Riot just remember that if you ever need to nerf ZZ'rot again

Irelia Bot·Apr 20, 2016·54 votes·8,151 views

You can make each of the minions it spawns give 8 gold and people will think twice about buying it and using it.

Constant lane pressure should have a price to be paid.

54 Comments

RiotRiot SotereApr 20, 201630 votes

That's a good idea. The area that I would be pretty keen on hitting if we had to go back to address it would be its gold generation. The amount you can make off of it is surprisingly high.

JasiwelApr 20, 20162 votes

I feel like ZZ'Rot last-hits better than I do...which is why I rush it whenever I go top now. ._.

On a serious note, I've found it to be extremely gold efficient for supports because of the gold generation. I think I ended up with 1000 gold after several minutes of planting it near lanes the enemy pushed in.

Edit: I don't rush ZZ'Rot on supports; if anything, it's a 4th or 5th item.

Tychusfindlay919Apr 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I feel like ZZ'Rot last-hits better than I do...which is why I rush it whenever I go top now. ._.

On a serious note, I've found it to be extremely gold efficient for supports because of the gold generation. I think I ended up with 1000 gold after several minutes of planting it near lanes the enemy pushed in.

Rushing ZZrot is typically not all that great. ZZrot is worthless when it comes to top lane dueling. As for supports? It offers no utility outside of lane pushing which is unnecessary early game and even mid game. Not to mention, as a support, you want to create a scenario where your adc can cs flawlessly, and rot is not conducive to that.

If you rush zzrot and I rush something like black cleaver, you're just going to get pulverized. Not to mention, since the minion damage scales off your max HP, the minions also have a hard time last hitting the wave.

I fought against a zzrot rush and what I did was simply kill the little purple things in one hit (they were awfully squishy) and then pushed the wave all the way to the enemy turret since I could (black cleaver has way better dueling potential than zzrot ever could).

If the other guy ever tried to leave lane "cuz he could with the rot keeping pressure" I would just outpush the living hell out of his rot, and while the turret is sniping my minions, just snipe the rot.

Rot rush is bad. Sirhcez did it for a while on top lane, but even he realized just how bad it was and is now trying out things like cull starter and the good ol corruption potion starter.

JasiwelApr 21, 20161 votes

I mean, I don't blindly rush it unless I'm playing someone like Illaio who has very strong counterengage against someone who has weak waveclear, but I understand what you're saying. TBH, my post was poking fun at myself for being worse at last-hitting than ZZ'Rot minions.

I will disagree on the Support point though because the income it gives you in combination with Banner of Command is crazy. Of course, it's a gamble when you buy it and I don't do it every game, but I easily net 1000 gold over several minutes when I do. I also should have clarified that I don't rush ZZ'Rot on supports, though, because, as you said, it does my ADC 100% no good.

InHaruhiWeTrustApr 20, 20162 votes

you also can't get any stacks with sion W, nasus Q(edit: apparently it does(i don't play nasus)) or any other stacking abilities.

dr lichdeathApr 20, 20166 votes

huh i tought nasus q works?

Ariel the CruelApr 20, 20169 votes

Susan Q works on anything it can kill. INCLUDING crabs, tentacles, bears, turrets, wards, champions, and Teemo.

SasogwaApr 20, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N845KAiI,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2016-04-20T20:20:12.166+0000)

Susan Q works on anything it can kill. INCLUDING crabs, tentacles, bears, turrets, wards, champions, and Teemo.

And not including GP barrels, for whatever reason RITO PLS

bill84Apr 21, 20162 votes

Gp barrels are not alive and therefore cannot be killed. But hey, if at first you don't succeed, try try again. Nasus Begins aggressively destroying barrels

SociopathFriendApr 21, 20163 votes

Nasus (Channels inner Link) "HIYAAAAH!"

kile147Apr 21, 20163 votes

... Suddenly clearing wards got a lot more murder-y.

(They give stacks so therefore must be alive?)

bill84Apr 21, 20161 votes

That logic is inpenetrable.

morris1Apr 21, 20164 votes

Last time I checked turrets ~~and Teemo~~ had no soul either.

bill84Apr 21, 20163 votes

Turrets have enough intellegence to ~~sit there and do nothing~~ shoot at the right people don't they?

JariApr 21, 20161 votes

So turrets don't count because he destroys them, not kills, right?

AakeshApr 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

you also can't get any stacks with sion W, nasus Q(edit: apparently it does(i don't play nasus)) or any other stacking abilities.

Nasus Sion and Veigar get stacks off them using it vs them is bad in the long run just feeding them free gold and stats

AMYS GRAVEApr 20, 20162 votes

its why i think of it as a support item. It allows me to get gold enough to keep up with other roles.

