buying one crit item and calling it good).

xFrostKnightxOct 31, 20152 votes

"Build Crit?. OUTRAGIOUS!!!. Crit's on everything men, Asap!!" - Riot Ceo

But yeah, there's crit on almost all AD items now, so I don't know why OP (or his goon squad) are complaining.

IcyPepperOct 31, 20154 votes

People generally don't like RNG factors.

The only reason I see crit not being removed is a way to gate crit builds early game, and make them obscenely strong in the late-game.

If crit was changed to boost your damage proportionally overall... blegh.

Not to mention that certain champions have pretty decent interactions with crit. Ashe comes to mind, and Grave's rework will synergize with crit. If we could get more of that, it would be cool.

Also Vel'Koz crit animation is the greatest thing in the world.

xFrostKnightxNov 1, 20151 votes

Surprisingly, Vel'Koz AD will become another ap => Ad viable champion with the new items while keeping his True damage passive.

Speaking of which, Graves is getting a nerf already for his rework. He's chunking towers too easily (they removed the armour on towers) and he can 1v1 almost anyone early game-mid. He can 1v1 Late game and always win, but not against assassins.

PoskeNov 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

People generally don't like RNG factors.

The only reason I see crit not being removed is a way to gate crit builds early game, and make them obscenely strong in the late-game.

If crit was changed to boost your damage proportionally overall... blegh.

Not to mention that certain champions have pretty decent interactions with crit. Ashe comes to mind, and Grave's rework will synergize with crit. If we could get more of that, it would be cool.

Also Vel'Koz crit animation is the greatest thing in the world.

Anivia Salto crit mate..

HentRexNov 1, 20151 votes

More so the early game you know that Tryndamere who starts item 1051 hoping to get get lucky. XD

PoskeNov 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You're forgetting the part where he mentioned it was pseudo rng.

It's not 100% true rng, making it only reliable when you purposely build for it (as opposed to buying one crit item and calling it good).

I didnt forget to mention it just check for () you see me say which is not entirely random

I have enough experience to say not entirely random is still unhealthy );

IcyPepperNov 1, 20152 votes

I dunno, I can see the purpose for it.

WIth a pseudo RNG, making it less random, you need more of it to actually be reliable. Thing is, it "gates" damage output in the early game and increases it greatly lategame as opposed to a system that would linearly increase your dps (because then it would benefit any and every AD bruisers).

I suppose it would be kind of the opposite of (flat) armor penetration, which is strong early but falls off later if people build armor and you don't have LW. Crit is the way it is because if it was linear (which has been suggested before, like 10% crit should be 10% extra aa damage or something), trinity force warrior junglers would be too stronk. A lucky crit with low crit chance is deadly in itself, but at least it's not reliable enough to count on for a brief gank.

However, disregarding that, what system would replace it if we got rid of crit? The way the game is balanced at the moment means we couldn't remove it without serious repercussions, and after this season I think everyone is honestly kind of tired of dramatic changes done in a short amount of time without proper testing beforehand.

Earl EulrichNov 1, 20152 votes

plus its pseudo rng so its not even like its truely random

and this is just uneducated bullshit. Computers can´t produce true Randomness, so surly it´s not truely random - it´s random enough to be luck reliant though. And that´s exactly the problem with it in a competitive game that should relay on the players skill, not on his connection to some higher being that rolls the dice.

SmithneyNov 1, 20152 votes

I could talk about how dice are rolled with every simple action we do in our lives, but that goes far beyond the topic discussed here. When it comes to game design, randomness prevents a game from remaining stale. It changes the order of actions so that a skilled response is required when something doesn't go according to the plan. RNG and randomness don't go against skill, they provide more room for it, but they are also very treacherous tools to use. Skipping the delicate context, RNG behaves justly if you spread it across a large number of dice rolls. That's why games like Heartstone turn out fair despite all the inherent randomness. Because if you are consistent with your victories, losses and victories caused by RNG even out in a large scope. One example for all, DotA 2 isn't afraid of true randomness despite also being a MOBA, yet the way the game is created smooths out all the RNGeesus within the game.

redniwediSOct 31, 20157 votes

Why are you disappointed though? Riot never said they were going to change it. It sounds like you're disappointed that your hope for what might change did not pan out, rather than having anything to do with Riot.

If that's the case I don't quite get why you're being so hostile about it.

