Who was this item intended to benefit? What was the design process behind this item? And why did you not playtest it on every champion that could conceivably build it? No one has tried to deny the fact that it breaks Jhin.
Beatrice falls22 votesFor Jhin actually, they stated it themselves on the patch where they introduced it lmao.
Lord Malpercio4 votesAnd in all honesty, for Jhin, it's -okay-
It's just they gave it a random ass attack speed scaling that drops down to 1 second crits so that ANYONE AND THEIR MOTHER can abuse the item.
Jaegaer5 votesANYONE AND THEIR MOTHER
That line makes me cringe.
Spank the Fox8 votesThe word cringe makes me cringe.
Alzon1 votesBut he didn’t say “Simon says”.
Flawless Fetus14 votesBecause early/mid rng crits felt bad to get hit by. So they made an item to make early/mid crits 100%. Rito :^)
DuskDaUmbreon11 votesFor Jhin, MF, and the other burst ADCs who were using crit because of crit being strong burst rather than using crit for the tank busting.
PopcornBunni6 votesFor Jhin, MF, and the other burst ADCs who were using crit because of crit being strong burst rather than using crit for the tank busting.
"Using crit for the tank busting"
[sg-lux-2]
Tanks are literally designed to be strong against burst damage and have an entire item dedicated against crit especially. ADCs never were "tank busters" because of crit, it's because of their sustained 
mixed 
%health 
AoE 
35% true 
draintank 
right clicking ability.
TehNACHO9 votesI think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of Crit in regards to Marksmen historically if you think Crit is identified purely on the basis of burst. GP is probably the only champion that really falls into that pattern, maybe Tryndamere level 1 if you want to get technical, but back when Phantom Dancer was red and Infinity Edge was basically the only (good) AD Crit item, Crit builds were almost exclusively left to DPS tank busters because of a fundamental understanding that Crit adds a third multiplier to Auto Attacking (AD+C+AS) vs Tanks only having two multipliers (Health+Armor). Critical Strike almost never was weak vs Tanks and for the most part, the best Tank Busters before Guinsoo's/Devourer/On-Hit builds really took off were Critical Strike users, champion specific examples being exceptions.
SociaI Justice2 votes[deleted]
Alzon1 votesStar Guardian stickers*
ftfy
AirKingNeo2 votesThat's just mean.
SociaI Justice1 votesthis is the high quality post i'd expect from le meme arrow guy
Slythrin Umbreon2 votesputting out one crit with an empowered ability/auto and sometimes 
every few seconds, or on a long CD ult like MF, Jhin, or GP is burst.
Putting out 2 or more crits per second with attack speed is sustained damage.
DeusVult6 votesbut crit DPS is also meant to be able to kill tanks, it just takes a longer amount of time to get to. 
gives you a bunch of attack speed, 100% crit and 10% true damage conversion on crit damage.
isnt meant for killing tanks, it is meant for ranged poke tied to auto-attacks, which Riot had said they were trying to get away from. But Riot doesnt listen to Riot
Shablagoo1 votesCool we should remove them from the game, because long range undodgeable nukes are unhealthy and unfun. Its literally the whole reason they reworked crit, was so adc wouldnt be tank busters and burst champions. Mf doesnt melt tanks be she is great against them same is with jihn. The worst part is the item has been problematic on assassins. And now Graves is literally one of the most overpowered champion with the item, its not a healthy item for the game. Almost as unhealthy as DB.
Slim Gragas4 votesThe real reason is that ADCs cried for a couple patches or so after their base damage got nerfed, so they gave them some overpowered burst "ADC-oriented" to make it up to them, it's always a love letter to them. Every top-tier ADC uses it as well as champions in other roles.
Spank the Fox9 votesEvery top tier ADC is only top tier because of Stormrazor, not the other way around.
I hate the fact Ashe, Sivir, and Xayah had to trade ER for this bullshit, but everything pales compared to Stormrazor. Almost all ADC players would be glad if they destroyed Stormrazor.
Anu3isII1 votesIn my opinion, the problem about ER is the item itself. I would personally take the Crit version or even the previous one with Life Steal over the current one any time. Its ultimate-based passive feels too restricted and without it, the item feels mediocre compared to any other AD item.
Tin Obliterates3 votes
chipndip13 votesThey made it to smooth out marksman power curves, which it did in spades. Idk why you're asking...
