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[Balance] @Riot: Aurelion Sol Nerfs- And WHY they're unacceptable.

Arakk01··46 votes·40,643 views
Champion.gg - Aurelion Sol Middle Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

EDIT: A core point of this thread is that the nerfs are too much ON THEIR OWN. They are justified, because they are points at which Sol is oppressive if successful, and do succeed at widening Sol's window of vulnerability AND reducing his potential damage output. However, as has been stated repeatedly here- double-tapping Q as a compensation buff would be the perfect place to compensate the champion. Let's focus on that: Double-tap Q for some power taken from W. Healthier, more interactive gameplay for Sol AND opponents.

AurelionSol Aurelion Sol. A champion I, personally, have spent more than 100 games mastering- close to 200 if you count PBE. Currently on the chopping block AGAIN- for basically that exact reason.

Aurelion Sol Celestial Expansion (W) cooldown increased to 6/5.5/5/4.5/4 from 6/5/4/3/2 Voice of Light (R) damage lowered to 150/250/350 from 200/300/400

Currently on the PBE, more SERIOUS nerfs to Aurelion Sol. Voice of Light is too powerful of a burst on a zone control champion- so I agree with rebalancing some or most of the power on that ability to other places- maybe letting him double tap his Q.

What I don't agree with is essentially CRIPPLING his W. Why do I say 'crippling'? Well, doubling the cooldown at max rank opens two of his weakest windows even wider. FIRSTLY, if a champion gets past his outer limit, a good Aurelion Sol's best answer to keep them from hitting him in the face is to close his ring of stars- usually applying Rylais if executed properly. This is followed by opening distance and opening his W again to turn the fight to his advantage- the other champion has to back off or try to go back in. This is a maneuver that saves my life more often than his ult, because it leaves his ult in reserve. Doubling his W cooldown makes it MUCH more difficult to pull off and opens a serious hole in his defenses. SECONDLY, Aurelion Sol's stars retreat to him for the duration of all CC. This toggles W off and puts it on cooldown- reducing his damage and zone of control until W returns, and forcing him to spend the toggle mana cost again. Effectively, nerfing W's cooldown is a double hit to Aurelion Sol at his primary weak points that can be mitigated by skillful play, chipping away at his skillcap instead of his base power.

Now, that might not make sense to some of you. Sounds like nonsense, right? Why would you reduce the rewards for player skill instead of just weakening an OP champ for everyone? It has to do with Aurelion Sol's statistics. Namely, his PLAY RATE. Sol has a 1.1% play rate mid and less than a 1% play rate COMBINED everywhere else. The only people who play the champion are players who MAIN the champion- if word gets out that he has a high winrate, it will go down DRASTICALLY. It's the same exact reason both Karthus and Galio have comparable winrates- almost noone plays them, so anyone faced with the champion has no idea how to deal with it; by contrast, the few who do play them have dedicated time and SEVERAL normal/pbe games to mastering the champion. If you look any individual player's statistics, the champions they play most often always have high winrates- my winrate with Sol support is currently sitting at 60%; considering I'm mid-bronze and my pick has a fair chance of instantly tilting teammates, that's fairly alright.

Reducing the availability of maneuvers that allow skillful Sol players to SURVIVE is not an acceptable answer. I agree with taking away some burst and sustained damage after being CC'd, but the turning power of rapid W toggling combined with Rylais is too much to take out of his kit. It basically forces CDR into his build ASAP, regardless of how well Sol can use the items. On the flipside, the ability to turn a survival mechanic into a combat advantage is fairly powerful, and the gap in damage after taking CC is meaningful enough.

On the off chance that this ISN'T motivated by a desire to keep Sol out of the LCS because his plays aren't always 'cool and flashy', I implore you: Either revert the W nerfs or compensate the champion by FIXING his Q. First: Fix its interaction with Wind Wall / Braum's Shield; the core should be the impact point, it shouldn't disappear the second the animation clips one of these effects. Second: Fix the bug that causes the ability to apply spell effects- like Spellthief's Edge- but not apply damage and/or the stun. This is one that quite often ruins fights for my entire team. Third: Allow double-tapping Sol's Q (or just cut the delay in half). This allows Q to be used more aggressively and more defensively- a way to make him interesting in the LCS. Allowing him to stun and retreat when someone gets on top of him is stronger defensively than his W maneuver, but doesn't pack the same fight-turning punch and closes the window to combo the abilities together; fixing his Q in this manner would make him less frustrating to play AS in the face of what would otherwise be a disgusting nerf.