CeridranOct 31, 20155 votes

[deleted]

SmithneyNov 1, 20152 votes

I think people cannot see the benefits of randomness. When talking about RNG, the first thing on our mind is its potential inconsistency, but we overlook the mathematical details that drive it. Barring the fact that even our entire universe is likely driven by chaos, randomness isn't inherently bad, it just feels unreliable. And as humans, we aren't used to relying on the unreliable (duh), which makes us dislike RNG-based mechanics.

If you are interested, there is a great video that can hopefully explain you the ins and outs of RNG in games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ZI9kMsvRQ

dunder killOct 31, 20155 votes

Why does 35% feel like 70%?

Tryndamere

Zair UmbrasNov 1, 20152 votes

Because Tryndamere is meant to make you want to kill yourself. That's his Kit. It's not a kit meant to win the game, it's a kit to make you want to kill yourself. Just like Shaco and Teemo!

SeargentAnusOct 31, 20154 votes

Why not do something like how Fallout 4 is dealing with it. Each attack will give you a crit chance %. So lets say you have a meter to fill. Once you fill 100% crit chance you'll crit. Hitting an attack with 40% crit chance will fill that bar to 40%. Hitting again will be 80%, and then hitting again will cause a crit and jump the meter to 20%.

HaIlMonitorOct 31, 20153 votes

Wouldn't that just make all adc's have caits passive?

VerxintOct 31, 20152 votes

Headshots on the PBE scale with crit chance and damage, like ashe's passive, as well as 50% armor pen they have on live. I think they're distinct enough.

Sightless66Oct 31, 20151 votes

So, all ad carries have cait's passive but cait's hurts more? Very distinct.

Also, the tooltip for her ability no longer lists the bonus armor penetration. I don't know if it was removed but it seems likely.

AnidanOct 31, 20151 votes

'so all ad carries will have Ashe's passive but Ashe's slows? Very distinct.' (a lot of people want Ashe's passive every AD Carry, basically)

Everything sounds pretty similar when you boil it down to its most basic form. It's the finer details that we're supposed to differentiate things with a lot of the time.

Sightless66Oct 31, 20151 votes

The finer detail is "more damage". Sounds boring.

AnidanNov 1, 20152 votes

It's for crit. Crit is only ever more damage. It's always going to sound boring. We're not trying to make crit itself exciting, we're trying to eliminate RNG that can screw someone over for no reason other than a number didn't pop up in their favor.

Sightless66Nov 1, 20153 votes

I understand that, but if that is the only goal, we can accomplish that without introducing new boring mechanics and forcing people to play around them.

Make crit a %increase to autoattack damage. We get literally the same expected dps as before, gameplay stays the same, there is no rng, and no one gets cait's passive forced hamfistedly into their gameplay pattern.

AnidanNov 1, 20153 votes

So... Ashe's passive without the slow.

Sightless66Nov 1, 20152 votes

Exactly. Much better than Cait's passive.

It seriously does work better though.

PoskeOct 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why not do something like how Fallout 4 is dealing with it. Each attack will give you a crit chance %. So lets say you have a meter to fill. Once you fill 100% crit chance you'll crit. Hitting an attack with 40% crit chance will fill that bar to 40%. Hitting again will be 80%, and then hitting again will cause a crit and jump the meter to 20%.

http://m.leagueofreplays.com/post/153056

Cant seem to find original link

I gave suggestion for every single critical strike item

2Charmnot2CharmOct 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why not do something like how Fallout 4 is dealing with it. Each attack will give you a crit chance %. So lets say you have a meter to fill. Once you fill 100% crit chance you'll crit. Hitting an attack with 40% crit chance will fill that bar to 40%. Hitting again will be 80%, and then hitting again will cause a crit and jump the meter to 20%.

Because Tryndamere . I heard it used to work like that but players were abusing it so they made it random back in season 2.

DiskJOct 31, 20153 votes

it'd be really neat if different champions had different conditions to proc crit, none of them reliant on rng (for example like ashe)

WulfyNov 1, 20153 votes

Are you trying to actually argue luck has 0% place in traditional sports? Do you...do you watch traditional sports?

Earl EulrichNov 1, 20152 votes

so...which sport strives for luck being a factor exactly? luck in sports is only a factor because it´s unavoidable in the instances it occurs - for lol though it wouldn´t be a problem to avoid the mechanic being based on RNG. Either that or you fully embrace it and bring back dodge and add some spellcrit ontop...everything else is hypocritical.

