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Bad positioning is more forgiving for melee bruiser, that is the problem with the whole Class,

taleofsonata·Apr 9, 2019·2 votes·1,316 views

A DPS and a Tank or off Tank. That is why alot of the bruiser winrates are much higher than before, get caught and still wins trades etc.

and Conqueror,

These items literally lower the skillcaps of a champions, that is why champions like Riven have a high playrate and Winrate.

Bruiser are suppose to be considered a hard class as a whole to play, and require more mechanics and positioning overall. Personally I think that they should make Bruiser more punishable, Example: If a Bruiser stands still and eat soo many skillshots, they should theoretically DIE. But in this season it is not the case, Huge amount of health and lifesteal and sterak cage nullify bad positioning.

Hashinshin keeps saying that bruiser items are hella expensive, but in truth: They have to be expensive because of the amount of power it gives to the champion.

Who needs ADC and Tanks when you can play Bruisers?

Bruisers: I'm about to end these classes whole career.

What makes Hashinshin better this season? His gameplay hasn't change at all, Run it down on someone until it works.

He use to be harstuck diamond 4 for 2 seasons, what changed this season soo he got magically better at the game? I want you guys to think about it.

11 Comments

SuicidePlankApr 9, 20191 votes

Hashinshin also says (and I agree on that one) that Riven is completly bs.

Critmaster GarenApr 9, 20191 votes

have you even watched this video yourself? none of what he talked about was a specific problem with bruisers.

at the end there he even said, that there is a systematic problem with the game, that makes supposedly high learning curve champions easy to perform well with, even if youre not an expert at them.

infact this includes marksmen, and tanks.

he didnt just talk about bruisers and riven specifically, but also thresh, vayne and similar champions.

part of it is their itemization, part of it is specific runes interacting with their kits, and part of it is the game pacing overall.

now the question is, how bad that actually is. the champions being overtuned is obviously terrible, but a lot of champions always had this problem that they were significantly stronger or weaker in different divisions in solo que and in pro play. if you can make a champion viable at low mmr and high mmr with almost the same winrates, shouldnt this be a good thing?

of course they shouldnt be straight up overpowered across the entire ladder like vayne is currently, and riven shouldnt be overpowered from diamond to challenger.

taleofsonataApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoB4KfKc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-09T12:50:10.240+0000)

have you even watched this video yourself? none of what he talked about was a specific problem with bruisers.

at the end there he even said, that there is a systematic problem with the game, that makes supposedly high learning curve champions easy to perform well with, even if youre not an expert at them.

he didnt just talk about bruisers and riven specifically, but also thresh, vayne and similar champions.

part of it is their itemization, part of it is specific runes interacting with their kits, and part of it is the game pacing overall.

When he was talking about itemization of Riven, he also mentioned that you could go Jax, Renekton and do the same thing. And while also talking about those soo called high skill cap champions, the other champions doesn't represent their whole classes, If you compare Vayne to other ADC, there is a clear powercurve much bigger for vayne than the other adcs, Same goes to Tresh, Zed etc.

Critmaster GarenApr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

When he was talking about itemization of Riven, he also mentioned that you could go Jax, Renekton and do the same thing. And while also talking about those soo called high skill cap champions, the other champions doesn't represent their whole classes, If you compare Vayne to other ADC, there is a clear powercurve much bigger for vayne than the other adcs, Same goes to Tresh, Zed etc.

Caitlyn Ezreal Tristana Jinx Jhin etc.

a lot of these marksmen are downright braindead easy to play while theyre still incredibly effective when ahead.

Vayne doesnt take skill to pick up and play either, as is evident by her statistics. people who play their first 50 games with her already achieve on average 50% winrate.

this isnt just a bruiser thing. item 3046 and item 3026 + their 2 item power spikes instead of being reliant on 3 or 4 items, made marksmen a lot more forgiving to play. over the past couple of seasons, marksmen gained a lot of additional safety nets that they can comfortably fit into their builds without delaying their power spikes anymore.

what he was talking about was that a lot of those "high learning curve champions" had their overall skill floor drastically lowered.

this doesnt just include bruisers, but is something that happened across all classes.

taleofsonataApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoB4KfKc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-09T13:01:37.823+0000)

etc.

a lot of these marksmen are downright braindead easy to play while theyre still incredibly effective when ahead.

doesnt take skill to pick up and play either, as is evident by her statistics. people who play their first 50 games with her already achieve on average 50% winrate.

this isnt just a bruiser thing. and made marksmen a lot more forgiving to play.

what he was talking about was that a lot of those "high learning curve champions" had their overall skill floor drastically lowered.

this doesnt just include bruisers, but is something that happened across all classes.

