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Idea for Veigar E

Decrit··7 votes·673 views

I always was a supporter for a delayed E in the Veigar kit: istant stun that can get over 2s it' s not reallly something i call fair, even if it was among his main points of strength; while making it delayed surely added counterplay it added too much for some classes of champion, and at the same time made Veigar toothless in matter of counterplay against others ( like assassins). Also looks like these changes will be solidified for a while, as Meddler said, and they plan touches that does not go too much far from what we actually have.

While the Q change really helps his viability and his survival the E delay will probably still kneecap him against many and many matchups only for kit compositions, without taking in account E + W combo ( personally i think that it should be only situational and not a true cascade combo, but this is an other matter )... so I had this idea for him, and i would really like to know what do you think.

The proposal

The spell has the same aiming system, and it will generate a ring that will stun enemies on contact in X time ( X can be equal to 0.75 as it is in live or can change), but will not be totally delayed: starting from the point that is nearest to the casting champion, the ring will be "drawed" piece by piece orientated clockwise, generating the wall in the meantime and stunning enemies in contact. After this, the ring will be persistend for some seconds before fading away. This process can be visualized thanks to the new particle effect of the E, that consists on a circular smoke line that defines the perimeter only that is drawed instead of popping up.

This means not only that enemies will have an imminent threat to deal with, but there are 2 particular situations that i deem interesting:

-1 If Veigar casts the wall in a way that the starting drawing point is on an enemy ( that can be defined easily ) he will instantly stun him. The difference between this and the old stun is that the range in which it can be done is much, much shorter [1] and can be used only for really aggressive and risky plays or for clutch-saves.

-2 The enemy that stands in the farthest point of the circle will be stunned in X/2 seconds, so he is still able to pick up enemies far away while still having a react time.

The implications

Veigar will still not be able anymore to pick enemies from a long range and burn all cooldowns on them, but still has survival tools for ganking and gapclosing, plus a thrilling risky way to aggress enemies in lane. [1] remember that his actual range is 650 for the center of the ring and 375 the radius, so taking this data in mind he needs to target an enemy at 275 units away in order to stun it instantly! With the new changes he will have some range buffs but that will still be absurdly short, but i don' t think it as bad - after all it is foremost a survival precaution and only secondly an offensive one - and he can still use the sides of the ring aniway.

While the left side of the ring will be useful for flashy skills and be really fast, the right one will be the slowest - but not for this reason useless: it will have an huge impact in teamfight, as it does usually, with the consideration that enemies can be baited to go at the right of the caster - setting up places for ganks. Knowing this, what the enemy team will do?! Veigar will be able to use this opportunity to land W and Q without need of ccs?

I don' t want to indulge too much in this, toughts?

7 Comments

Stacona2 votes

The circular skill idea is actually good, and something I have done in some of my champion concepts--- but first and foremost it is good in the terms of being able to use it as a defensive tool for a close range stun to get away if you are skilled

BuCkeT SeiZureS1 votes

What do you think about this idea?

First. Reduce the stun at max rank. 2.0-2.25 is plenty, favoring the first option. Second, turn it into a linear skill shot. But have the circle have a small central pillar. What I think would be great is that he shoots an orb, similar to his q, that stops at the first enemy hit (minion or champion) after making contact, it will cause the event horizon to erupt. Giving the full circle with the center pillar stunning the target hit by the initial skill shot. Maybe you could even make it reactivate able in order for him to cause his cage to trigger wherever the orb currently is. Like a velkoz q or lissandra claw. I like this because it allows veigar to stun someone directly on top of him, gives warning to the enemy champion with its travel time, and still can be used creatively. You could even give the circumference portion of the circle the .75 sec delay and only have the center pillar stun immediately.

Decrit2 votes

Frankly? Just too much complex. Not only for reactivation and everything and for the focus needed but also because it' s a skillshot - something that won' t easily allow him to place the cage in choke strategic points and resulting in a not really intuitive targeting system. Also this is not a Veigar rework in terms of resources so they have to keep to a minimum the heavy changes... Sorry to break it this way but it' s just how i think about it >< the spell itself is good and could serve a really good use on a champion, but in Veigar case he needs something more akin to his old kit.

However i dig the stun reduction in favor for some more utility- after all is huge! Maybe more than a reductiona flattening - early valors are higher and end valors are lower. but that is a balancing issue

BuCkeT SeiZureS2 votes

Don't apologize. I asked for feedback. I talked about a change like this because veigar kinda needs a rework. His kit doesn't really flow anymore. I like lowering his stun duration to make his combo not guaranteed if they are stunned at max range. But I think he should be rewarded for stunning someone jumping on him, not punished. Honestly, his passive is lackluster, and they made his abilities expensive to counteract it. His Q is great now. I love it. His W needs reduction in fall time or it will be waveclear only. And his ult has such short range that it kinda clashes with every other ability. Veigars new E is great for zone control. But that's really it. If he was picked as someone to control an area, than it would be fine. But he has never been a defensive pick. His identity as a champion was an antimage. But he actually loses to most mages now. Especially mobile ones.

Tldr: Veigar needs a rework. His kit clashes with other abilities. They are putting band aids on this problem that will not fix anything.

Decrit2 votes

We see it a bit differently, for example i never considered him an anti-mage: yes there is a scaling on his ult but globally he is a burst mage, that works fine against mages assassins and carries. Actually i loathe the enemy ap scaling for that reason, and i really hoped that they would get rid of it - it' s not cool, not deep strategy wise and situational and does not feel right for his theme while still stealing power budget from the skill.

The passive has great moments too: is something not too much noticeable, from the age where passives were lighter, but it' s good to see the mana still running high while in low %, or roaming and getting the mana refunded hasty between lanes; not exceptional i agree, but not really useless.

However i agree on the new Q: is orgasmic. Never i would have thought that it would be so good, and i always expressed my concern about making it a skillshot! Not only useful or effective, but that feels good! About the W... i managed to get a lot of uses out of it without stuns, but requires an hella high skill/luck cap and is highly dependent on the enemy behavior in his complexity.

I don' t think he needs a rework - there are far worse offenders - but some more dedicate kit care would be really appreciated.

BuCkeT SeiZureS2 votes

First, I have to say, this is an awesome discussion we are having. On a different thread, the responses were "Nerf Veigar, he is OP." Or "Veigars stun is fine and should stay at 2.5 seconds. Also skill shots suck."

But I agree and disagree on some of your views. His passive, I think, should add into what Riot looks like they want. They seem to want Veigar to be a god late game, but struggle early on. I like this. I like it more than the "antimage" they tried early on.(I agree about removing the scaling on enemy AP). So instead of having a flat passive, I think it should scale with AP. Like saying it increases his total mama regen by 0+(.005 AP)% per 1% missing. So that early his mana regen is actually worse, but late it is much better.

No about his W. I think that the skill cap you discuss I very low. It is great waveclear, but any non CCed target should be able to avoid it. There is a little zoning it can offer, but not very much. I think it does need attention if they plan on leaving veigar with a .75 second delay on his E. At least to give him a chance to burst people that jump on him. I also think his ult needs work beyond the enemy AP scaling part. Its very short range compared to the rest of his kit now.

Decrit1 votes

You are right about W, but i like how it enforces the enemy to make a choice, also how it can drive them mad when you spam it inside a ring, still if it does not deliver it needs a change nonetheless.

About the passive... i dunno, people then will whine how it becomes too much hard in early game and how it get stomped hard and will ask for a fallback mechanism, that does not make him powerful but allows him to survive without clunky tactics. That should be a deeper argument.

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