160 Comments

RiotMeddler30 votes

When balancing champions one of the primary statistics we consider is a champion's win rate when played by experienced players. Comparing average win rates can be really misleading as you point out, so comparing win rates when all the players involved have a decent level of experience on a champion tends to be more valuable for champions once they've been out for at least a little while.

Looking at champion win rates for May when those champions are played by people with more than 30 games on them Aurelion Sol's got the highest experienced win rate in the game and still has a lower average number of games played than many other champions, given he hasn't been out as long. He was strong before 6.9, and we were talking about whether he was sufficiently out of line we needed to nerf him. The 6.9 changes, Catalyst in particular, have pushed him to a point where don't feel we can afford to leave him as strong as he is, even if his play rate isn't high.

In terms of the changes we're making in 6.10 we're hitting the ult damage because, as a powerful initiation and/or peel tool it doesn't need to be as high as it is on base damage. That makes it a good place to hit when we need to reduce overall power. The W change is aimed at giving a bit more reward to opponents who CC Aurelion Sol or force him to pull his stars in (increased time until he's got longer ranged sustained threat again). It's possible that will hit him harder than intended in terms of ability to deal with closing threats, that is meant to be a core weakness for him though. We'll assess post 6.10 ship, see where he ends up.

Regarding the bug you mention with his Q and Windwall/Braum do you have a video of the Q using its edge, instead of core, for Windwall/Braum shield collisions? Just had a look at that in game and I'm seeing the core used as expected. It does look like Braum E's blocking the CC on the Q though. It was scripted that to be consistent with Anivia's Q, that doesn't seem like the right approach here though, Braum at the least should be getting CC'd.

21028037DEL112 votes

I appreciate the explanation.

I am by no means an Aurelion Sol main and while I do approve of the nerf to his ultimate, I am concerned about this change:

Celestial Expansion (W) cooldown increased to 6/5.5/5/4.5/4 from 6/5/4/3/2

I think that it will be quite harsh, especially at later stages in the game when it will become difficult to react accordingly in the middle of a teamfight. I would suggest the following:

Celestial Expansion (W) cooldown increased to 6/5.25/4.5/3.75/3 from 6/5/4/3/2

I know Riot doesn't often go the route of more than one decimal place for ability cooldowns, but that 2 seconds late game turns into 4 seconds when you need to reactivate and it snowballs from there. It will still be fairly significant and won't make the Sol player feel gated by their own ability.

RiotMeddler9 votes

We'll look at him post patch. It's possible 3s is the correct spot, 4s is our best estimate at present though, hence we're going with that for 6.10.

Nefas4 votes

Since he is so new and the average number of played games is so low, should you take into account that learning to play against him might be an even steeper learning curve than learning to play him?

RiotMeddler6 votes

Playing against learning curve is something we keep an eye on, with the exception of pretty easy champions to play (e.g. Garen) we don't see steeper against than playing as curves though. Even then its debateable once you get more experienced players onto those champs who'll optimize things new players aren't in a position to take advantage of (champion specific learning curve versus general game knowledge learning curve that a champion can take advantage of e.g. wave management).

Stars Shaper2 votes

The only champion I can make a comparison with is Azir. Lets forget about his tons of bugs, he has always had a really high potential and this is shown recently (and before) by his high pickrate in professional play and overall performance. Azir, on the other hand, hasn't been nerfed a lot. The only real nerf I can recall is when you removed his passive CDR-to-AS and put an AS scaling in his W.

Is Aurelion Sol in a situation where waiting to things to go on for a bit longer would hurt more than nerfing him?

Jungle Lux God8 votes

I don't have the data to back this up, but this feels misinformed.

When you learn to play as a champion, you have the opportunity to play multiple games as the champion in succession. If you want, you could theoretically play 10 games as Aurelion Sol, and learn him rather quickly just by spamming Aurelion Sol.

Learning to play against a champion is a different story. In these cases, you cannot possibly choose to play against an Aurelion Sol in your next game. Maybe it takes 5 games to learn how to play against Aurelion Sol, but by definition those games are going to be spread out across 20-25 games, where you have 15-20 games in between where you don't learn how to play against Aurelion Sol.

