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IF YOU WERE BETTER YOU WOULD BE IN A HIGHER DIV! Did you know this is stupid?

Occams Raiser··6 votes·1,245 views

I never thought about why this was a logically incoherent. Anyone that says this must be under the belief that you gain division levels then strive to live up to them. Cause they are saying when you are deserving of a higher level there is nothing that can hold you back from getting to that level. But that can't be true because you are at the level you deserve. Ah yes.... wait, what?

If you are Silver 5 do you get to Silver 4 then start playing like a Silver 4 after your promo series? If you get trolled or paired poorly on 3 games does that mean you were not worthy after all? If you are so good that you can carry against 1 or more trolls are you still only as good as a Silver 4 or are you now S3?

Hear me out, this might sound weird, but maybe there are players that play above their peers and when suitable factors align themselves, a player might shine in enough consecutive games to move up?

Naw It's probably the other way. You get it when you deserve it, but you are only deserving of it once you get it.

"IF YOU WERE BETTER, YOU WOULD BE IN A HIGHER DIV!" If you can, slap the shit outta the next person that says this.... for me.

29 Comments

BluePolarizer3 votes

Its not linear.

There's a huge diference between certain divisions, not others. I personally noticed a huge jump in skill in gold 3, which separated those who were closer to plat from those who were closer to silver. I also noticed a huge jump in silver 2.

LissomMars1 votes

{quoted}

Its not linear.

There's a huge diference between certain divisions, not others. I personally noticed a huge jump in skill in gold 3, which separated those who were closer to plat from those who were closer to silver. I also noticed a huge jump in silver 2.

That's really true lol. But for some reason I sometimes have silver, gold, and plat players in game. I only thought two divisions were allowed in game. lol

Occams Raiser1 votes

Its mmr. LP and DIV are cosmetic. If the plat is on a losing streak his MMR continues to drop even though his LP has bottomed out before a demotion.

Occams Raiser2 votes

The fact that it isn't linear proves my point. If you go from G2 to G3 where you believe the spike is, how long has a GOLD 2 Been playing like a GOLD 3 before their promos. If they fail their first promos that doesn't mean people are now playing against a GOLD 2 again. This joker is a G3 that was a victim of 3 bad games. He is now whipping up on some G2, and G1. In reality his MMR is keeping with his skill group I know but this thread was more about the idiocy of the statement "IF YOU WERE BETTER YOU WOULD BE IN A HIGHER DIVISION." This is something that people spit on a regular basis.

LissomMars1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MtxAjQJu,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-05-25T23:32:59.185+0000)

The fact that it isn't linear proves my point. If you go from G2 to G3 where you believe the spike is, how long has a GOLD 2 Been playing like a GOLD 3 before their promos. If they fail their first promos that doesn't mean people are now playing against a GOLD 2 again. This joker is a G3 that was a victim of 3 bad games. He is now whipping up on some G2, and G1. In reality his MMR is keeping with his skill group I know but this thread was more about the idiocy of the statement "IF YOU WERE BETTER YOU WOULD BE IN A HIGHER DIVISION." This is something that people spit on a regular basis.

I'm pretty sure if pros weren't better they wouldn't be pros would they? I believe if you're better you'll be in a higher division. You Just need more practice.

Brotha1 votes

{quoted}

Its not linear.

There's a huge diference between certain divisions, not others. I personally noticed a huge jump in skill in gold 3, which separated those who were closer to plat from those who were closer to silver. I also noticed a huge jump in silver 2.

This guy gets it. I went through hell to climb to Gold last season, managed to get to Gold III then dropped right back down to Gold IV where I left it. Started a new account and could not bring it to gold. This season I got this account placed in Gold V, but my other account has only gotten as high as Silver I and is currently sitting at Silver III. I think Low Division III- High Division IV are basically the same skill level regardless of where you lie.

LissomMars1 votes

I remember feeling like this. I was stuck in bronze season 3. Not because of my team, just because I was bad at the game lol. I'm gold now, not because of my team, but because of me. Don't get me wrong, I can't carry 5 people, but. I can try my best to win a game. Last week I was Silver 1. now I'm Gold 2. Yes. I am Gold 2 because of me. I'm a jungle main and 4/5 games I go mid. Why? I'm not going to rely on someone I don't know to carry the game. So I go mid and win. Go a carry role. Be kind but be prepared. You might actually have to carry. If you lose 10 games in a row and really think hard about it. You're going to see why you lost. It's because you weren't good enough. Remember to put everyone else on your back and carry. Problem Solved.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I'm actually cool with my level. This thread was more of a logical fallacy type of conversation. Your story illustrates my point. You went from S1 to G2 in a week. I find it hard to imagine that you amassed all that skill in merely a week. How many games did it take you. perhaps you played an ungodly amount of games in that time frame?

