here is a crazy thought... what if supports could farm?

agbudar·Dec 31, 2016·29 votes·7,840 views

after season 6 (which i mained support for like 95% of my 400 ish games i know not a lot) and now going into toplane with splitpushers i came to a conclusion.

the priorities that will win you a game consistently is if you follow the following 4 step strat

step 1 kill the nexus. step 2 to get there kill minions/push wave to tower step 3 kill turrets and inhib step 4 kill enemy champs if they get in the way.

if everyone on your team follows this strat you are sure to win... and most champions have tools that benefit steps 1 through 4

yet supports the genuine ones like for example have very little in their kits to help them in step 1 through 3. and even with step 4 they are DEPENDENT ON THEIR TEAM.

ow btw you get the least amount of gold also.

so how about we give supports more ways to contribute in their ability to control lanes. controlling lanes is essential to winning this game yet most supports don't have the tools to control lanes they are a single minded cc bot.

the only thing we really have is but thats an item everyone can get that. our kits are the real problem as is the fact that we cant really farm/control lanes.

84 Comments

RiotRiot SotereDec 31, 201633 votes

When I first played this game, I thought last-hitting was a terrible mini-game. Really didn't enjoy it at all. After thousands of games, I've found that not only do I enjoy it, but so many of players' interactions only get to happen because of the focus on managing the creeps.

We've also created some really rich farming patterns on champions that keep them feeling lively. It's a bit of a shame that supports don't get to partake in a lot of that. I get to play the creep game by proxy: help my marksmen get the last hit, try to stop the opposition from it. But it's a pain whenever I'm alone in a lane because I'm so bad at killing creeps.

I think your'e onto something. But if we were to load more power into creep management and turret taking for supports, how many people would actually appreciate that?

LankPantsDec 31, 201613 votes

I think your'e onto something. But if we were to load more power into creep management and turret taking for supports, how many people would actually appreciate that?

Given how the average person feels about support right now how much do you stand to lose?

RiotRiot SotereDec 31, 201613 votes

We'd just lose the opportunity cost, I suppose. Think we've already signed up to look into making them more fun. If we load a bunch of power into CSing and pushing, it would likely mean we're not exploring something else.

Anywho, this thread is a bit of preaching to the choir when I'm listening. I love creep management and tower taking.

the Anarchit3chtDec 31, 20166 votes

The REAL issue I think is where would this farm the support gets come from? There's the 3 lanes for Top, MId, and ADC and the neutral mobs for Jungle. 4 sources of income for 5 players. If you created a reliable source of income that supports could manage on their own, what would prevent players who are simply better at farming(i.e. everyone else) from abusing it to push their farm even more ahead, thus still denying the support the ability to farm?

I think that's the biggest issue. You have gold income items to provide income for supports, but they naturally have to be relatively bad so that other roles don't see a reason to pick them up. Whatever is devised for supports to "farm" is naturally going to suffer from the same implications as gold income items.

Champion SkinDec 31, 20162 votes

You could just make it like item 3302 if an allied champion is in range that champion gains the gold of all minions killed and you could add that to all the support items (and relic shield could just have when having stacks you also gain the gold from minions killed)

this would allow supports to more easily push and "farm" without hurting their ADC... but well a lot of them would still be bad at pushing and farming (especially melee tank supports)

Aloexx RatfootDec 31, 20161 votes

While you have a very good point i think this can be solved by making the sight stone the supports equivalent of the jng items, except in reverse. So as long as the player has a sight stone they get the ability to play the support mini-game (whatever that might be).

the Anarchit3chtDec 31, 20161 votes

The thing is, though, that jungle items are tied to having smite. Which is more or less a requirement of the jungle. If its simply tied to sight stone, someone else can still pick up an early sight stone to net the extra farm and sell it later when they've gotten their fill of gold from it. Sure, someone who is in lane can grab smite, but without actively killing jungle monsters, the extra gold is relatively useless. It's a complex issue for sure, but I do hope a reasonable solution is created.

