Hot Take: A rework isn't bad because it's hard to balance for pro games

chipndip1··3 votes·2,376 views

This game has been very largely centered around solo queue for a long time until recently. Back in seasons 5 and prior, you'd be hard pressed to find many fighter class champions in pro games. Pros largely stacked tanks on top of each other because fighters were glorified split pushers that didn't even scale like real split pushers (Jax, Trynd, etc.).

Fast forward to now and we have Riot actively trying to make champion types that were previously never good in a competitive setting...actually good in a competitive setting. Juggernauts like Urgot and Aatrox, assassins like Qiyana and Akali, and divers like Camille and Irelia. All these class types were previously rarely seen in pro games, regardless of how much they're seen in solo queue, but Riot's been making effort to fix some of their old solo queue-centric designing issues. Things like "Assassins being designed to irritate the fuck out of people early and then become kamikaze dive bombers in the late game" and "Juggernauts being absolutely useless save for the juggy patch" have been steadily addressed one release at a time, and herein lies our issue.

League isn't a game that's addressed all at once. It's not like a fighting game where you release a new game and EVERYONE is brand new at the same time, and EVERYONE ages at the same time, and EVERYONE gets reworked and released again in the next game at the same time. As Riot releases new champs, old champs fall by the wayside and ALSO need to be addressed. Designs of old like Malphite and Maokai aren't going to cut it as top lane tanks in the long run, but Riot's prioritizing other things rn because they're "good enough" for solo queue that they can do other work instead. Eventually, we'll reach a point where more of the roster can keep up with these newer kits in the pro space, which will then make these kits require less pro-specific tuning. These kits that get buffed and nerfed, like Akali and Aatrox, largely get nerfed for pro dominance, not solo queue, but that's because a shit ton of kits in the lanes they occupy don't have what it takes to keep up with a "functional diver/assassin/juggernaut" kit.

Short version: New fighter/assassin designs are hard to balance for organized games because Riot's trying to do better when it comes to fighter/assassin designs which we used to collectively accept as "damn near nonexistent in organized games". This is causing new balancing issues as Riot's trying to figure out a means to have these new designs be good in this space without being overtuned or undertuned in our standard solo queue games. These issues are necessary growing pains in order to push League's champ design philosophies into a better space for the future of more sub-classes instead of stagnating where it's comfortable because you don't want to upset people, otherwise organized games would have continued to be ran over by multi-tank setups like it was prior to this.

8 Comments

Dorans Pants3 votes

a bold move to call Akali Qiyana Irelia Camille the evolution of good champion design.

So instead of dealing with overloaded kits we just have to wait till every champ is an overloaded mess? Damn CT was right all along.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dorans Pants,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MyWGPkFh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-20T17:49:37.089+0000)

a bold move to call Akali Qiyana Irelia Camille the evolution of good champion design.

So instead of dealing with overloaded kits we just have to wait till every champ is an overloaded mess? Damn CT was right all along.

Of those champions, only one of them is a CT champion. Why are you blaming CT?

And yes, they are the evolution of good game design. Why? Because they attempt to fix long standing issues with the diver and assassin sub-classes. The issue is that we, the community and Riot as a company together, have zero experience with a League of Legends in which assassins aren't shitty kamikaze bombers and divers aren't shitty split pushers after the 20 to 25 min mark. These designs, and some others, are attempts at creating kits that actually have a late game play style in mind instead of keeling over and dying because you didn't end the game fast enough like LeBlanc or old Pantheon do.

The constant need for adjusting are necessary growing pains so we can lay out a new understanding on how assassins, divers, juggies, and so on can be good in the game without relying on dated, frustrating play patterns like "Rengar Come out of nowhere and Khazix delete you in .3 seconds Leblanc while clipping the murder Talon for the next YT montage. Shaco"

preternatural1 votes

the reworks and new champs are great for gameplay. one just has to wonder how long till dated champions get their power budgets adjusted is all, but one can bet on it happening eventually.

Atom Knight1 votes

I disagree. It really shows if you play older champs. Weaknesses were built into their kits because they had strength somewhere else. Malphite for example had high base damage so he had long cooldowns and high mana usage early game. Mundo is a tanky boy with a spammable slow but loses health when he spams his abilities early on. Now every new and reworked champ has high base dmg, lane sustain, mobility, cc, and a cool looking ult with the only counterplay being counterpicks. Champs arent allowed to be early, mid or late game champs anymore or they just get bodied in the meta. Its lazy game design not good game design to give every champ everything instead of nerfing champs that already have that

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I disagree. It really shows if you play older champs. Weaknesses were built into their kits because they had strength somewhere else. Malphite for example had high base damage so he had long cooldowns and high mana usage early game. Mundo is a tanky boy with a spammable slow but loses health when he spams his abilities early on.

He gets a refund on the Cleavers if he hits targets, anyway. The damage back to himself is largely negligible. If he has any REAL weakness, it's lacking hard cc. Also, some of these things are simply due to game limitations from back in the day.

Now every new and reworked champ has high base dmg, lane sustain, mobility, cc, and a cool looking ult with the only counterplay being counterpicks.