In addition, when you play as a champion, you experience them for 100% of the time you are alive in game, where the playing against experience might be seen closer to 70-80% at the most, either because one player is dead or backed or there is impact going around the map, and that's only when you lane against the champion. If you aren't laning against the champion, you probably won't spend more than 50% of the game fighting the champion.

And that's doesn't account for differences in how different champions can deal with the champion (eg. artillery mages would want to hit Aurelion Sol outside his range while assassins would want to instantly close on him) and the skill differential between players (eg. a day 1 Aurelion Sol won't be able to position his stars properly for damage while a more experienced Aurelion Sol player would space the stars perfectly for damage, and there's no real value in learning to play against the champion when the former kind of player plays him), so you won't be guaranteed to be able to know 100% how to play against a champion even if you do play those 5 games.

steinberg3 votes

{quoted}

I don't have the data to back this up, but this feels misinformed.

When you learn to play as a champion, you have the opportunity to play multiple games as the champion in succession. If you want, you could theoretically play 10 games as Aurelion Sol, and learn him rather quickly just by spamming Aurelion Sol.

Learning to play against a champion is a different story. In these cases, you cannot possibly choose to play against an Aurelion Sol in your next game. Maybe it takes 5 games to learn how to play against Aurelion Sol, but by definition those games are going to be spread out across 20-25 games, where you have 15-20 games in between where you don't learn how to play against Aurelion Sol.

In addition, when you play as a champion, you experience them for 100% of the time you are alive in game, where the playing against experience might be seen closer to 70-80% at the most, either because one player is dead or backed or there is impact going around the map, and that's only when you lane against the champion. If you aren't laning against the champion, you probably won't spend more than 50% of the game fighting the champion.

And that's doesn't account for differences in how different champions can deal with the champion (eg. artillery mages would want to hit Aurelion Sol outside his range while assassins would want to instantly close on him) and the skill differential between players (eg. a day 1 Aurelion Sol won't be able to position his stars properly for damage while a more experienced Aurelion Sol player would space the stars perfectly for damage, and there's no real value in learning to play against the champion when the former kind of player plays him), so you won't be guaranteed to be able to know 100% how to play against a champion even if you do play those 5 games.

This is exactly how I see it too. Aurelion Sol is such a vastly different champ than any other champ that just the learning curve playing against him is far bigger than any other champ. I play Aurelion Sol quite a lot and probably 1/2 of the games i get all chat comments and questions on just exactly what aurelion sol even does. Im mid plat and people sit in his stars thinking they do nothing. I think until he gets more exposure he really can't be seen as op but merely as playing at an advantage of people not knowing the champ.

Plus, it seems odd that there are such nerfs against a rarely played champ (if he's rarely played then he isn't dominating soloq and making it without diversity). Seems like more time could be put into nerfing champs like ryze, maokai, karma. Seems premature.

Byuiso3 votes

{quoted} In terms of the changes we're making in 6.10 we're hitting the ult damage because, as a powerful initiation and/or peel tool it doesn't need to be as high as it is on base damage. That makes it a good place to hit when we need to reduce overall power. The W change is aimed at giving a bit more reward to opponents who CC Aurelion Sol or force him to pull his stars in (increased time until he's got longer ranged sustained threat again). It's possible that will hit him harder than intended in terms of ability to deal with closing threats, that is meant to be a core weakness for him though. We'll assess post 6.10 ship, see where he ends up.

From what I am understanding you're saying you aren't totally sure if the nerf will be too hard or not?

You mention the W change is to reward people who go at Aurelion but as of right now they are rewarded greatly. I am getting the idea is that Aurelion Sol isn't intended to stand a very good chance against melee champions in general, especially melee champions who have a gap closer, stun, CC, a pull. Getting inside of his stars is rewarding enough because Aurelion Sol can't do anything to punish them outside of contracting his stars which equate to less damage and even less after the nerf. Then his R which creates some space but it has been nerfed twice now.

You aren't helping the champion at all in providing some sort of survivability.

His Q doesn't work on melee champions. Because it can't be detonated early. He is now being punished on his 2 other spells for trying to combat melee in nerfing his W and R.

Frankly I'm not sure there is a champion who has a counter pool anywhere near Aurelions.

I could name at least 10 champions that are absolute nightmares to Aurelion. That shouldn't be acceptable.

I've seen it mentioned how Aurelion has higher win rates against Zed, Fizz and others.