AuryielOct 31, 20152 votes

I dunno what's so hard about making it so crit items give you a number of ''crit stacks'' and when you reach 100 your AA crits

And you get leftover stacks if your crit chance is not something like 50 or 25 or 20

Ex : You have 40% crit chance

Attack 1 : +40 stacks Attack 2 : +40 stacks Attack 3 : crit and + 20 stacks

Sightless66Oct 31, 20155 votes

Because it majorly alters landing for all these champions by giving them a new mechanic that they all use in the same way. Every adc now plays with a "build stacks and poke the enemy laner" mechanic.

The point of the marksman rework is to differentiate the champions, not homogenize them anymore than they already are. It would be fine out of lane but it would make champions significantly more similar in the early game.

AuryielOct 31, 20152 votes

Every other class works with similar mechanics that are tied to items. Why is it unacceptable to impose the same thing on Marksman? They should differentiate themselves through their kits. Besides, crit in lane is very rare.

I also think it would make fighting as an AD carry more interesting. Sure, it introduces a Caitlyn-like play pattern, but what's so wrong with that? I mean whenever you build Shiv you already have this mechanic introduced. I don't see AD carries being all the same because of Shiv.

Every AP assassin uses Zhonya's in roughly the same way. Get in, deal damage, put yourself in stasis and then get out. They still play differently. Katarina, Diana, Fizz and Kassadin are not similar in how they play. They all have their tricks and perfect engage opportunities because of the differences between their kits. If a simple item mechanic is enough to homogenize ad carries, then the numerous reworks are all failures.

Sightless66Oct 31, 20153 votes

First, crit in lane won't be rare if it gives this kind of poking power. It will be bought as a first or second component every game. Make it reliable and let me get the full benefit from it in a semi-guaranteed nature, and I will always have it on my first back no matter what.

Second, you are right that champions should differentiate themselves with their kits, and that is exactly why I hate this proposal. It adds a new mechanic which comes online very early, and can actually be more influential to play style than a champion's kit in the early game.

The difference between your examples and the crit is how influential the crit would be and how early it happens. Shiv does not take precedence over my kit in decision making. Zhonya's gives options. This crit refocused champions around poking when that would not normally be what I would do, and I do not have the option to ignore it because there is so much power in it that I will have to buy crit. It limits my decisions and forces me into the same play style on every adc to a degree that no other class has to put up with, and I fucking hate that. I'll take rng bullshit over boring homogeny anyday.

AuryielNov 1, 20151 votes

You assume that this change would happen without making access to crit different than what it is now

You do know that there are levers such as gold costs and build paths, yes? There's no rule set in stone that says crit can and should be available on basic items.

Honestly, the lack of willingness to overhaul crit is just saddening. It's like people can't even imagine crit being a mechanic similar to Rylai's slow where it can only effectively be taken into account past a certain stage of the game without huge drawbacks. What I mean by that is that Rylai's has a substantial cost attached to it AND it cannot be bought as a first major item without sacrificing something, most often the mana regen and/or CDR that almost every mage simply needs. Crit is, after all, one of the AD multipliers out there, but it is by far the worst designed one. It should be treated differently. Make it so if you want crit you need to complete a big ticket item. There goes your ''boring homogeny'' in lane AND WOW we just got rid of the rng bullshit too in exchange for more reliable damage, which BY THE WAY, is a good thing for everyone involved and introduces new ways to play, especially in team fights.

But I guess losing a trade because someone's crit cloak just gave them a 100 damage edge in a close fight is fun and totally skill based and is way, way better than alternatives.

Sightless66Nov 1, 20152 votes

But I guess losing a trade because someone's crit cloak just gave them a 100 damage edge in a close fight is fun and totally skill based and is way, way better than alternatives.

Oh, is that the problem? Well then, let me give you a solution that's just better. Make crit a % increase to autoattack damage. You get literally the same expected damage on every item and on every champion, and balance and playstyle don't change.

If the goal is just making crit not random, this is a better idea in every way. It's simpler, has less effect on the game, and doesn't force everyone into similar actions. The only thing you lose is the big numbers when a crit happens, and that means nothing to me.