LissomMars1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MtxAjQJu,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-05-25T23:24:33.052+0000)

I'm actually cool with my level. This thread was more of a logical fallacy type of conversation. Your story illustrates my point. You went from S1 to G2 in a week. I find it hard to imagine that you amassed all that skill in merely a week. How many games did it take you. perhaps you played an ungodly amount of games in that time frame?

I actually only played rank. So about 80 games lol. It would of been less but I'm not the best player. I mean we're talking 10+ hours a day. I went from B5 To S5 in 3 days skipping B4 in 3 days. You just have to be better.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I don't want to be that good that bad.

Ranghar1 votes

Truth is LP and Division means nothing. You can be diamond and get all silver people in your solo queue (if your mmr is that much lower than your rank, which would be incredibly unlikely.)

It is ALL based on MMR. The divisions and the ranks are just smoke and mirrors that mean nothing. League put them in because seeing your actual ELO number caused people to get butthurt. So now we just have to "guesstimate" our MMR.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Yeah I know. But this thread was about the oversight of the logical fallacy or contradiction of the statement that is tossed so so flippantly. The fact that we all know it is really MMR that is important makes the statement even dumber.

Juggernaut6281 votes

I've already lost series to silver three times, once due to afks in 2/4 games, second time was my fault, and third because I had trolls in 2/4 games. I would've been silver before I ever made the mistake that I corrected from my second series. Oh how much I want to get out of this hell-hole that is bronze 1.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Sorry dude. I started out bronze 1. Got troll blasted so hard my first 10 games of ranked so bad I thought I had better go back to normals where I don't give a shit.

Juggernaut6281 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MtxAjQJu,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-25T23:36:51.172+0000)

Sorry dude. I started out bronze 1. Got troll blasted so hard my first 10 games of ranked so bad I thought I had better go back to normals where I don't give a shit.

I'm trying to learn how to play Tryndamere (LOL HE IS SO FUCKING EZ) because freelo wins Bronze games, and Tryndamere is as close to freelo as you can get without being a little shitty champion that 100-0s you with one skill cough Katarina cough Quinn cough Akali cough

Yeah I really don't like Quinn. Hate her, Vayne and Varus. And Lux. Have hated them since I started the game.

LissomMars1 votes

{quoted}

I've already lost series to silver three times, once due to afks in 2/4 games, second time was my fault, and third because I had trolls in 2/4 games. I would've been silver before I ever made the mistake that I corrected from my second series. Oh how much I want to get out of this hell-hole that is bronze 1.

Yeah. You have more AFK's in higher elo. But way less trolls. I'm sorry to hear that. Riot should make a note on that to fix it.

Occams Raiser1 votes

Why would you have more afks

Angry Monster1 votes

It is not a logical fallacy.

First "IF YOU WERE BETTER YOU WOULD BE IN A HIGHER DIV" was originally "IF YOU WERE BETTER YOU WOULD BE IN A HIGHER ELO" a very bad translation happened, but stuck around cause it sounds better than "MMR" or "Tier". This originally meant your average score would be higher if you were that good. You are reading to much into a modified saying and not understanding the context.

Now you can be a diamond level player actually climbing to diamond when new. You saying that you are is not what will prove that you are climbing but your match history. Consistently winning your games shows that you are climbing and that your moving forward. At this point we know the system does not know where you belong.

The saying you are griping about is not for people with sub 100 games in ranked. Riot claimed in season 3 that it takes 100 + games for it to find your true level. That is with the assumption that you do not fix a flaw or meta does not shift in away that effect your play style.

Then div 3 in all divisions is pretty much a bump up in skill. Div 5 is usually a safety spot for inconsistent or spike elo players. They got their it was partly them being on a streak or lucky and normally would fall if not for the safety systems. The only div this does not apply to is bronze.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I like your post. I am a geek for mistranslations. After a brief stint reading the BIble I got on a cross ref kick about the origin of stories. But what about the chicken or the egg concept? Rise before reward is the correct way to say it but people act like it is Rank than rise to the rank. Can someone be good but be on bad teams. I like your explanation. Once you have amassed a lot of games probability sways in the correct direction.