Zed, Yasuo, Blitz , Fizz, LeBlanc, Yi, Ekko, Katarina, Darius, Thresh, Nautilus, Ahri, Alkali, Diana, Talon, Kassadin are all real tough challenges to Aurelion and those are some off the top of my head.

Against people who know Aurelion's kit and use these champions should dominate Aurelion without much trouble.

Stars Shaper5 votes

Thanks for the context, this is what we needed most of all.

I don't mind the nerf on his ultimate though this skill is also the only1 which gives him some reliable damage. I do mind a lot the W change, My fear is that with the these actual numbers he will be put out of fight the moment he gets CCed, 4 seconds are enough to end a fight in the current meta and having him giving no contribution because a CC hit him can make it really frustrating for the players and reward the enemies too much.

The Deckowner2 votes

The fact that aurelion sol's highest win rate playerbase is less experienced than other champions probably means his kit is very straight forward and lacks variations.

RiotMeddler33 votes

It means that he's the most recently released champion. Turns out that the longer a champion's been out the more likely it is people will have played a lot of games on it.

Skill curve wise he's got a pretty steep learning curve with a lot of things to optimize. Conceptually he's fairly simple, execution and use of those effects is much harder though. Singed and Rumble follow the same pattern (simple kit, top 10 learning curve).

Handin Out Naps3 votes

Im curious about which champs have the top 10 learning curves in your opinion. Looks like you have it all mapped out since you named singed and rumble right on the spot. Mind sharing it with me :O?

RiotMeddler9 votes

Couldn't tell you the top 10 off the top of the head, Azir's ahead of the pack statistically by a clear margin though. Rumble and Singed are generally high in the top 10 too, though they tend to be a bit more dependent on meta state (some of their difficulty's kit/unusual playstyle, some of it understanding when to play/not play, what the current meta state demands in terms of approach to winning etc).

MistroTTC3 votes

Where would Draven land by the way?

MunchCrunchLunch5 votes

i see what you did there

TheAramOne2 votes

I don't agree that Rumble and Singed are top 10.

Riven, Nidalee, Thresh, Bard, Le Blanc, Lee Sin, Yasuo, Zed, Rengar, Azir, Kalista, Gnar, Gangplank, and some more that I missed all have a higher learning curve.

If I understand correctly, a learning curve is the measurement of how much time someone needs to invest to make the most out of a given champion. If that's the case, then my previous statement holds true.

I don't really understand how anyone can say that Aurelion Sol, Rumble, or Singed (really Singed?) have a higher learning curve than any of the champions I listed above, let alone "generally high in the top 10."

GbZeKamikaze8 votes

{quoted}

I don't agree that Rumble and Singed are top 10.

Riven, Nidalee, Thresh, Bard, Le Blanc, Lee Sin, Yasuo, Zed, Rengar, Azir, Kalista, Gnar, Gangplank, and some more that I missed all have a higher learning curve.

If I understand correctly, a learning curve is the measurement of how much time someone needs to invest to make the most out of a given champion. If that's the case, then my previous statement holds true.

I don't really understand how anyone can say that Aurelion Sol, Rumble, or Singed (really Singed?) have a higher learning curve than any of the champions I listed above, let alone "generally high in the top 10."

It involves much more than mere mechanical skills (which most of the champions you listed require). Sure enough Lee Sin, Zed, Kalista require a lot more APM (let's say, mechanical skill) than Singed (press Q + run).

However you also have to look at the game as whole. Lee Sin and Kalista are pretty much meta-agnostic champions (you could pick them at any time during any meta and they'd perform well enough). That is not the case for Singed. The mere presence of Singed in a game changes the way opponents and allies have to handle the map (think of him like a AP/Tank version of Tryndamere), entirely redefining their own picks roles. Thus, contrary to Lee Sin/Kalista, the simple fact of picking Singed requires a lot more game knowledge and mastery.

There are a few champions like Singed of course. Evelynn, Shaco, Twitch, Teemo are prime examples of this (I don't fully agree with Meddler on Rumble though, I believe he brings enough to the table regardless of the situation to bypass the "meta knowledge" requirement). They're probably the closest LoL has to « counterpicks ». Now whether counterpicks as previously discussed should become the standard in LoL is another debate - the same debate that allows Riven to bring nothing interesting to the game except the feeling to play a Street Fighter character.

RottedApples15 votes

{quoted}

Turns out that the longer a champion's been out the more likely it is people will have played a lot of games on it.

http://i.imgur.com/KdTus6M.gif

MistroTTC2 votes

{quoted}

It means that he's the most recently released champion. Turns out that the longer a champion's been out the more likely it is people will have played a lot of games on it.