The thing is, your idea necessitates not only messes with build paths, but it still has potential to introduce boring gameplay. You're still encouraged to build up stacks and then jump on someone for a burstier trade, and everyone still has to play around that in exactly the same way. That's a huge mechanic no matter when it comes into the game. On top of that, it still does matter for the laning phase, because you can finish a crit item in the laning phase easily enough. You don't even have to rush a big-ticket item like an IE to get crit (and we can't just restrict it to the big-ticket items because then we get that whole "the items with the best stats are always best" problems that AD carries are only just only now starting to escape from"), so you could even pick it up earlier and force trades with it, and if that's an option it will immediately become the single best option because that's how strong this goddamn mechanic is.

We'd have to change sooooo much to get this working healthily in the game. We'd have to rebalance absolutely everything, and the end result isn't even interesting. Does anyone actually want a Cait passive on everyone? You obviously don't. You're making a huge deal of how important getting rid of rng is but you've never once defended the actual mechanic as being interesting by itself. Getting rid of RNG is the real objective, and we don't need this to do that.

Keep it simple. Keep it easy. Don't introduce boring stuff. Just derandomize crit. A % increase to autoattack damage is the way to go.

Oh, and just to wrap it up, I'll still take losing or winning a trade because someone's crit cloak randomly gave them 100 extra damage over the stacking mechanic anyday. It may not be skill based, but at least it's not actively boring and it makes a difference rarely enough that I can just ignore it (no ignoring the boring stacking mechanic).

AuryielNov 1, 20151 votes

There's literally no way to play around a steady % damage increase. It's just the same as pure AD, except it scales harder with the uncounterable AAs, whereas AD also scales with skills that can be missed or dodged.

It's more snowbally than the way current crit is because it's too reliable. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have the current crit system that is TOO unreliable and can potentially upset games based on nothing more than luck.

By the way I'm not trying to defend my idea because you are obviously 100% against it and I see no point in arguing about that. You think it's boring, I don't. Oh well.

As for the whole ''we'd have to rebalance everything'' and the ''it's so OP it would always be the best option'' those are such gross exaggeration that it's just funny.

Sightless66Nov 1, 20152 votes

There's literally no way to play around a steady % damage increase. It's just the same as pure AD, except it scales harder with the uncounterable AAs, whereas AD also scales with skills that can be missed or dodged.

You don't play around stat increases. You don't play around higher AD values, higher AP values, or anything like that. You play around. It's also not any change from things are right now.

It's more snowbally than the way current crit is because it's too reliable.

A little bit, but less than you'd think. It's reliable, but that doesn't actually make it significantly more snowbally. There is a small effect, but crit on live actually already supports the person who is ahead. Those are the characters who can take a crit early in a fight and keep going long enough to actually, and they're less likely to be forced out of fight or a laning situation by a solitary case of bad luck. The number of situations where crit actually gives an actionabley favorable fight outcome to the person who is significantly behind are actually so few on live that this doesn't change much.

Your system actually adds to the snowballing a lot more (at least, for laning it does). That actually has The person most able to take advantage of the poking is the one who is strong enough to be able to risk a fight breaking out. If I'm behind, I can't go up to poke just because the crit is ready because I can't fight him even with it unless there is a positioning mistake (whereas on live I can just wait for the positioning mistake), but he can load a crit and zone me with it because I can't stand taking that burst no matter what. The number of situations where someone who is ahead benefits from having crit actually increases significantly with this system.

Once people get out of lane, it's effectively just the same thing as the straight derandomized system because you'll be getting crits every 2-3 hits at least (meaning, you'll have less of a time when there is a damage disparity between the average DPS and the real damage at that point in time). So, as

By the way I'm not trying to defend my idea because you are obviously 100% against it and I see no point in arguing about that.

I'm 100% against it because I've thought it out every time it's been proposed before. If the only goal is removing RNG, then the only advantage to your system is that it keeps big numbers. The only way your system is better is if you like the big numbers or if you really like the stacking mechanic for the sake of the stacking mechanic. Prove me wrong. I'm open to the possibility of being wrong. Are you?

Seriously man, give me more credit than that. Don't start thinking that I'm just irrationally against this just because I disagree extremely strongly with you. I'm giving you more credit than that.

If you still don't want to argue for your system with me, that's fine too. It's just a debate on the internet. You don't have to keep going with it if you don't want to, and you don't need any reason to not want to.

As for the whole ''we'd have to rebalance everything'' and the ''it's so OP it would always be the best option'' those are such gross exaggeration that it's just funny.