The other issue with this is: When supports get reasonable gold, what's going to prevent them from just rolling into another carry? Most of them do it now anyways, but it's delayed due to their lack of gold. Support items simply aren't attractive enough to pick up for most players.

GoatfishJan 1, 20171 votes

[deleted]

the Anarchit3chtJan 1, 20171 votes

The issue is.... how do you tie it to the role? It's not as easy as just locking it into someone who queued for support. Then you get the issue of team comps wherein I let my mid laner queue for support and just trade roles with him and he snowballs early due to the extra income. It's a bit more difficult.

SkiasDec 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N2eVbnb5,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-12-31T04:11:47.204+0000)

We'd just lose the opportunity cost, I suppose. Think we've already signed up to look into making them more fun. If we load a bunch of power into CSing and pushing, it would likely mean we're not exploring something else.

Anywho, this thread is a bit of preaching to the choir when I'm listening. I love creep management and tower taking.

It would definitely be nice to have some options outside of Sightstone Redemption.

5000000000000000Dec 31, 20161 votes

What about a support item that helps you waveclear (some sort of bonus damage to minions?), but instead of getting gold yourself, drops a gem that your allies can pick up? To avoid abuse, you'd get less gold from killing minions (on par with the coin line, maybe more), and the gem will disappear after a while.

OglafJan 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Given how the average person feels about support right now how much do you stand to lose?

Well, it is true, innit? You can't carry with Braum no matter how hard you try. He doesn't clear waves, nor does he takes towers. He can at most ZZ Rot (one of my favourite Support items for this very reason).

There is a reason why midlaners such as Brand and Malzahar are so popular "Support" picks, because in return of playing Support early game they can later just go full midlaner-mode and carry like usual.

AMYS GRAVEDec 31, 20163 votes

I mean, one of the prevailing problems with support is that people don't feel like they can carry from the position because they are so bad at these things.

rtbf221651412Dec 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N2eVbnb5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-12-31T03:33:09.326+0000)

When I first played this game, I thought last-hitting was a terrible mini-game. Really didn't enjoy it at all. After thousands of games, I've found that not only do I enjoy it, but so many of players' interactions only get to happen because of the focus on managing the creeps.

We've also created some really rich farming patterns on champions that keep them feeling lively. It's a bit of a shame that supports don't get to partake in a lot of that. I get to play the creep game by proxy: help my marksmen get the last hit, try to stop the opposition from it. But it's a pain whenever I'm alone in a lane because I'm so bad at killing creeps.

I think your'e onto something. But if we were to load more power into creep management and turret taking for supports, how many people would actually appreciate that?

Idk. However, I can't carry as a support as easily because I can't push lane while everyone else ignores the elephant in the room... Our Nexus. I would definitely want it. I'm tired of just watching the loss go as I spam my skills until I have no mana.

Deep Terror NamiDec 31, 20162 votes

I like trading around the enemy trying to last hit. Hitting an enemy champion is a lot more rewarding to me than hitting a minion. The only time I care about farm is when my team is AWOL and there are super minions pushing my base.

Linna ExcelDec 31, 20162 votes

What if someone were to think that last-hitting is still a terrible minigame after too many hours in LOL?

PS. I miss old Soraka's ability to shove waves in.

HollowMimicDec 31, 20163 votes

The thing is though that there are no challenging mini-games for supports at all. No objectives for them to contest in the map, no self-viability, no wave clear potential (Redemption is not enough), nothing.

Helping your team with shields and heals and map awareness is great, yet quite passive.

I assume people would prefer if the support role was more proactive, instead of reactive (e.g. clearing a huge wave since 3 teammates are dead and the other one is managing to hold another lane against 2 people).

One interesting "mini-game" of the support role that I do enjoy, is the fact that you can pick a champ that comboes with your ADC counterpart. Unfortunately (or fortunately), people pick the champs they are most comfortable with and sometimes neglect this.