MrWasjigApr 20, 20164 votes

Or you could address the problems that were causing Zz to be so popular in the first place?

coughMinionscough

Pandemic PunchApr 20, 20161 votes

Preach

Hemulen MagiApr 21, 20163 votes

It's not that common. Most other remotely popular tank items, item 3068 item 3065 item 3025 item 3748 , etc. are statistically much more popular. Zz'rot is quite rarely built in the grand scheme of things. It's the only successful strategic diversity item Riot released - item 3056 and item 3060 are exceedingly rare.

Sire HippingtonApr 21, 20162 votes

hm, and what do 3 out of those 4 give? Waveclear! I think Mr Wasjig isn't far of with his call. wavecontroll is very, VERY important, so what/who ever can give good wavecontroll without loosing to much on other fronts will be used at top.

The Bearded BardApr 20, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N845KAiI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-04-20T17:53:14.484+0000)

That's a good idea. The area that I would be pretty keen on hitting if we had to go back to address it would be its gold generation. The amount you can make off of it is surprisingly high.

I'd appreciate not having my skillshots blocked by something that doesn't give gold.

Tychusfindlay919Apr 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N845KAiI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-04-20T17:53:14.484+0000)

That's a good idea. The area that I would be pretty keen on hitting if we had to go back to address it would be its gold generation. The amount you can make off of it is surprisingly high.

Eh, give it back its 60/60 resistances and then make it so the amount of gold the little things take in from minion kills is X/2.

It should be about the pressure, not about being a gold generator while you get to do stuff somewhere else.

As far as the little things having a bounty... Maybe 5 gold or so, but 8 is overkill and would just allow people to get an extra 20-30-40 or whatever gold per minion wave which adds up to be a bit too much. And if you have GP milking these damn things with barrels, holy hell, he'd be at full build 25 minutes into the game.

SohleksApr 20, 20161 votes

IDK. I am pondering about this, but I feel like the item is in check right now, and that pushing the item further towards sabotaging your team's farm would be the fastest way to cement this item into trollbuild territory. Then again, I guess you could say at most it pushes ZZ'Rot down the build priority list into later game where its farm and gold gen effects matter much less.

But I also think the actual pressure this items exerts is particularly over hyped considering the portal health was rightfully toned down. There are already non ROT ways to manipulate side lanes and stack waves and I think your average player just doesn't think about the eb and flow of the side waves too much and buys into this magic solution. In my opinion the bark of this item is worse than its bite.

SohleksApr 20, 20162 votes

To reply to myself

I guess you could say at most it pushes ZZ'Rot down the build priority list into later game where its farm and gold gen effects matter much less.

it's simply not exciting to build a ZZ'Rot 30 mins into the game. So attacking its gold machanics making it sabotage your side lane farm is like the worse possible change.

ZZ'Rot doesn't really generate gold oughta thin air. It just retrieves. And it does miss some creating the push. Ohhh so it gives you time to go tax your teammates? Great. In lower elos you get more lee way in this. At peak competitiveness though Rots already passe. Or maybe it's just overshadowered by Sunfire Gauntlet Visage for now...

Jesus is SaviorApr 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N845KAiI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-04-20T17:53:14.484+0000)

That's a good idea. The area that I would be pretty keen on hitting if we had to go back to address it would be its gold generation. The amount you can make off of it is surprisingly high.

Considering some people use it IN lane that would be a terrible idea.

Losing gold for placing it under the turret you are also actively defending with your body? NO ty

Hemulen MagiApr 21, 20164 votes

Being honest here, item 3512 and to a much lesser extent item 3060 are some of the only items that feel "fun" for me as a support. I think you should be planning to add more strategic map control items for supports (and supportive tanks in top/jungle) instead of considering nerfing Zz'rot. I am sure you are already fully aware that supporting is already the least popular role in general. Zz'rot makes supporting feel impactful and strategically interesting.

It's not even a really common item. Even the champs that frequently get Zz'rot, like Shen and Nautilus, are still statistically much more likely to get other tank items like Sunfire or Spirit Visage in a game. Now, I know some people hate anything that doesn't rely on twitch reflexes, so they'd love to whine until strategy is penalized as much as possible. But, if you ignore those narrow-minded and selfish complaints, you will realize that destroying a strategically interesting item with only 2.5% overall popularity (according to lolking) would clearly be jumping the gun.

I think you can better justify nerfing almost any other item in the game. Zz'rot is clearly a somewhat rare, strategic, niche item that is fairly well balanced and that makes the least popular role (supporting) far more interesting, enjoyable, and impactful. The only possible reasons for justifications are: 1) supports should be/feel useless; 2) strategy = cheating/unfair; 3) strategy in LCS is boring/confusing for stupid viewers. None of those reasons hold any water whatsoever.