Skill curve wise he's got a pretty steep learning curve with a lot of things to optimize. Conceptually he's fairly simple, execution and use of those effects is much harder though. Singed and Rumble follow the same pattern (simple kit, top 10 learning curve).

Wait, Singed , really? ( And I main him so its not me being salty a singed beat me) I completely agree with you on Rumble though.

Carnicore8 votes

It's because his kit is so unconventional. You basically have to relearn the entire game when you pick him.

MrBuffington1 votes

Funny enough, I picked up Singed again for the first time in about a year (first actual game; the last time I played him was in an ARAM, and before that I had only played a handful of bot games with him).

I got an S. lol

I can see how he can be odd since his approach to the game is pretty different, but I still don't think he's top 10, just because once you switch your mindset of how you're playing, it seems pretty straightforward to do basic Singed stuff (the mega-adhesive + fling combo is probably the only mechanically difficult thing to do; everything else seems to come with a shift in mindset and solid fundamentals).

Solitair4 votes

Most people don't have that switch. If you're a Jack of all trades type or an analytical type, the learning curve is less steep because you will think of a basic outline of what you should do before you fail 20 times trying to figure that out.

Solitair10 votes

The W change is too much. There's alreaddy significant reward to people who can stick to Aurelion and throw any cc at him. You don't need to cripple him! The community already hates playing this guy. Most people think he's boring and not rewarding enough to try to learn how to play. So you hype a champion for years, finally give us your alteration of it, but don't succeed in making it feel worthwhile, then nerf it to the ground? What the hell kind of design ethic is this? He's not just got counterplay options that are easy, but they are frustrating to deal with because you literally can't do anything about them when people decide to use them. You want to make him feel even worse?

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Intrepid 07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNjgRHVN,comment-id=00090007,timestamp=2016-05-13T22:04:40.358+0000)

The W change is too much. There's alreaddy significant reward to people who can stick to Aurelion and throw any cc at him. You don't need to cripple him! The community already hates playing this guy. Most people think he's boring and not rewarding enough to try to learn how to play. So you hype a champion for years, finally give us your alteration of it, but don't succeed in making it feel worthwhile, then nerf it to the ground? What the hell kind of design ethic is this? He's not just got counterplay options that are easy, but they are frustrating to deal with because you literally can't do anything about them when people decide to use them. You want to make him feel even worse?

If you don't like him, don't play him. If you do like him, given how strong he is currently, you should still be able to perform quite well with him after he gets these deserved nerfs.

Solitair2 votes

If you think he deserves these nerfs you dont know what counterplay is.

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Intrepid 07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNjgRHVN,comment-id=0009000700000000,timestamp=2016-05-14T06:25:12.190+0000)

If you think he deserves these nerfs you dont know what counterplay is.

Counterplay like getting inside of his inner orbits, which champions like Fizz and Zed are ridiculously good at? Counterplay that brings Aurelion Sol's winrate down to 52%?

I think if you have the perfect tool to abuse a champion's counterplay, you should probably beat that champion more than half the time, not less.

Solitair1 votes

There is absolutely no reason for that other than the knuckle-dragging fotm mains reacting improperly to Aurelion Sol's kit. Aurelion can only defend against those 2 with his ult, and their assassination patterns are up and available before his ult refreshes. People just don't take the counterplay options available to them.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Intrepid 07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNjgRHVN,comment-id=000900070000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-15T06:12:18.145+0000)

There is absolutely no reason for that other than the knuckle-dragging fotm mains reacting improperly to Aurelion Sol's kit. Aurelion can only defend against those 2 with his ult, and their assassination patterns are up and available before his ult refreshes. People just don't take the counterplay options available to them.

If you're right that Aurelion only ever wins because people are terrible at playing against him then I'm sure his win rate will steadily drop in time and Riot can buff him back up to being strong. Right now leaving him at a ludicrous power level because it's POSSIBLE that he's only so strong because people don't know how to beat him is stupid. Riot patch things every 2 weeks, there's no excuse to leave problems because "It's possible it's not the champion's fault". If Aurelion really isn't OP right now then they can buff him when he turns out to be weak with extreme ease.