Hinagiku33Jan 1, 20172 votes

Also if my teammates die and waves are closing in on our base, Support is the absolute worst role to be in since they have no way of defending the base.

Support feels terrible because the entire role lacks power in the things that actually matter - controlling lanes, clearing waves to push, dealing damage to objectives. Even as CC bots, that only matters when picking off a lone splitpusher or in a big team fight and it's not like the Support can actually follow up on their own CC to do something useful.

When self-reliant generalists are Meta (and they are almost always Meta in Solo Queue) then Supports just lose a lot of value on top of being not that fun to play. Giving them something more interesting to do in lane besides watching carries last-hit safely from range and occasionally casting a spell of two to poke or engage/disengage a trade if one carry is feeling ballsy.

Titanium70Dec 31, 20162 votes

I dont Support often - but I remeber some pretty funny lanes supporting a Kalista - her ability to mark CS for the supp to lasthit was really funny and helpfull sometimes. ^^ A feature similar to this could really improove the fealing of bot lane - as a mastery? maybe?

SlytherinUmbreonDec 31, 20161 votes

But at the same time, it feels soooo good when you actually manage to cs well with one of them http://pm1.narvii.com/5773/8b51fbbfddc90c1c462b3c0a75d15db6c6d7174e_hq.jpg

StephenizgodJan 1, 20171 votes

maybe an Item or even a new champion with a mechanic that allows them to farm then pass gold onto others?

Gnart Even CloseJan 1, 20171 votes

I don't think that would be the best path to take, since it would mean it would eat into the gold income of other team members. I think a better path would be looking to give them more power out of champion combat, namely taking objectives. Supports really can't do anything like take jungle monsters or kill towers. The only thing they can do is buff their allies. This takes away agency from the support player, which is part of why it is so unsatisfying to play. Another important step would be to push the vision game further into a teamwide task rather than focusing so heavily on the support role. Removing the requirement to purchase Sighstone as well could help, considering it eats up 800 gold of an already limited budget.

That being said, giving supports some ability to clear waves isn't a bad idea. It's kind of sad watching supports try to fight off waves by themselves and be unable to turn them back. Similar wave clear ability to many tank top laners would be plenty sufficient. Not enough that they start eating up waves, but just enough that they feel like a champion and not a heal / CC bot.

It's kind of a shame that supports don't take part in the last-hitting mini-game, since it adds a ton of depth to the laning phase. They get other jobs though, and I think that having a lane role without last-hitting is important. Each role should feel meaningfully different. Top lane is a more passive and typically tanky 1v1 lane, mid is a high damage squishy 1v1 lane, ADC is a low experience but high gold income high-damage ranged 2v2 lane, support is a low-resource utility heavy 2v2 lane, and jungle is a PVE and map pressure focused role. Each role is very distinct (top and mid are the most similar, but play very differently and typically have very different roles), catering to different types of players. Those who love tanks play top, jungle, and support; and among those, there are different options based on if you prefer a 1v1, PVE and roaming, or a completely supportive role.

Kitty PixJan 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N2eVbnb5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-12-31T03:33:09.326+0000)

When I first played this game, I thought last-hitting was a terrible mini-game. Really didn't enjoy it at all. After thousands of games, I've found that not only do I enjoy it, but so many of players' interactions only get to happen because of the focus on managing the creeps.

We've also created some really rich farming patterns on champions that keep them feeling lively. It's a bit of a shame that supports don't get to partake in a lot of that. I get to play the creep game by proxy: help my marksmen get the last hit, try to stop the opposition from it. But it's a pain whenever I'm alone in a lane because I'm so bad at killing creeps.

I think your'e onto something. But if we were to load more power into creep management and turret taking for supports, how many people would actually appreciate that?

