Why is is that the Ferocity tree, and to some extend Cunning, get generalist Keystones...

Malicious Metal·Oct 19, 2016·46 votes·2,180 views

While Resolve gets HIGHLY specific ones?

Bond of Stone and Courage of the Colossus are two masteries that are highly specific, one catering to SUPPORTS ONLY while the other's an engage Tank one.

The only thing remotely universal is Grasp but some melee champs don't really need the extra sustain and damage. Strength of the ages was universal, anyone who wanted some extra bulk could get it but with it being gone some Melee/Tanky champs don't really have any Keystone option in the resolve tree.

So, why is it that we removed SoTA and NOT Bond of Stone? Hell, tanky supports might just go for the Courage one or Grasp, maybe even TLD

Especially with Knight's Vow being introduced I see no reason for us to have a weaker version of this item's passive as a frigging Keystone

38 Comments

Big LincolnOct 19, 201619 votes

I would like to resolve tree to get redone entirely

Too many flat bonuses and situational masteries. Some scaling bonuses like other trees have would be nice; Courage is broken as shit on paper but it's a step in the right direction

MelledoneusOct 20, 20161 votes

RIP old Vitality.

SherogarthOct 19, 201614 votes

As a tanky support main i would not miss bond of stone if its removed.

This keystone is the most boring one in game. Its just there, an invisible power you are almost forced to pick because its "the support mastery". It changes nothing in your gameplay and you cant play around it.

I would gladly welcome new keystone for tanky supports.

BetterCallSoulOct 20, 20163 votes

I feel you, with Courage as a mastery and Knight's Vow out as an item I may not use Bond as much. Unless of course I can stack them and play Alistar. Alistar

WoonStruckOct 19, 201610 votes

Don't forget that resolve masteries in general are more utility than resolve, while the other trees offer up to 15% additional damage, more if its all multiplicative, which it most likely is.

The only masteries that offer actual tankiness are trumped by the other option in most cases anyway.

This is part of why damage feels so over-tuned this season. Masteries alone, without considering keystones, offer over a 15% damage difference between defense and offense. When you consider keystones, offense is over 25% higher increase than defensive bonuses, relative to other seasons.

Then you have all the defensive itemization nerfs and offensive itemization buffs to consider.

SohleksOct 20, 20162 votes

But don't forget we spent the first 2/3rds of season 6 nerfing and fixing tanks being crazy. The direction was wrong though as it was resulted from item changes (overbuffing MR items; new last whisper being less of a universal rushable thing switching to bonus armor pen) so when season 6 started with classic tank power being overtuned they knee jerked nerfed the resolve tree when the problem was itemization. It may work short term but it only covers the problem until the systems get shuffled again.

Remember season 6 we started with tanks across the board at 52-55% winrates. Sunfire Gauntlet on every champ phases. Pushing tank utility item phases (banner/zz'rot) And just in general the optimal teamcomp being tank/tank/super carry/super carry/support with Vlad being a perfect cross over (just kinda ignoring certain overpowered adc junglers which are individual cases but wow had good survival tools too and had consistent dmg)

It's not quite that way anymore though. A lot of sustain was nerfed and certain ranged powerhouses overbuffed. But there's still probably a problem with itemization having slightly too much power over the masteries.

I think Riot wants to avoid tanky masteries being too good and universal for everyone. So maybe resolve needs more multipliers rather than flat effect.

WoonStruckOct 20, 20164 votes

I think Riot wants to avoid tanky masteries being too good and universal for everyone. So maybe resolve needs more multipliers rather than flat effect.

Exactly this.

Tanks currently don't have anything scaling them the way damage does, which is a large part of the issue. Riot just need to make sure its a little less than damage so we don't end up with super-tanks/juggernauts steamrolling everyone again.

Glory ln DeathOct 20, 20161 votes

In the very first tier of Resolve you can get 5% increased armor and mr. Bam. Scaling tank stats.

Runic Armor - 8% increased self-healing and shielding. Bam. Scaling tank stats.

Bond of Stone - % damage reduction. Bam. Scaling tank stats.

Grasp of the Undying - Increased damage and sustain based on % max health. Bam. Scaling tank stats.

As you can see. There are, in fact, scaling tank stats in Resolve. Certainly not as widespread as offensive stats in the other trees, but they are there.

ZT XperimentorOct 26, 20161 votes

Too bad they do everything in a knee-jerk fashion, remember the several patches warlords & thunderlords were the only viable picks? They may as well still be since defense scaling is sluggish, and there's so many ways to circumvent defense.

RalanrOct 19, 20167 votes

TLD is the most generalist keystone and I hate it for that reason.

NineTailedMysticOct 19, 20164 votes

Not really any other choice for Burst champions though.

RalanrOct 20, 20162 votes

Beyond say stormraiders. But no, burst needs more burst.

NineTailedMysticOct 20, 20162 votes

Stormraider's doesn't help Burst champions deal their burst, it just makes escaping (or chasing if you're a Juggernaut) easier.