Solitair2 votes

nerfing a champion around stupid people isnt exactly smart either. How long is it going to take for people to learn the counterplay that's already so obvious? Does it really feel proper to punish dedicated Aurelion Sol players for the ineptitude of others for an indefinite amount of time?

therealdragon7 votes

{quoted}

In terms of the changes we're making in 6.10 we're hitting the ult damage because, as a powerful initiation and/or peel tool it doesn't need to be as high as it is on base damage. That makes it a good place to hit when we need to reduce overall power. The W change is aimed at giving a bit more reward to opponents who CC Aurelion Sol or force him to pull his stars in (increased time until he's got longer ranged sustained threat again). It's possible that will hit him harder than intended in terms of ability to deal with closing threats, that is meant to be a core weakness for him though. We'll assess post 6.10 ship, see where he ends up.

Well zed's core weakness is when his shadow is off cooldown. Doesn't mean you should increase the cooldown from 14-22s at max rank. You do realize that if Sol gets cc'd somehow or someone gets past his stars, he IS most likely going to be dead unless the team is hellbent on saving sol instead of damaging the enemy.

But if these do make him underpowered, how do you plan to give him back some power?

I also don't see it good thematically that this cosmic dragon's only use of damage is these rotating stars around him. He should be able to decimate teams like a brand does with his passive and such. Not have to run back and forth on the spot trying to hit the enemy with 10 w hits because his other spells don't do crap.

And as a final note, the only reason his winrate is so high is because the mains such as myself know how to play him and because he has the playrate of Galio, no one knows how to go against Sol. So really, you shouldn't be nerfing OR buffing him but perhaps make the double tapping on his q possible. Then people might be like "oh, he has a chance against melee opponents now? Ok I'll try him."

You really don't like mages in the lcs/msi/some other 3 letter event. Whenever someone appears its nerfs automatically T_T. What do you guys have against them? >.>

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Speaking of windwall/Braum shield interactions,

Could you explain why things like Zilean's time bomb aren't destroyed but ASol's q is?

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

Speaking of windwall/Braum shield interactions,

Could you explain why things like Zilean's time bomb aren't destroyed but ASol's q is?

Time bombs are delayed AoE skillshots that apply a time bomb to an area or a unit in an area after a fixed delay, they have no velocity or position before they hit the ground. They're closer to Karthus skittles or Cass's green poison than anything else.

Aurelion Sol's Q has a position and velocity as it's moving, making it a projectile. The closest ability to it is Anivia's Q which can also be blocked by Windwall and Unbreakable

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Aurelion Sol's Q has a position and velocity as it's moving, making it a projectile.

That can be said about anything that moves or doesn't. Really anything that exists fits that definition. Zero is a valid velocity.

I could also draw the parallell with Olaf axes, which drop as they hit windwall instead of being destroyed....

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

That can be said about anything that moves or doesn't. Really anything that exists fits that definition. Zero is a valid velocity.

I could also draw the parallell with Olaf axes, which drop as they hit windwall instead of being destroyed....

I really don't see what point you're making. Olaf axes are stopped by windwall and unbreakable, that makes perfect sense, why would that imply that ASol Q shouldn't be stopped by those abilities?

I will change my definition to "a nonzero velocity" for simplicity although my previous definition holds true for zilean time bombs because they don't actually don't have a velocity at all which is different from having zero velocity.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Olaf axe doesn't get destroyed on impact like asol's q does. There is a difference between being stopped and being destroyed.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

Olaf axe doesn't get destroyed on impact like asol's q does. There is a difference between being stopped and being destroyed.

I'm pretty sure Olaf's Axe is ALWAYS destroyed at the end of its trajectory. It then creates a stationary axe in the same position afterwards that is a different game object.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Why on earth would it be coded that way? That makes no sense.

Teklm1 votes

Probably to prevent Olaf flashing into his axe to catch it mid flight or something.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

if he does, so what? It would stop it from continuing to travel so all he would do would limit the possibility of it continuing to damage enemies.

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

Precisely.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

Why on earth would it be coded that way? That makes no sense.

because a stationary, collectible axe is completely different to the state of the game than an AoE projectile. It actually would make no sense at all to try and maintain the same object for both of those states and try to change every single attribute that needs to be changed when it swaps from the moving, damaging, slowing axe to an axe with a completely separate of visuals that is only supposed to refresh the axe cooldown when olaf walks over it.