Thefrostyviking3 votesThey made it to smooth out marksman power curves, which it did in spades. Idk why you're asking...
It just made them much more prone to snowball and burst the daylight out of people at 2 items for a rather cheaper price than before.
If you get IE third its a higher power at 3 items because only tanks really survive your first few shots x)
It also conveniently guts any marksman that cant use it, Ashe is pretty much a ult bot with 0 fighting potential and Kog.....what is a kog?And a kalista?
I dunno, i havent seen them for the last 100 games or more....
chipndip12 votesIt just made them much more prone to snowball and burst the daylight out of people at 2 items for a rather cheaper price than before.
You're so wrong I can't really emphasize it without being insulting so I won't.
If you get IE third its a higher power at 3 items because only tanks really survive your first few shots x)
That's because marksmen cried for buffs over and over. The initial thing did its job wonderfully. The buffs that came after to help crit marksmen along is what ruined everything the mid season meant to do.
It also conveniently guts any marksman that cant use it, Ashe is pretty much a ult bot with 0 fighting potential and Kog.....what is a kog?And a kalista?
Kog and Kali are gutted because they're fucking terrible designs.
Also, marksmen have always been in this space where viability revolves around one specific itemization choice and the few that use it the best. Stormrazor being king isn't any different from BF + Zeal being king, or lethality being king. The same trifecta marksman meta always crawls back up.
Thefrostyviking2 votesYou're so wrong I can't really emphasize it without being insulting so I won't.
At 2 items stormrazor+static beats a IE+static build.
The reason is simple, its much cheaper, so you end up getting it sooner and to top things off, with IE and static alone its not certain that you will get those static shiv crits to ensure good damage from it.
With stormrazor+static its 100% certain that your first auto will crit, which with static means that you always get a fat chunk of bonus damage on the first auto, which is burst.
Which helps squishy carries murder eachother faster and snowball.
That's because marksmen cried for buffs over and over. The initial thing did its job wonderfully. The buffs that came after to help crit marksmen along is what ruined everything the mid season meant to do.
Stormrazor was the only great "buff" received.......and marksmen everywhere wrote that adding this item was a terrible idea if the idea was to lower burst, tons of people made posts about it both before and after its launch into live.
But it was true that some marksmen needed help, Ashe for instance was in a extremely terrible spot just post the crit changes, the higher gold costs made lanebullies that didnt need much gold insanely strong which set her and others into a gutter.
Kog and Kali are gutted because they're fucking terrible designs.
If terrible design was a issue they would gut/nerf far more champs, they just happen to ignore a bunch for completely unexplained reasons......or well kalista was indeed stated to be as such but nothing was said for kog and the others.
And rather, kog was never an issue by himself, he was only ever broken when rageblade/ardent censer or lulu were.
Also, marksmen have always been in this space where viability revolves around one specific itemization choice and the few that use it the best. Stormrazor being king isn't any different from BF + Zeal being king, or lethality being king. The same trifecta marksman meta always crawls back up.
I happen to main Ashe as my second most played, and before i could chose from 3 possible item paths......essence reaver, infinity edge or botrk for my first item.......well hurricane was always second but some differences were possible post that.
Now? Essence reaver isnt good on her anymore.
IE cant be rushed the way it could before.
New shiny item stormrazor crit passive cant be used for damage and the item is thus pointless.
Thus botrk is the only path left.........but it feels like shit to have to rush it against a team with no tanks or even a solid frontline just to survive lane against the now much more powerful early game that the stormrazor users bring.
Zedex1 votesBecause he lost to someone who built it, and he's hoping to get chime in responses like , "It never should have existed, its so broken!"
Thefrostyviking1 votesBecause he lost to someone who built it, and he's hoping to get chime in responses like , "It never should have existed, its so broken!"
Broken it might not be own its own.
But its definitely contrary to the entire item update and what Riot promised regarding early damage.
AnAggravatedPimp2 votesMy guess is it's to front load damage. So that ADCs don't hav to build a ton of crit items to still crit but if they don't one shot an enemy or hav enough sustain/damage to survive after that crit they die.
RedCyclone2 votesI fucking hate this item
This item gave so many champions who were previously not about "1 shotting" into 1 shotting assassins
I hope to god it gets removed soon, it's an incredibly dumb item that just is not healthy for the game
Mizaya2 votesStattik Shiv + IE used to give strong frontloaded damage WHILE being a traditional DPS build.