RalanrOct 20, 20162 votes

Yes. Because burst champions apparently need more burst.

You don't see a problem at all with that?

TequilaZombieOct 20, 20167 votes

Veigar Not at all! I'M NOT COMPENSATING!

NineTailedMysticOct 20, 20162 votes

Eh, some champs need it, some don't.

AbyssphereOct 20, 20161 votes

This is so meaningless. Tanky champions don't need more tankiness but they get it, sustain champions don't need more sustain but they get it, ADCs don't need more sustained damage but they get it and mage supports don't need more healing or shielding but they get it.

All of the keystones amp up what types of champion were already good at. Why should burst champions randomly get excluded from that? Where is the problem?

RalanrOct 20, 20161 votes

Mostly because it doesn't feel like they are balanced around getting more burst.

Honestly I'm still salty over league of thunderlords.

AbyssphereOct 20, 20161 votes

They are balanced around getting more burst. If you think they aren't you're either blinded by how noticeable the TLD visual is or you read too many "tanks die instantly when they go in 1v5 without their team and only build one defensive stat for some reason" threads.

Season 6 has been super focused on sustained damage, that's why Rylai's is so obnoxious right now. There'd be no complaints about mages permaslowing people if champions were actually just exploding left, right and centre right now.

RalanrOct 20, 20161 votes

Again, most of my salt stems from our time in league of thunderlords. Where everyone took it because it was the strongest and no champion was really weaker for taking it.

It annoys me when a generalist option is better than the niche option even in the niche situation.

I know it's better balanced now. But that doesn't mean I like it.

YumaS2AstralOct 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

TLD is the most generalist keystone and I hate it for that reason.

Yes, TLD is the generic keystone.

If your champion does not have better synergy with any other keystone, it is probably better to take Thunderlord's Decree, since it is so easy to proc (any champion can auto or hit spells 3 times) and its effects are useful for everyone (any champion can take advantage of the extra damage, especially early in the game) And unlike Deathfire Touch, it procs on autos, and has a good base damage, so even if you don't build a large amount of AD or AP, it is useful.

Also, most of the masteries in Cunning are very generic. There aren't many champions which will not get any mastery from this tree.

Other keystones are more situtional:

Warlord's Bloodlust is only useful for auto-attack reliant champions which build crit Fervor is the least situtional of the three Ferocity keystones but it is generally not useful if your champion is not auto-attack reliant Deathfire Touch is useful only on sustained damage or poke AP mages, or some AD casters like Jhin

Stormraider's Surge is very situtional. Not all champions can do the amount of damage required to proc it in a short time, and even those that do are rarely going to need the extra mobility or are better off just taking Thunderlord's Decree. Windspeaker's Blessing is only useful for sustain supports. Theorically, sustain-reliant champions like Vlad or Nasus could take this, but they are better off just taking other keystones.

Grasp of the Undying is mostly useful only for laning tanks and bruisers. In the jungle you don't want to take this since they are not going to constantly fight other champions. Most other champion classes are better off taking other keystones. Strength of the Ages is actually as generic as Thunderlord's Decree, despite being more difficult to stack outside of the jungle. But it is being removed. Bond of Stone is only useful for tanky supports, and many of them take other keystones since this one is so weak.

Pope GlitterhoofOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted} Warlord's Bloodlust is only useful for auto-attack reliant champions which build crit

You don't need critical strikes for Warlord's Bloodlust to work. They have changed how this keystone works.

YumaS2AstralOct 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Forsaken God,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NEQ7Iswm,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-20T17:16:40.152+0000)

You don't need critical strikes for Warlord's Bloodlust to work. They have changed how this keystone works.

I know that, but this keystone is still only useful for crit champions with lot of attack speed. Lifesteal doesn't work with on-hit effects, so Fervor of Battle outclasses Warlord's Bloodlust on on-hit champions. And to take the most advantage possible of lifesteal, you need to auto-attack a lot. Not only that, you also need to have a lot of attack speed and AD. And crit chance, since crit doubles the amount of health you gain from lifesteal. That's why ADCs, which are the champions who have a lot of attack speed, crit, and AD, are the best users of Warlord's Bloodlust, even though this keystone is technically not reliant on crit to work.

Other good users include Tryndamere and Yasuo.

Pope GlitterhoofOct 20, 20161 votes

Lifesteal works with all physical damage on-hit effects, except for a couple of special cases like Jarvan IV's passive. Fiora's Q and Ezreal's Q are great examples where their damage and any physical damage on-hit effects (e.g. Iceborn Gauntlet) that accompany them, save for splash damage, can translate into lifesteal.

So yes, you can bring Warlord's Bloodlust and use any physical damage on-hit abilities against any enemies for lifesteal, or you can play any champions with physical on-hit abilities and lifesteal from them. It may not be meta for most of them but it's viable. I sometimes bring Warlord's Bloodlust on Fiora because of how much sustain I can gain from this keystone.

You can check League of Legends Wiki for details or go into a custom game to verify. I can guarantee this is the case.