SirPurrr1 votes

{quoted}

When balancing champions one of the primary statistics we consider is a champion's win rate when played by experienced players. Comparing average win rates can be really misleading as you point out, so comparing win rates when all the players involved have a decent level of experience on a champion tends to be more valuable for champions once they've been out for at least a little while.

Looking at champion win rates for May when those champions are played by people with more than 30 games on them Aurelion Sol's got the highest experienced win rate in the game and still has a lower average number of games played than many other champions, given he hasn't been out as long. He was strong before 6.9, and we were talking about whether he was sufficiently out of line we needed to nerf him. The 6.9 changes, Catalyst in particular, have pushed him to a point where don't feel we can afford to leave him as strong as he is, even if his play rate isn't high.

In terms of the changes we're making in 6.10 we're hitting the ult damage because, as a powerful initiation and/or peel tool it doesn't need to be as high as it is on base damage. That makes it a good place to hit when we need to reduce overall power. The W change is aimed at giving a bit more reward to opponents who CC Aurelion Sol or force him to pull his stars in (increased time until he's got longer ranged sustained threat again). It's possible that will hit him harder than intended in terms of ability to deal with closing threats, that is meant to be a core weakness for him though. We'll assess post 6.10 ship, see where he ends up.

Regarding the bug you mention with his Q and Windwall/Braum do you have a video of the Q using its edge, instead of core, for Windwall/Braum shield collisions? Just had a look at that in game and I'm seeing the core used as expected. It does look like Braum E's blocking the CC on the Q though. It was scripted that to be consistent with Anivia's Q, that doesn't seem like the right approach here though, Braum at the least should be getting CC'd.

It's too much though. Sounds like he's going to get Corkid.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

It's too much though. Sounds like he's going to get Corkid.

guaranteed relevance every year at world's when Riot inevitably reworks an item to favor him in the patch preceding it?

Dies to Wolves4 votes

I honestly can't understand why you would nerf him and not nerf someone like Zed

NXG Legion2 votes

{quoted}

When balancing champions one of the primary statistics we consider is a champion's win rate when played by experienced players. Comparing average win rates can be really misleading as you point out, so comparing win rates when all the players involved have a decent level of experience on a champion tends to be more valuable for champions once they've been out for at least a little while.

Looking at champion win rates for May when those champions are played by people with more than 30 games on them Aurelion Sol's got the highest experienced win rate in the game and still has a lower average number of games played than many other champions, given he hasn't been out as long. He was strong before 6.9, and we were talking about whether he was sufficiently out of line we needed to nerf him. The 6.9 changes, Catalyst in particular, have pushed him to a point where don't feel we can afford to leave him as strong as he is, even if his play rate isn't high.

In terms of the changes we're making in 6.10 we're hitting the ult damage because, as a powerful initiation and/or peel tool it doesn't need to be as high as it is on base damage. That makes it a good place to hit when we need to reduce overall power. The W change is aimed at giving a bit more reward to opponents who CC Aurelion Sol or force him to pull his stars in (increased time until he's got longer ranged sustained threat again). It's possible that will hit him harder than intended in terms of ability to deal with closing threats, that is meant to be a core weakness for him though. We'll assess post 6.10 ship, see where he ends up.

Regarding the bug you mention with his Q and Windwall/Braum do you have a video of the Q using its edge, instead of core, for Windwall/Braum shield collisions? Just had a look at that in game and I'm seeing the core used as expected. It does look like Braum E's blocking the CC on the Q though. It was scripted that to be consistent with Anivia's Q, that doesn't seem like the right approach here though, Braum at the least should be getting CC'd.

Well this Aurelion Sol experienced player is not pleased. Aurelion sucks against EVERY meele that can jump on top of him and you're just making things worse by adding some more clunkiness to his W by raising it's CD. Aurelion's manacosts are soooooo high that you can't afford to miss some skills or keep W active more than you have to. And you come up with this.

Burnt Light2 votes

{quoted}

When balancing champions one of the primary statistics we consider is a champion's win rate when played by experienced players. Comparing average win rates can be really misleading as you point out, so comparing win rates when all the players involved have a decent level of experience on a champion tends to be more valuable for champions once they've been out for at least a little while.

Looking at champion win rates for May when those champions are played by people with more than 30 games on them Aurelion Sol's got the highest experienced win rate in the game and still has a lower average number of games played than many other champions, given he hasn't been out as long. He was strong before 6.9, and we were talking about whether he was sufficiently out of line we needed to nerf him. The 6.9 changes, Catalyst in particular, have pushed him to a point where don't feel we can afford to leave him as strong as he is, even if his play rate isn't high.