Cool.

Angry Monster1 votes

what about the chicken or the egg concept?

Egg was first since they exist without chickens. As long as you believe in logical evolution the question is a no brainier.

Rise before reward is the correct way to say it but people act like it is Rank than rise to the rank.

Only those that believe that they deserve X, act like Rank than rise to the rank.

Can someone be good but be on bad teams.

occasionally yes, constantly no. Everyone can make a mistake or have a bad game. We are all human (minus the AIs that play) and can mess from time to time. If you are consistently bad (make mistakes) then you are not good.

Matthias91191 votes

If you are Silver 5 do you get to Silver 4 then start playing like a Silver 4 after your promo series? If you get trolled or paired poorly on 3 games does that mean you were not worthy after all? If you are so good that you can carry against 1 or more trolls are you still only as good as a Silver 4 or are you now S3?

Just "promoting" or "demoting" is not really meaningful, since anyone can have a lucky/unlucky streak due to things totally out of their control. Maybe you keep getting players DCing on your team, or you keep getting easy wins due to DCs on the enemy team, or your Internet cut out and made you lose. Or you kept getting teams that were all ADC mains or something. When this happens the player usually corrects back to where they "should" be pretty quickly, since your MMR doesn't change much in just a few matches.

But when you play 50+ matches ìn the same division and are close to a 50% winrate, it's pretty safe to say you are where you ought to be on the ladder. After 100 or so in the same division it's nearly impossible for it to be a fluke. That's what people mean by "if you were better you would be in a higher division".

Edit:

Ignoring, of course, people who are in a "V" division but really have an MMR that's way down in the next tier. But those are obvious by looking at who they're going up against. I should have said a "50% winrate against players in the same division".

BakedLotion1 votes

Ranked is based off of how many trolls, afks and feeders you have. Not your skill.

You have one of those ^ people? Lose. You don't gg you win

Occams Raiser1 votes

I think that bullshit plays a bigger part in the game than many want to admit. But i suppose the argument about if you play a shit ton of games even trolls and afks can't sway your skill level. That is possibly true but because it is probability it is also possible false.

warpenguin5551 votes

if you were better you would have a higher rank is 100% true. even if a troll/afk costs you your promos, if you are truely ranked too low, you should be good enough to get back in there for another shot and win no doubts about it.

Occams Raiser1 votes

When I wrote this thread I knew people were going to get confused about the difference between the statement and the statement of the statement.

Godhri1 votes

You know... a month ago I would have disagreed with you. But after going on a losing spree dropping me from Plat 3 to Plat 5 and my mmr down to Gold and High Silver level, I have to say that I agree. In a large majority of the games I lost, it was a result of my team feeding or someone afking (though this only happened once). A portion of the games I lost was definitely my own misplay that lost the game but in the majority, it was definitely my team.

I was in complete disbelief when I just kept losing one game after another. It was unbelievable that I could lose so many ranked games even though I always won my lane at least by a small margin if not by a large one. Winning games used to give me 20-28 LP; now, they give me 10-12. At one point, a loss reduced my LP by a whopping 29 LP!

So, to sum it up, I agree with you. Unless you are much better than the current division of players, you will not be able to move out of it as easily. Especially if you've just gone on a 15 game losing streak (yes that happened).

Occams Raiser1 votes

Thanks. Many don't understand probability. I think you have to be good to rise but if you have to be a D3 player to make it out D5 you are better than your level. People act like it impossible for a person to be better than their rank. I consider myself to be a good strategist, but how far is that going to take me when I am a team of people that aren't concerned with what I have to say. They don't know me so I understand why they wouldn't. It is hard to organically become the shot caller. I know the more games you play the better the SYSTEM is SUPPOSED to be able to place you. I guess I have to play more.

And I assume that you did not get hit on the head and lose your skill levels so for all purposes you are a PLAT 3 player with some bad luck, playing against some guys that should more than likely be kicking ass on. If probability serves you that is.

Godhri1 votes

well probability seems to be rearing its head my way again. I won 6 out of 9 ranked games today. I hope you get some good matchups too.

Occams Raiser1 votes

you too

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