Stormrazor gives some frontloaded damage but delays your DPS power curve. It benefits bursty adcs but is still built on many dps adcs (it shouldn't be) because of how the adc changes went.
Jhin is totally fine btw, just strong. I know it's blasphemous to say that on here but look at what the high elo players prefer to play.
Thefrostyviking2 votesStattik Shiv + IE used to give strong frontloaded damage WHILE being a traditional DPS build.
Stormrazor gives some frontloaded damage but delays your DPS power curve. It benefits bursty adcs but is still built on many dps adcs (it shouldn't be) because of how the adc changes went.
Jhin is totally fine btw, just strong. I know it's blasphemous to say that on here but look at what the high elo players prefer to play.
Except there are two rather massive differences you are just ignoring here.
First up, IE+static shiv costs 600 gold more than stormrazor+static.
Secondly, stormrazor guarantees the first auto will crit, which has MAX synergy with static shiv, unlike IE which needs you to add another crit item to be sure.
Thus stormrazor removes RNG and just adds flat power, a rather great one, which often leads to great snowballing.
Mizaya1 votesThe reason old IE + statikk cost more (and only 400 gold more I thought?) is because the DPS from that spike is just so much higher. And if you had, say, 100 AD not including the AD from these items, you literally crit for 100 more damage from IE not even including the shiv damage. At 2 items on ADC you are not in laning phase anymore, you're expected to be doing consistent damage.
As for your second point, i hardly ever see people building shiv 2nd item after rfc unless its on quinn.
Soooo, if you're not Draven or Jhin I can say that this item is really not as good as boards makes it seem.
Thefrostyviking1 votesThe reason old IE + statikk cost more (and only 400 gold more I thought?) is because the DPS from that spike is just so much higher. And if you had, say, 100 AD not including the AD from these items, you literally crit for 100 more damage from IE not even including the shiv damage. At 2 items on ADC you are not in laning phase anymore, you're expected to be doing consistent damage.
As for your second point, i hardly ever see people building shiv 2nd item after rfc unless its on quinn.
Soooo, if you're not Draven or Jhin I can say that this item is really not as good as boards makes it seem.
Old IE is fairly irrelevant now though? I was comparing to the current one......it costs 3400 gold while stomrazor sits at 2,8 k.
And 2 item marksman doing consistent damage against a tank at 2 items is a pipe dream.
You need 3 things to deal with a tank that has the brains to get thornmail or just if they have some defensive steroid or high armor at all from a early point.
Damage.
Armor pen to ensure your damage gets through their resistances.
Lifesteal, to avoid murdering yourself on their thorns, i´ve done this multiple times by being careless, literally chunked out 80% of my own health by shooting a thornmail before i realized something was wrong.......well that was a rammus but he wasnt directly hitting me back either.
Done similar things against Seju and nautilus although not quite so extreme.
As a AD marksman to be relevant against a serious tank you need 4 items at the very least, onhit marksman get around this since they tend to have high base magic max health damage and then then there is vayne.
Everyone else sits by the 4 items rule......except MF who can get black cleaver at 3rd and just ulti i guess <.<
Mizaya1 votesHow is it irrelevant when the whole reason stormrazor was made was because old IE + Shiv was seen as too universally strong? My whole point is that it's ridiculous to say that stormrazor is anywhere near old IE in terms of power.
I was saying nothing about tanks, of course having stormrazor and rapidfire you are throwing pebbles at a tank at that point in the game but for most ADs stormrazor + rapidfire is a huge downgrade from old IE in general.
Also you don't really need armor pen anymore with new IE, just the new IE sucks early game because the true damage is not too relevant against anyone who isn't a tank.
Thefrostyviking1 votesHow is it irrelevant when the whole reason stormrazor was made was because old IE + Shiv was seen as too universally strong? My whole point is that it's ridiculous to say that stormrazor is anywhere near old IE in terms of power.
It wasnt just old IE+static by themselves that was a problem, the crit chance of those together was......50%? So you had to get rapidfire as well to truly make static crits certain and busting squishes easy......sure lucky crits did happen but it wasnt as much.
And how much damage do you actually need to kill a marksman and a non tank support? Most fights down botlane end nearly instantly x)
Stormrazor fills the job of creating powerful poke, couple this with a static shiv and you can truly blast someone for a nice spike of damage,,,,, but while the removal of the 50% bonus damage on a crit did lower the max potential of that "spike" its kinda offset by how much earlier you can get stormrazor in turn, and the fact that you only need 2 items to milk out max burst.