Also, the gold generation concern isn't an issue - when is the last time you heard someone say that supports have too much income? Even the non-support use cases are mostly low-kill-potential tanks who aren't going to get as much income as damage carries regardless since they can't pick up kills nearly as easily and usually don't even farm as well. The only possible abuse case I see is Udyr, and he builds it rarely.

Sahn UzalApr 21, 20161 votes

Let's say I am playing Sion, my middle inhibitor is down. I buy a ZZ'Rot portal and place it between my nexus towers. My team can safely leave the base and the enemie team can not really go and abuse the 8 gold from the portal creeps. (They might get some when activly pushing down our base, but as I said, ZZ'Rot should make that very hard for the enemie team because there will be little to no wave...)

kebslolApr 21, 20161 votes

How about Deere the item. It has unfair lane pressure and no one has time to farm it.

FACE THE WlNDApr 20, 201616 votes

Uh, no. It won't be bought. It will be pretty much a gold generator. Nobody will kill it, they will just farm the minions.

Big LincolnApr 20, 201617 votes

and while you're busy farming top we'll group and force the 4v5 somewhere else

Irelia BotApr 20, 20164 votes

a real trade off.

MelledoneusApr 20, 201646 votes

Nasus Humming to himself as he acquires stacks

redniwediSApr 20, 20167 votes

I still just want to be able to stack them again as Nasus...

ImmortalBloodCYApr 20, 20165 votes

Heimerdinger & item 3512 & item 3060 top= hell.

SpoofghoulApr 20, 20162 votes

Yep ye olde tumordongert build

ArlanKelsApr 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

&& top= hell.

I did this. It was loads of fun. item 3512 item 3060 item 3151 item 3068 item 3026 item 3116

Screw the boots. I'm there for the pushing~

HemulusApr 21, 20162 votes

Heimerdinger top = hell even without those items.

ImmortalBloodCYApr 21, 20161 votes

But but.... that's an easy hell.

We want to make sure that they will feel that hell thorough the entire game, that's why we get these items :P.

As Teemo is Satan, Heimerdinger is the Devil.

warpenguin555Apr 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

&& top= hell.

i saw this, its cancer.

LynXerfApr 21, 20163 votes

I'd also appreciate if champions would auto attack the minions from Zz'Rot. 8 gold seems a bit excessive, 5 or 6 would be more suitable in my opinion.

RabblerouserApr 20, 20162 votes

I like this idea. It gives a trade-off for what's otherwise pretty much free lane-pressure.

HollowchazzApr 21, 20162 votes

It already has a trade off....when it dies it gives 50 gold, AND if you have Bandit each minion gives 1g (if you dont kill it yourself) so you will get another 10g as well.

What people forget is zzrot has a broken movement speed utility that works near dead turrets....so basically if you are running around in lanes you gain up to 20% move speed... Get swifties, Runic ekko, deadmans, lichbane and alacrity on udyr and run around 600+ speed like LOLOLOLOL

Ariel the CruelApr 20, 20161 votes

They already give 1 gold when something else kills them. ;p

Sniper 0Apr 20, 20161 votes

This would give it a meaningful weakness without cutting into the stats

Painted CeltApr 21, 20162 votes

What other item has a "meaningful weakness"? Should Infinity Edge decrease your armor by 25? Should Needlessly Large Rod items needlessly reduce your movement speed?

I guess Sunfire makes freezing a lane difficult, but for the most part, items don't penalize you for buying and using them except by the opportunity cost of what else you could have bought instead.

Sniper 0Apr 21, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Painted Celt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N845KAiI,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-04-21T05:09:08.219+0000)

What other item has a "meaningful weakness"? Should Infinity Edge decrease your armor by 25? Should Needlessly Large Rod items needlessly reduce your movement speed?

I guess Sunfire makes freezing a lane difficult, but for the most part, items don't penalize you for buying and using them except by the opportunity cost of what else you could have bought instead.

You're making gold off of the item because it's taking minions... the voidlings are also targetable and have hp. z.z.. They're basically creeps and everything you can destroy provides gold in the game. They should not be an exception.

C9 Scott Free Apr 21, 20161 votes

You guys need to GP. Barrel explosion two minion waves plus a couple voidlings with parley crit and watch the six g pop up over it all

Athenes LuluApr 21, 20161 votes

From the buyer: choose between more pushing power or more gold for the enemy. From the enemy: choose between more gold and farm or more time to do other things and get rid of lane pressure.

That would actually be an interesting idea for both sides.

kebslolApr 21, 20161 votes

Screw needing, delete this cheap free lane pressure bull crap.