No, that's the best part. They're not even exaggerations. Give me the ability to get the full value of critical strikes by preloading a crit, and I will force it into a build as early as possible because I can get assured value out of it in a fight, and I'll add it to my guaranteed burst combo as an assassin. You have to rebalance around that because it is a pretty big increase, and that will take a lot of work.

AuryielNov 1, 20151 votes

Actually you can definitely play around higher AP values since AP boosts what is in most cases, by nature, unreliable. AD is sort of a middle ground here. It boosts basic attacks, so no you can't really play around that. However, some of AD's value (especially on a character per character basis) is put into how much power it gives to more unreliable parts of your kit. A great example here would be Graves. It's totally possible for a Graves who outstats you to lose a trade if he misses everything because a lot of his kit's power is put into his Q and R burst.

If crit was a simple % increase on your AAs and it was priced in such a way that it's gold efficient, then it's automatically better because it's 100% reliable. Which, yes, is similar to AS except of course AS requires more of a long term commitment than simply hit and run, so it's more balanced because of that.

As for the snowballing with a stacking mechanic, the scenario you are depicting means you're not CS'ing and/or pushing. You're effectively sacrificing something to zone away your opponent with your crit. This could also be solved by making your stacks fall off after a certain period of inactivity.

As for why I think it's not a bad system, it's pretty simple, really. It's not because I like big numbers, I don't even play AD carries. It's because I do think having access to a form of burst over constant DPS is something worth preserving in AD carries in some way. I just don't think it should be RNG based. Ideally, there would more of a performance disparity over time between crit builds and AD/AS builds, with crit builds pulling ahead early and falling off after a few seconds of combat, but THAT would require a lot of work. That's mostly wishful thinking.

For assassins, there are very easy ways to make them not want to build crit and/or make them sacrifice something if they want crit. That can be as simple as putting crit mostly on AS items or are as complicated as making new assassin items that are more appealing. Your assessment of this system's strength is honestly simply too hasty. You sound like Riot when they make a change and they go ''Oh boy, this is gonna be OP'' and turns out nobody even cares. Ex : When they made pre-rework's Cass' E count as a single target spell. Did she suddenly become blatantly overpowered? No. Just because something sounds really good on paper doesn't mean it will be that good in practice. Also, once again, you seem to be under the impression that it's impossible to tune crit in a way that it's not overpowered. That seems rather unimaginative.

Finally, yes I do think you are exaggerating when you say everything would need to be rebalanced. We're talking about crit, something that is almost solely used on AD carries. We're not talking about removing Flash or towers. THAT would shake League to its core. Crit? Not so much. Is it a lot of work? Yes. But that's sort of what the pre-season is for.

Oh and btw, I am also a fan of the idea of making crit a % damage increase. I think it's by far a better system than what we currently have. I just don't think it's the only option. I see pros and cons to each system and I'm not particularly fond of either. I really just think the current system is ridiculously outdated and needs to be removed.

Sightless66Nov 1, 20151 votes

Actually you can definitely play around higher AP values since AP boosts what is in most cases, by nature, unreliable. AD is sort of a middle ground here. It boosts basic attacks, so no you can't really play around that. However, some of AD's value (especially on a character per character basis) is put into how much power it gives to more unreliable parts of your kit. A great example here would be Graves. It's totally possible for a Graves who outstats you to lose a trade if he misses everything because a lot of his kit's power is put into his Q and R burst.

I really disagree with this entire part. The basic premise here pretty much says "autoattacks have very little counterplay", so anything that boosts autoattacks has no counterplay. I think that's a fair description of your argument. Well, I disagree. You can punish someone for autoattacking. You can zone them out from it, you can. Abilities carry advantages that autoattacks don't have, and those advantages can be used against autoattacks. That does represent counterplay.

The point is, stat changes don't mess with this at all. Having more AP or more autoattack damage or whatever doesn't give you anything more to play against, because you still play against the enemy champion in the same way. I'm going to play the same way against a Syndra with 0 AP as I will against one with 1,000 AP (assuming I have the same relative strength as them at the time). AP doesn't give me anything to play against. Similarly, I'll play the same against Graves whether or not he has crit, because the key value of "autoattacks are a threat" doesn't change significantly enough for my playstyle to be modified. The only way it could change is if he completely gave up on attack speed and went for a pure AD burst thing where he could barely hurt afterwards.... but he's not going to do that.