Edit: Ezreal can use this keystone just as well as Fervor of Battle, in different aspects, even though his meta build consists of no critical strike items.

MrWasjigOct 20, 20166 votes

I've been noticing a pattern for the longest time, Riot seems to really hate things that I can only describe as "Boring but practical", Strength of Ages being a prime example. It wasn't flashy, exciting or particularly engaging as a mastery, but it WORKED! It just did what it did, simple as that. But Riot seems to be vehemently opposed to things that simply work. Not to mention, as has already been mentioned it was far more generalist compared to Courage of the Colossus.

As many others have already mentioned, the entire Resolve tree needs a good looking at. Not enough stuff that scales. It really irked me when Veteran Scars was nerfed to a pitiful flat amount instead of being % because it just became so...bad....

Sire HippingtonOct 20, 20165 votes

Honestly, i would already be happy if Grasp simply would switch the damage and sustain portion, or loose the damage completely in exchange for more sustain. I really loved the version that had less CD but couldn't get stacked on minions that once was on PBE befor they decided to butcher the sustain part of it. If i wanted sustained damage output, i'd go fervor...What i want from the resolve tree is tankiness, and in the case of grasp sustained tankiness.

But yes, bound off stone would be a far better candidate for the exchange than SotA.

Overall, the Resolvetree is pretty lackluster outside of the summoners-cdr and tenacity and legendary guardien, which sadly exclude each other.

TalisidOct 20, 20161 votes

I don't think that's a good idea. Tank vs. Tank top lane is already incredibly passive and difficult to kill each other past 10-15 mins. Making Grasp only heal and do no damage would make this even worse.

Sire HippingtonOct 21, 20162 votes

This is a 5vs5 team-strategy game, not a 1v1 brawling game. I really don't care whethere tanky toplanes are fun to watch laneing against each other or not, and i for one had alot fun in tank vs tank matchups befor the grasp nerfs.

BastionKrossOct 21, 20161 votes

As much as I agree with you, Riot agrees with Talisid. Top lane champions had their sustain reduced specifically because watching wet noodle fights isn't going to wow either the live or the twitch crowd for the LCS.

And you know Riot, if it stops #LCSBigPlays, it's got to go.

ViciousSummonerOct 20, 20163 votes

I posted a petition for removing Bond of Stone over Strength of the Ages go upvote it so that more people can see and hopefully it will reach the eyes of Rito!

DengedenOct 19, 20162 votes

SotA is/was the most generalist of all the keystones, bruh. Cunning and Ferocity are "generalist" because everything does damage.

The Yetii RiderOct 20, 20162 votes

The reason SotA is being replaced, according to Riot, is that it was THE jungler keystone. And you would get junglers like Nidalee and Lee Sin who should be going deep into Cunning or Ferocity going 18 in Resolve just because the keystone offers the most to junglers.

In theory, every keystone should be very specific. DFT for Battlemages, Fervor for Marksman and Skirmishers, Warlords for Marksman, Stormraiders for Slayers, Thunderlord's Decree for Slayers and Controllers, Windspeakers for Enchanters, Bond of Stone for Wardens, Courage of the Colossus for Vanguards, and Grasp of the Undying for juggernauts.

The problem isn't that the keystones are too specific. The problem is that some Vanguards or Wardens have outdated kits that have no hard CC for some dumb reason.

TeCoolMageOct 20, 20162 votes

They all need to be more general.

DFT relies on DoT too much, other two ferocity need auto attacks.

Thunderlords is used on a lot of people tbh exception right there

Stormraiders is sort of okay but could do better.

Windspeakers is literally useless on all but maybe 4 champions. I like the idea, but not the way to go when 19/20 champions are literally unable to use it.

Resolve tree's keystones are all in the gray area between stormraider's and windspeakers. Still bad. At least even the squishy champions have some form of synergy with damage reduction. Heck, almost all champions except for a specific few have one form of hard CC so courage of colossus won't be horrifyingly bad.

KaiokoOct 20, 20162 votes

Because champions that are going tank that shouldn't be is unfortunately an issue. Nidalee Ekko Fizz

EvewynnOct 19, 20161 votes

Courage is an option for tanky mages, too, not just pure tanks. Ryze and Diana are a couple examples of champs that would heavily benefit from this mastery, in order to survive longer in the fight. Being able to live long anough to get an extra spell out is way more powerful than a TL proc (and ryze really doesn't need stormraiders if he has the increasingly common Ghost).

This is arguably better for a lot of bruiserish champs than any other keystone as well; darius, wukong, reksai finally have an option over the now underwhelming grasp present in the resolve tree.

The tree as a whole needs to be looked at, yes, but I think this keystone is way more applicable than on just dedicated tanks.

ZT XperimentorOct 20, 20164 votes

Most of the resolve tree has been underwhelming since preseason 6, even in the abuse cases compared to those in the offensive trees.

Pierce The VealOct 20, 20161 votes

I don't know about you but I'm considering taking courage of the collosus on anybody who has even 1 hard cc.