I feel like It may make the role more attractive to not only support mains but people that don't normally play support. The reason people don't like the role as much is because it's 10x's harder to carry as a support than it is any other lane, so it'd be nice if it felt like maybe we had more a One-Man impact on the game than what we have now; which in most cases is sitting back hoping you feed your laner or pray laning phase ends quickly so you can go support the best off person on your team. And if they're all doing bad? Well.. just wtf lol

Idk if the solution to this is letting supports farm more, but I do think there should at least be more gold generation in some manner for supports. I honestly feel all of the starting options are sub-par in regards to gold, one way or another, unless it's item 3301 but who wants to give up the shared minions on item 3097 (with it's later active) or the aggro gold from item 3303 with it's possible actives as well.

I feel like this is comparable to raising the minimum wage of supports LOL

Cynical RainJan 1, 20171 votes

My $0.02 to add to your database: I'm one of the players who would not appreciate that.

I felt the same way about last-hitting when I first started the game, and still feel that way, but agree that it's become a cornerstone which player interaction arises from.

As a support, I hate setting minions up for my partners - especially under turret. It might seem novel at first, but later on it just feels like a chore. I get more fun out of taking advantage of the creep mini-game rather than playing it. For example, when the enemy ADC wants to last hit, it's more likely that I'll hit a Thresh hook or Nami bubble, or even an auto attack without retaliation or making them lose the minion gold. Supports don't need to CS, just balance them around that.

DynikusDec 31, 20165 votes

so how about we give supports more ways to contribute in their ability to control lanes.

If you can't do this as a support, you're doing it wrong. Good support champions can help the team tremendously without being reliant on gold. The reason you give all the farm to your adc is because they're very reliant on items to be able to do anything.

khorneyDec 31, 20162 votes

the issue with gold income is that face of the mountain has the lowest out of the 3 gold income items that are for supp.... thios needs to be imporoved upon in my opinion. my 2nd thing is that when i tank or people will generally get talismen then ruby or just the combo ap ss item. but so people dont complain ill get relic shield but run 3 gold income quints.

agbudarDec 31, 20163 votes

the problem is when it takes a support half a minute to clear 1 wave and im not talking mage supports here there is a reason those champs are popular for their picks not just their killing potential (although that plays into it)

ElysMustacheJan 1, 20171 votes

I mean are you exaggerating here or does it really take that long? If it is taking that long, I feel you are doing something wrong.

I play Bard, so I'm most familiar with him, and his waveclear is usable early game and really good late game.

Let's say for some reason I'm by myself level 1 and need to clear a wave. I'm going to Q the caster minions first, hitting two of them, and then finish them off with autoattacks, one of which will be empowered. Then I carefully time my autoattacks to minimize the time the remaining creeps live. Hitting the casters first does a couple things for me. They have less HP, so they take less time. But they also do more damage, so by finishing them first, I minimize the amount of damage my own creep wave takes, which means it survives longer to help me push.

If I'm trying to set up a mega wave, so that the lane will auto-push, I will kill only the caster minions, and then walk away. This stalls my wave while allowing some members of it to survive so it will overpower the next enemy minion wave when the next friendly minion wave catches up. Resulting in a slow-push, and allowing me to leave the lane and go help my team. Eventually that wave will represent a threat to the enemy tower and a large loss of gold if the enemy ignores it. If they go to deal with it, they are down a team member and we have a better fight somewhere else on the map.

agbudarJan 1, 20171 votes

bard is an enchanter type support.

im talking supports like Braum Leona Nautilus Alistar all of these when they use their Q>W>E abilities will still take a very long time to actually push a wave.

Blitzcrank if you dont use ult will also take roughly half a minute.

most champions with a bit of damage do it under 5 seconds or less

ElysMustacheJan 1, 20171 votes

Braum I will agree with.

Leona E + W will clear a wave pretty quickly. Alistar Q + E deals decent AoE damage against creeps. Nautilus I would have to look up his damage, but I know he has AoE damage as well.

Blitz you can just use your ult. The cooldown is low enough.