If crit was a simple % increase on your AAs and it was priced in such a way that it's gold efficient, then it's automatically better because it's 100% reliable.

Again, yes, it is slightly better, but by much less than you would think.

As for the snowballing with a stacking mechanic, the scenario you are depicting means you're not CS'ing and/or pushing.

It actually doesn't. I can zone someone away from their last hits at a point when their minions aren't dying, get 5 more autoattacks quickly to get my stacks up once my minions die and theirs are at risk of dying, and then zone them off for another few seconds. Their only time of entry is when I have 0 stacks, because even starting a fight when I have half stacks will be enough for me to get a crit by the end of it. I do this right now on live with Caitlyn, so I can completely guarantee you I'd do it with crit.

This could also be solved by making your stacks fall off after a certain period of inactivity.

Not for the laning scenario, no. I only have to zone you off for about 5 seconds to deny major amounts of farm. Have a delay shorter than that and you majorly screw with teamfighting because someone can get zoned off for longer than that. You also introduce the problem of backloading all damage, which has a small risk of weaking carries in the midgame.

My problem here is, this is another small change, on top of all the other small changes we'd need to make this system work, and the end result isn't even better than the % increase.

For assassins, there are very easy ways to make them not want to build crit and/or make them sacrifice something if they want crit. That can be as simple as putting crit mostly on AS items or are as complicated as making new assassin items that are more appealing.

I wouldn't use the phrase "as simple as" to describe designing a lot of new items and only putting crit on AS items (mostly isn't good enough. Even one item is an opening). Those kind of redesigns aren't simple, That's a lot of redesigning that would have to happen. We'd have to rework the AD items that currently have crit, we'd have to rework the AS items, and we'd probably have to introduce multiple new items that are appealing enough to assassins to override the benefits of a guaranteed crit, and then we'd have to rebalance them around their synergies with their new items.

Also, just having attack speed won't stop me from buying a crit item if even the smallest ability to preload crits. I mean, think about it. It's 100% of my AD as frontloaded damage. That's worth more damage than one AD or armor penetration item, and it's not like attack speed is completely worthless just because I'm an assassin.

That's all a lot of work. This really is going to be a hard and long problem to deal with. And that's kind of my point. We'd need a ton of work to implement this system, we'd have to redesign a lot of items, and for what? There's no benefit that we can't get with a % damage increase.

I just don't think it should be RNG based.

Then the % system is better. Outside of big numbers I don't see a single thing the stacking system does that the % system can't do better. Seriously, I don't see a single one. I don't see any pro that the % system can't match with less work and less time consumed. Yeah, we could force the stacking system to work with enough time and effort, but if there are only additional costs and no added benefit, then it's not actually a good option. I think when you really list out the pros and cons, the stacking system has a ton of cons that the % system doesn't have, and it has no pros over the % system. As far as I'm concerned, that means it's not an option.

PoskeNov 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I really disagree with this entire part. The basic premise here pretty much says "autoattacks have very little counterplay", so anything that boosts autoattacks has no counterplay. I think that's a fair description of your argument. Well, I disagree. You can punish someone for autoattacking. You can zone them out from it, you can. Abilities carry advantages that autoattacks don't have, and those advantages can be used against autoattacks. That does represent counterplay.

The point is, stat changes don't mess with this at all. Having more AP or more autoattack damage or whatever doesn't give you anything more to play against, because you still play against the enemy champion in the same way. I'm going to play the same way against a Syndra with 0 AP as I will against one with 1,000 AP (assuming I have the same relative strength as them at the time). AP doesn't give me anything to play against. Similarly, I'll play the same against Graves whether or not he has crit, because the key value of "autoattacks are a threat" doesn't change significantly enough for my playstyle to be modified. The only way it could change is if he completely gave up on attack speed and went for a pure AD burst thing where he could barely hurt afterwards.... but he's not going to do that.

Again, yes, it is slightly better, but by much less than you would think.

It actually doesn't. I can zone someone away from their last hits at a point when their minions aren't dying, get 5 more autoattacks quickly to get my stacks up once my minions die and theirs are at risk of dying, and then zone them off for another few seconds. Their only time of entry is when I have 0 stacks, because even starting a fight when I have half stacks will be enough for me to get a crit by the end of it. I do this right now on live with Caitlyn, so I can completely guarantee you I'd do it with crit.