Well, yes and no.

  1. Not all champs have high base damage. You're just saying that.

  2. Lane sustain is important and has been for ages. Whether we're playing Maokai, enchanters, stacking Relic Shields, lane sustain for hp/mp has always been important to the game.

  3. We've had a good deal of mobility on tons of champs even before newer designs were being blamed for mobility creep. Lee Sin and Elise aren't brand new champions, nor is Shaco, or LeBlanc, or Rengar, or K6, or old Irelia who had a dash, or Vi, or Jax, and we could HONESTLY keep going with this, but the point is that dashing isn't some new thing for Riot to abuse. It's always been present. If anything, Riot's been adding more ways to COUNTER mobile champions with champs like Poppy and Camille.

  4. I would hate to have a shit looking ult. >_>

Champs arent allowed to be early, mid or late game champs anymore

They are. Look at Kayle. So much so she has to be tuned to be less so due to (deserved) public outcry.

Its lazy game design not good game design to give every champ everything instead of nerfing champs that already have that

They don't give every champ everything. SOME get everything or damn near it, like Sylas, but that's not for every champ, no.

Titanium701 votes

No I don't think that's the point, you're scratching it, tho.

Riot tried to design Champions for compeditive that by their whole nature are not usefull for proplay. No Proplayer need a feast or famine glass cannon, or a jack of all trade Bruiser.

They need their champs to do ONE THING, and do it great, Tank, Engage, DPS, Controll, Poke.

By desperately trying to break this they created absolute nightmares, flawed design from the drawboard on. Camile - how was her E/R EVER supposed to be healthy? Aatrox/Urgot - Defensive tools that makes Tanks pale in shame, DMG/Utility beyond any sanity. Yep that how you make bruisers viable I guess. Irelia, Akali, Zoe just the start of the list of designs that should ever ever been thought off, yet somehow got the greenlight!


So no, creating Assassins/Fighters for proplay is not hard, it's fundamentaly broken and cannot work in a healthy way. The only reason for pros to ever touch them is when they have absolutely no counterplay what so ever.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

No I don't think that's the point, you're scratching it, tho.

Riot tried to design Champions for compeditive that by their whole nature are not usefull for proplay. No Proplayer need a feast or famine glass cannon, or a jack of all trade Bruiser.

They need their champs to do ONE THING, and do it great, Tank, Engage, DPS, Controll, Poke.

By desperately trying to break this they created absolute nightmares, flawed design from the drawboard on.

I think YOU'RE the one missing the point...horribly. You say all this about champs being healthy or not, but you're not looking at the game beyond your own frustrations to even have that conversation.

How's Camille supposed to be healthy? As a strong answer to people picking slippery back liners like Ezreal and Tristana, that's how.

How's Irelia supposed to be healthy? As the only diver champion with strong late game scaling as opposed to being a cc bot like Elise or Lee Sin in the late game.

You COULD go through this WHOLE list of champions you listed, but the problem is that you didn't put much time in thinking about these champions and their places in the game outside of your own personal frustrations, so that's a shit ton of work for me to type, which you could easily respond with "no u" or something similar. You should look at the roster holistically and think less about nerfing everything down to the level of a Wu Kong or so and more about making more champions that are actually useful for something.

Side note: You're only proving my point when you say that fighters and assassins have no place in a healthy League meta.

Titanium701 votes

My own frustration?

If you call it frustration to see one the same pick being spamed over and over and over again when even SLIGHTLY viable... Boredom... that's it. Camile JGL - Irelia.. everywhere - Aatrox/Urgot Bot,JGL,Mid,Top who the F cares pick=win!

Camile: Yeah she's an answer to "slippery back lines" true, to bad she's also the answer to every single backline ever existed.

Irelia: Every upside of fighter, no downside. Strong Early/Mid and even lategame. Good for Teamfight and Skirmishes and Duels!

This champions are not used because they're oh so unique or fun. They're broken tools to win games. Nothing more. Keep in mind we're talking baout proplay but...

Side note: You're only proving my point when you say that fighters and assassins have no place in a healthy League meta.

Well... you didn't.

I cleary stated that Assassins and Fighters are by their very nature not fit.. FOR PROPLAY! Hence why evey attemp to create one is doomed to end in absolute desaster by default.

This Champions are classic SoloQ Champions that work well in less coordinated enviroments. And that's prefectly fine. But as soon as you try to balance them to work in an extremely coordinated enviroment... 3 times you can guess what happens in SoloQ...

It needed like what... 70% Banrate on Zed to make him appear a once or twice in ProPlay? Or was it 80%?


And if you want proove of this, just look at the amzing state this great new and fun reworks/release end up in EVERY SINGLE TIME. Welcome to the 40% winrate club...

New flashy Champ get released, gets picked again and again and again, while starting to terrorize soloQ. People get bored. Gets gutted and and forgotten until the next mini-rework.


So frustration? Dont make me laugh - I'm far beyond taking this game seriously. It's just funny to see people actually defending this hilarious stuff and don't see how bad some design choices that Riot makes actually are.

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