GrReaper96Dec 31, 20163 votes

item 3060 : Notice me Shen pai

MelledoneusDec 31, 20163 votes

Shen Ignoring intensifies

Mecha MaIphiteDec 31, 20162 votes

If you mean waveclear, I think the reason a lot of supports don't have that is just because they'd be played in solo lanes and make them really stagnant. AP Janna used to clear an entire wave with just one charged up tornado.

agbudarDec 31, 20161 votes

ive never seen a braum clear wave with just his q or shield....

Fondling GemsDec 31, 20163 votes

The point he was making was that if supports have the damage to waveclear and farm then they are just high utility top laners that run rampant and take over the game. It is an issue where Top lane tanks and supports are very similar. The thing separating them is Top lane tanks tend to get more waveclear/damage than supports, So when supports that can already fulfill their own role get the damage to clear waves they become pretty monstrous top lane.

Ok sure but whyDec 31, 20162 votes

http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/why-you-took-all-the-kills-because-i-need-items-to-support-you-adc-support-johnny-depp-meme.jpg

Möral SupportDec 31, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=JZ Jora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N2eVbnb5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-12-31T03:30:41.901+0000)

http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/why-you-took-all-the-kills-because-i-need-items-to-support-you-adc-support-johnny-depp-meme.jpg

(Lux)

Fondling GemsDec 31, 20161 votes

Naw, see the Lich? That is clearly a Sona.

reaperteaserDec 31, 20161 votes

nah, thats totaly ziggs sup

TeCoolMageDec 31, 20161 votes

It's a ziggs bot lane carry using the ingenious method of falsely assuring the marksman that they're the ADC and not the support.

reaperteaserDec 31, 20161 votes

thats what they get for picking MF

TeCoolMageJan 1, 20171 votes

:^) "MF ADC with spellthief's counters Zyra for sure" -Ziggs 'support'

ZerenzaDec 31, 20162 votes

What if supports didn't have a 2100 gold item that heals everyone for 500 HP.

If supports had incentive to farm and were good at it they would be even more overpower than they are right now with the new items. One reason many support items are so cheap is because they can't farm very well, that's important because if they could farm well and got more gold overall than they do now, many support items would have to have their gold value increased substantially to even it out.

If that happened though many support player's would start to complain that the items are to expensive which would leave us at where we were on many different occasions when this was true.

I do however agree that supports should be able to push and shove waves better but that they need to find a way to do it that doesn't involve how much gold the support gets.

General Esdeath Dec 31, 20161 votes

item 3302

:^)

agbudarDec 31, 20161 votes

the problem is that you still need a team mate for that

General Esdeath Dec 31, 20162 votes

But you're support, meaning you should be with an adc.

Champion SkinDec 31, 20162 votes

No the support shouldn't be with the ADC all the time... that would be a waste of time as the ADC can manage by themselves at times and the support can do other more useful things

General Esdeath Dec 31, 20161 votes

Should be with an adc early* then stick with whoever.

ziffreJan 2, 20171 votes

To be honest the ability to control waves is the biggest reason I play AP supports. Zyra

SaVaGeStaNoJan 2, 20171 votes

@riot i think i have it solved can you read this pls

What if you just add a negative CS count for supports, that show how many minions/monsters you DIDN'T take as a CS last hit. Put that as their number for CS so it emphasizes not taking gold from carries/jungle.. This along with rewarding it at a certain milestone, would be a pretty cool effect i think for a support role. Id get behind something like that... I MISSED 300 CS THIS GAME ~ they could be a minor minor power spike in terms of a gold reward or EXP.

~100 CS missed == EXP + 50 gold ~200 CS missed == EXP + 100 gold ~300 CS missed == EXP + 500 gold.

Something like this would be cool, not only for the fact your adding power for supports that are playing correctly, but it also would allow them to be more relevant late game where as they can get items, and caught up on EXP for keeping with not taking a ton of CS later too.