Not for the laning scenario, no. I only have to zone you off for about 5 seconds to deny major amounts of farm. Have a delay shorter than that and you majorly screw with teamfighting because someone can get zoned off for longer than that. You also introduce the problem of backloading all damage, which has a small risk of weaking carries in the midgame.

My problem here is, this is another small change, on top of all the other small changes we'd need to make this system work, and the end result isn't even better than the % increase.

I wouldn't use the phrase "as simple as" to describe designing a lot of new items and only putting crit on AS items (mostly isn't good enough. Even one item is an opening). Those kind of redesigns aren't simple, That's a lot of redesigning that would have to happen. We'd have to rework the AD items that currently have crit, we'd have to rework the AS items, and we'd probably have to introduce multiple new items that are appealing enough to assassins to override the benefits of a guaranteed crit, and then we'd have to rebalance them around their synergies with their new items.

Also, just having attack speed won't stop me from buying a crit item if even the smallest ability to preload crits. I mean, think about it. It's 100% of my AD as frontloaded damage. That's worth more damage than one AD or armor penetration item, and it's not like attack speed is completely worthless just because I'm an assassin.

That's all a lot of work. This really is going to be a hard and long problem to deal with. And that's kind of my point. We'd need a ton of work to implement this system, we'd have to redesign a lot of items, and for what? There's no benefit that we can't get with a % damage increase.

Then the % system is better. Outside of big numbers I don't see a single thing the stacking system does that the % system can't do better. Seriously, I don't see a single one. I don't see any pro that the % system can't match with less work and less time consumed. Yeah, we could force the stacking system to work with enough time and effort, but if there are only additional costs and no added benefit, then it's not actually a good option. I think when you really list out the pros and cons, the stacking system has a ton of cons that the % system doesn't have, and it has no pros over the % system. As far as I'm concerned, that means it's not an option.

there is a way

To make Crit non Rng reliant because that sucks OH also we wouldnt have to make % system because I have better solution

Just find a link I posted in this thread. And tell me what you think about that system? Big numbers > Check (Its important ) Healthy amount of Rng on some items > Check Dmg is not predictable > Check You can control crits > check No luck based stuff > check

BeldoriNov 1, 20152 votes

I find it funny they want to do away with rng yet they turn around and state they don't want league to be too predictable than it already is so they are keeping crit. The BS Riot spews as of late really kills any credibility they had(what little they had at this point)

RebonackNov 1, 20152 votes

You don't need to get rid of %Crit to make it less random and game warping early on.

You just need to remove Brawler's Glove from the game and crit chance runes.

That would do away with the most odious crit cheese.

PoskeNov 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You don't need to get rid of %Crit to make it less random and game warping early on.

You just need to remove Brawler's Glove from the game and crit chance runes.

That would do away with the most odious crit cheese.

It wouldnt entirely solve an issue and I do not agree with it mainly because of awkward buildpaths

From what component did phantom dancer get that crit etc

Either fix Crits entirely or dont fix them... Fixing just a small issue is pointless

Mickey DonnerudoNov 1, 20151 votes

You're kidding right?

Phantom Dancer comes from Zeal.

Zeal has Crit.

The reason Phantom Dancer has so much crit on it is because they shifted 5% crit from Infinity Edge over to Phantom Dancer.

But you don't want to revert that, now do you?

PoskeNov 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mickey Donnerudo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NYThg4ji,comment-id=001500000000,timestamp=2015-11-01T18:09:19.534+0000)

You're kidding right?

Phantom Dancer comes from Zeal.

Zeal has Crit.

The reason Phantom Dancer has so much crit on it is because they shifted 5% crit from Infinity Edge over to Phantom Dancer.

But you don't want to revert that, now do you?

Yes but Rng is toxic at small ammounts as you say?

So from that logic Zeal is problematic item. We would have to buy toxic item in order to get strong tier 1 crit item -.- All I want is Rng part removed..

Ehm for some champions I want the revert and for some not.

And for your other post Yes If I do not crit minions in a while I am more likely to engage. I do keep the track of crit though it can still easly backfire me But imagine If tracking crit actually mattered.

You dont need any skill to shot some lucky crits on a champion. And since crits do whooping 800 dmg .. that can be game deciding based on luck

I like rng but its not for an esport moba