In terms of the changes we're making in 6.10 we're hitting the ult damage because, as a powerful initiation and/or peel tool it doesn't need to be as high as it is on base damage. That makes it a good place to hit when we need to reduce overall power. The W change is aimed at giving a bit more reward to opponents who CC Aurelion Sol or force him to pull his stars in (increased time until he's got longer ranged sustained threat again). It's possible that will hit him harder than intended in terms of ability to deal with closing threats, that is meant to be a core weakness for him though. We'll assess post 6.10 ship, see where he ends up.

Regarding the bug you mention with his Q and Windwall/Braum do you have a video of the Q using its edge, instead of core, for Windwall/Braum shield collisions? Just had a look at that in game and I'm seeing the core used as expected. It does look like Braum E's blocking the CC on the Q though. It was scripted that to be consistent with Anivia's Q, that doesn't seem like the right approach here though, Braum at the least should be getting CC'd.

Aurelion Star's already ruin his stealth potential, crowd control literally makes the stars disappear, and he is a champion that is easily countered by assassins Talon Leblanc Zed Fizz Ekko and bruisers alike that will wreck him in later game. Why reward enemies who already have the natural advantage of positioning by getting up close and personal with Aurelion who can't stun them cause Q can't be double tapped and make the sustain from catalyst as the justification? You're leaving no room for Aurelion to defend himself against his counters and giving him the Irelia and Evelynn treatment where the nerf is hurting him and making his counters become unstoppable against him.

"We'll asses post 6.10 ship" Wonder how many times I have heard that before with other updates that were significantly criticized and was done anyway. Maybe if your balance team actually played the champion and not judge by the win-rate or what's on paper flat, then you would see that his W did not deserve that nerf at all.

Quepha5 votes

{quoted}

The only people who play the champion are players who MAIN the champion

This is false. http://www.lolking.net/champions/aurelionsol?chartType=performanceLoyalty&region=na&map=sr&queue=normal#statistics compare to other loyalty charts and you'll see that Aurelion Sol actually has a higher than average percentage of players on the lower end of the spectrum than 'mains' who play the champion almost exclusively.

If anything, Aurelion Sol's winrate is artificially deflated by a higher number of inexperienced players.

Arakk018 votes

{quoted}

This is false. http://www.lolking.net/champions/aurelionsol?chartType=performanceLoyalty&region=na&map=sr&queue=normal#statistics compare to other loyalty charts and you'll see that Aurelion Sol actually has a higher than average percentage of players on the lower end of the spectrum than 'mains' who play the champion almost exclusively.

If anything, Aurelion Sol's winrate is artificially deflated by a higher number of inexperienced players.

The exact same chart you linked shows it averages at a 'cap' of about 60% for very experienced players. I counter with Lux- same chart. http://www.lolking.net/champions/lux?chartType=performanceLoyalty&region=na&map=sr&queue=normal#statistics Lux caps at about 56% for very experienced players, but her '1-game' metric sits at 37% to Sol's 31%. This, if anything, proves that she has more 'basic power' in her kit but fewer opportunities for player skill to make a big difference. That is Sol's true strength in high-level play- his opportunities for player skill to turn games in his favor. Yes, his winrate is SOMEWHAT deflated by first-time Sol players- only about 8% of ALL Aurelion Sol players fall into the brackets that experience that 'second highest winrate'. The 92% with less than 10 games have between a 31% and a 53% winrate. 92% of Sol players fall in line with other champions, and the ones who don't are HARDCORE MAINS of the champion. Again, this is heavily due to his 1.1% PLAY RATE.

Champion.gg recorded just 3400 Aurelion Sol mid games this patch out of TENS OF THOUSANDS played. With so few total games, with Sol only being picked because the players enjoy his playstyle, his winrate is indicative of any champ that while not popular, can hold its own. No champion with a play rate under the average (about 5%) deserves a nerf based on their winrate. The sample size isn't large enough to reflect champion power over player skill and experience with the champ.

DrCyanide5 votes

{quoted}

No champion with a play rate under the average (about 5%) deserves a nerf based on their winrate. The sample size isn't large enough to reflect champion power over player skill and experience with the champ.

By your own words, Malzahar doesn't deserve a nerf. 3.75% play rate, under the average.

Sorry, that logic is complete garbage.

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