Get it earlier? People have less max health and less resistances which means they end up losing more health to the same trick.
I was saying nothing about tanks, of course having stormrazor and rapidfire you are throwing pebbles at a tank at that point in the game but for most ADs stormrazor + rapidfire is a huge downgrade from old IE in general.
Its not really, the much earlier powerspike does so much its hard to explain it simply.
But look at the "main" users of stormrazor, being 
, its true that they often do not rush static right after stormrazor but its also true that they have some other greater benefit granted by rushing rapidfire instead, or whatever else they get.
Well while it varies a bit it usually boils down to either poke or runaan synergy, rapidfire+stormrazor affords heavy poke which allows anyone getting it early to easily secure lane dominance even against a threatening enemy botlane giving them no room to trade back , but if we are simply looking to burst a lone someone outright then static is indeed superior.
Also you don't really need armor pen anymore with new IE, just the new IE sucks early game because the true damage is not too relevant against anyone who isn't a tank.
Bullcrap, do you actually even play any marksmen? New IE converts 10% of your crit damage into true damage, unless you intend to have your normal AA damage reach 1500 per hit then usually the true damage wont go over 60-70 per hit which is to say that your autos would deal 600-700 AD damage pre resistances.
But against a tank that has a ton of armor, randuin,ninja tabi, defensive steroids and who even knows how much health?
Most tanks end up hitting 200 armor or more, many like rammus ends up with a shitton more of it or they are like Sion or leona/malphite who boost themselves with barriers/resistance buffs or they are like alistar with a fat and flat damage resistance on demand.
Aftershock is a thing too.
At 250 they have 70% damage reduction from AD sources, if they are like Rammus/leo/seju and are capable of boosting themselves they they easily reach 300 or even more, and all these guys often reach 3-4 k health easily and they get stoneplate too.
A crit of 700? Goes down to deal 210 damage......before reduction from randuin and ninja tabi, good luck getting anything done anytime soon.
Let me tell you, skipping armor pen against anything with over 150 armor is risky, and against anything with enough health and even more armor its plain stupid unless you are playing Vayne.
The only reason we dont see people get armor pen right now is because true tanks are largely missing, i think we have like 4 truly active ones being Sion, Rammus, leona and alistar but not anyone else, but only the last 2 should truly have any significant playrate.
So most people can indeed just skip armor pen, but not because its not needed to deal with armor......rather there is just a lack of people actually building enough armor to make it necessary at all.
MLDzXnRRR1 votesSo most people can indeed just skip armor pen, but not because its not needed to deal with armor......rather there is just a lack of people actually building enough armor to make it necessary at all.
Tanks still get melted fast when focused or by random AOE, if the enemy support is Brand/Zyra/Vel/Fiddle(with ult) or any decent AOE mage middle. People weren't buying armor pen even with the old IE, instead were going into second crit item (even in LCS...) Last time when LW was relevant was in season 5 maybe. I can see something like Jhin or MF (cleaver + LW+ lethality) vs team with tanks getting armor shred, but typical ADC doesn't even need this at all.
Thefrostyviking1 votesTanks still get melted fast when focused or by random AOE, if the enemy support is Brand/Zyra/Vel/Fiddle(with ult) or any decent AOE mage middle. People weren't buying armor pen even with the old IE, instead were going into second crit item (even in LCS...) Last time when LW was relevant was in season 5 maybe. I can see something like Jhin or MF (cleaver + LW+ lethality) vs team with tanks getting armor shred, but typical ADC doesn't even need this at all.
True, armor pen was pushed back to the 4th item slot, maybe 5th even at times......but i am fairly sure it was there at least.
Its just that games dont last long enough and are decided at 20 minutes while 5-6th item comes in at 40 minutes x)
Mizaya1 votesFirst, stormrazor on it's own does 140% on the crit, which realllly isn't that much damage at all. Also, I think you're overestimating how much earlier you get 2 items. Like I said, it's 400 gold than before stormrazor was added. That's 2-3 waves of cs. 1:00-1:30 in game time. This is at most one level difference in the targets you will be hitting than with old IE + Shiv.