The difference with marksman current itemization vs bruiser is the fact that their whole class by default is squishy.

Thats why while watching LCK if an Irelia jumped on an ADC even with phantom dancer, the ADC would surely dies. There's almost little to no counterplay even with the amount of peel the ADC gets.

Heck even LCK starts running Sona + Taric bottom strats focusing on protecting Irelia, Olaf, or Hecarim while they dive down the ADC with ludicrous damage and tankyness.

Critmaster GarenApr 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Thats why while watching LCK if an Irelia jumped on an ADC even with phantom dancer, the ADC would surely dies.

i disagree. this isnt a guarantee.

irelia generally doesnt have the capabilities to 1 combo an adc with pd from full health even if she lands all of her abilities. what youre talking about it highly situational.

what kind of support does the marksman have? a lulu or nami alone are enough to save him and then disengage from the irelia. does the marksman have item 3046 item 3026 or item 3072 + overheal shield stacked up? does he have summoner 7 or summoner 3 available?

there are so many hypothetical factors here, that you cant possibly make a generalistic statement that the marksman would always die. there are quite a few scenarios here possible in which he clearly survives, even if he shouldnt.

Heck even LCK starts running Sona + Taric bottom strats focusing on protecting Irelia, Olaf, or Hecarim while they dive down the ADC with ludicrous damage and tankyness.

sona + taric relies on broken support itemization (yes, i said it) and scaling up on those additional gold gains. it has less to do with adc vs. other classes in general, and more specifically with the synergy between those two champions, and the items they buy.

taleofsonataApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoB4KfKc,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-09T13:13:21.984+0000)

i disagree. this isnt a guarantee.

irelia doesnt have the capabilities to 1 combo an adc even if she lands all of her abilities. what youre talking about it highly situational.

what kind of support does the marksman have? a lulu or nami alone are enough to save him and then disengage from the irelia. does the marksman have or shield stacked up? does he have or available?

there are so many hypothetical factors here, that you cant possibly make a generalistic statement that the marksman would always die. there are quite a few scenarios here possible in which he clearly survives.

sona + taric relies on broken support itemization (yes, i said it) and scaling up on those additional gold gains. it has less to do with adc vs. other classes in general, and more specifically with the synergy between those two champions, and the items they buy.

So after all these Support itemization nerfs over the years, you still have the guts to call support itemization broken? Not Bruisers itemization broken? Have you watched LCK lately when irelia, Olaf and Hecarim literally facerolling tanks and ADC?

https://youtu.be/ycywJYZevAI?t=203

just look at it, Engaged still survives and kills everything.

https://youtu.be/ycywJYZevAI?t=278 Another example.

https://youtu.be/ycywJYZevAI?t=347 Irelia jumps on Jinx and Vladimir, still survives to murder Bloodthirsty Jinx but dies to Vladimir.

At the end of the game Both Jayce and Irelia does more damage than the ennemy team.

Critmaster GarenApr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So after all these Support itemization nerfs over the years, you still have the guts to call support itemization broken?

yes. evidently it is what makes a double support lane work. if you just get gold for free and for poking your opponent, instead of having to farm up for it, then it seems like its maybe a bit on the strong side. why do you think, other lanes have abused the shit out of support items multiple times over the years and riot had to change it again and again to not work in solo lanes?

because to make supports not feel like garbage to play on a 0cs budget, their items have to be so gold efficient that they have to literally pay for themselves, while support kits have to be so powerful without items, that they dont need much in items to be played effective.

just look at it, Engaged still survives and kills everything.

and you know why they survived the engagement and turned the fight?

**because taric pressed r. **

which of this is a problem with bruisers specifically? you could literally do the same shit and build around making a marksman like vayne practically invincible.

infact ive recently seen a game like that, where they had two supports doing the same shit with vayne. one of them was taric. he just ulted, both supports peeled and cced for her and she proceeded to kill the entire enemy team.

you could do this with jinx, tristana, or any marksman. it deosnt even matter.

seems to me this is specifically a thing with taric and how crazy powerful his ultimate is in semi organized play.

Death by GlamourApr 9, 20191 votes

sona + taric relies on broken support itemization

The only support item they build are gold generation/sightstone. Taric goes tank while sona goes archangels and lichbane, how you can say that this is broken then try to defend bruiser itemisation. You are generally one of the most reasonable posters on these boards, how can you not just admit that mobile bruisers are an issue.

taleofsonataApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoB4KfKc,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-09T13:59:08.864+0000)

The only support item they build are gold generation/sightstone. Taric goes tank while sona goes archangels and lichbane, how you can say that this is broken then try to defend bruiser itemisation. You are generally one of the most reasonable posters on these boards, how can you not just admit that mobile bruisers are an issue.

He is very biased, bruisers could be sitting at 55% winrate for the whole season he still considers them underpowered just like Hashinshin. He proceed to then compare the value of bruiser to other classes and always seems to make bruiserd looks weak but infact it should be the opposite. Bruisers: -Tanky -High Sustained Burst Damage but noooo for Him a Jinx can faceroll a Jax, Renekton when in reality anything that touches a bruiser instantly dies.

But sometimes he does point out good things like: how its unfun to fight Kennen as a Melee, but at the same time I'm thinking, is it really that big of an issue? Range bully top lane have a rather low playrate and low winrate, their only purpose is to bully someone out of lane and delay item powerspike to melee bruisers.

Critmaster GarenApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MoB4KfKc,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-09T13:59:08.864+0000)

The only support item they build are gold generation/sightstone. Taric goes tank while sona goes archangels and lichbane, how you can say that this is broken then try to defend bruiser itemisation.

i didnt defend the way certain fighters itemize.

tarics sightstone is also a gold generation item.

maybe i havent explained myself well enough. supports and support itemization have to be kindof broken by default to make them even playable on a 0 cs budget.

support itemization has to literally pay for itself for supports to be able to buy items. thats why we have seen so much support item abuse in other lanes in the past. the recent episode of item 3303 in other lanes showed, that it was actually more profitable to buy this item and not cs, than to farm minions. some champions would actually get more gold out of poking their lane opponent with this item than to farm. (until the item was changed to only work in a duo lane)

in this case its an abuse case in that youre running two support champions in the same lane and double up on gold generation. taric has remnant of the aspect and farms minions, and sona has spellthief. both generate a crapton of free gold from their support items while farming the minions.

at the same time, support kits are also extremely effective without items through their utility already.

in case of the sona taric bot lane, it doesnt have anything to do with the champions theyre fighting being "too weak", nor does it have anything to do with fighter items. its an isolated case like with the entire yi + taric gold funneling strategy.

effectively it boils down to that tarics ult is insanely powerful when used in organized play. out of this strategy theyre getting two supports who are incredibly well farmed, to empower one player on their team who then becomes almost unstoppable. when the op put up the video of the team getting engaged on and turning that entire fight around, it was clearly a result of tarics ult, and not bruiser itemization in this case.

you could swap olaf or irelia for any carry, including marksmen that theyre supporting and the outcome would be the same. infact ive seen something like this recently happening with vayne, where two supports just stacked protection on her, one of them being taric.

how can you not just admit that mobile bruisers are an issue.

as far as champions like Irelia Camille Jax and other mobile fighters using juggernaut items like item 3053 goes, this is indeed a problem bcause theyre stacking their own evasion tools on top of the burst resistance they gain off the item, while not losing out on damage.

but its a different problem than the whole sona/taric thing. they arent connected. riot had already solved this on steraks gages release by making the item not grant bonus ad, but then just messed it up. instead of making changes to sheen to deal with trigage burst, they broke steraks gage.

literally the simplest fix would have been to have sheen procs calculate before steraks base ad increase instead of after, and the entire issue would have been fixed and everything would have been fine.

the guy in the video in the op was even trying to make an entirely different point that doesnt have anything to do with the topics i just discussed. he wasnt just talking about that bruisers have become more forgiving to play, but a lot of champions from different classes in general that used to have steep learning curves became easier to perform with when youre just picking them up for the first time.

he mentions Riven but also Thresh Zed and you can clearly throw Vayne into the mix.

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