Now, I thought to myself while too, stormrazor + zeal item is probably pretty good for poking in lane. However, even if you're csing nearly perfectly and you get, say, 2 kills, to get those 2 items + boots would take around 17-18 minutes at least, when in the current meta laning really doesn't last that long. For example, in my last ranked game I was lucian, and even though I was playing pretty badly in lane and fell behind, at around 15 min or so when Xayah was building her 2nd item after stormrazor and I was on bork only (I was literally down like 2500 gold at this point lol), I was able to easily destroy her in a trade just outside enemy mid tower allowing my team to then take the turret for free.
Now of the champs you listed, I assume Kaisa takes stormrazor because of her Q evolve (combined with pickaxe from rageblade). Jhin is one of those champs that naturally synergizes with the item, Jinx with her rockets can poke (and they buffed her rockets so the bonus damage even crits), sivir and cait are pretty garbage rn so I won't even go there, just know that stormrazor is still the best option for them :).
Lastly the reason you hardly see armor pen is because once again stormrazor is first buy, are you really going to make it to 6 items and sell boots in your average game? no. Because to get 100% crit with stormrazor already takes 4 items that cost 11700-800 gold. So maybe I phrased it wrong saying you don't "need armor pen" but it's more like buying armor pen as an ADC has too big of a cost for your build path unless your game went past 40 min or you got mega fed.
Thefrostyviking1 votesFirst, stormrazor on it's own does 140% on the crit, which realllly isn't that much damage at all. Also, I think you're overestimating how much earlier you get 2 items. Like I said, it's 400 gold than before stormrazor was added. That's 2-3 waves of cs. 1:00-1:30 in game time. This is at most one level difference in the targets you will be hitting than with old IE + Shiv.
Ah true they did nerf the crit a bit, it does take a full zeal item to bring it up to full power.
Now, I thought to myself while too, stormrazor + zeal item is probably pretty good for poking in lane. However, even if you're csing nearly perfectly and you get, say, 2 kills, to get those 2 items + boots would take around 17-18 minutes at least, when in the current meta laning really doesn't last that long. For example, in my last ranked game I was lucian, and even though I was playing pretty badly in lane and fell behind, at around 15 min or so when Xayah was building her 2nd item after stormrazor and I was on bork only (I was literally down like 2500 gold at this point lol), I was able to easily destroy her in a trade just outside enemy mid tower allowing my team to then take the turret for free.
xayah is pretty weak if she cant land her E though, and her DPS isnt all that high either at that point which means she often needs help to properly setup her E´s from the support.
Lucian meanwhile is a early bully and he has the mobility and damage to mess with her, winning kinda seems natural even if you are behind all the way up to...3 items i guess? After that her W will hurt too much.
Now of the champs you listed, I assume Kaisa takes stormrazor because of her Q evolve (combined with pickaxe from rageblade). Jhin is one of those champs that naturally synergizes with the item, Jinx with her rockets can poke (and they buffed her rockets so the bonus damage even crits), sivir and cait are pretty garbage rn so I won't even go there, just know that stormrazor is still the best option for them :).
You got kai sa right but its worth mentioning that her pauses to use abilities also help get good use from the item, she can also back off a bit then ulti back in to get a surefire crit +Q to almost assassinate someone.
JInx does indeed use it to poke.
And both Sivir and cait are really strong if played well right now, just not as good as the top tier picks who are really OP.
Lastly the reason you hardly see armor pen is because once again stormrazor is first buy, are you really going to make it to 6 items and sell boots in your average game? no. Because to get 100% crit with stormrazor already takes 4 items that cost 11700-800 gold. So maybe I phrased it wrong saying you don't "need armor pen" but it's more like buying armor pen as an ADC has too big of a cost for your build path unless your game went past 40 min or you got mega fed.
Games not lasting long enough to reach the point where you buy armor pen as a marksman and not needing armor pen are two quite different concepts i think x)
Infinity edge is already a massive pain in the ass needing 2 full zeal items to truly get going, stacking armor pen and lifesteal on that is indeed a massive investment that takes a lot of time to archive even when doing well......which often doesnt happen because games are indeed over by then.
Its important to make distinctions and to be clear least confusion and messes pop up for no reason other than someone being unclear.
invisiblecat12 votesI hate how Riot seems to NEVER learn from their mistakes
They turn rengar's guaranteed crit on his R to bonus damage because they realized that guaranteed crits are a bad idea
And then they go and create
The King Diamond2 votesI see Stormrazor built on every adc actually. Almost every game. Pretty stupid. What should be nerfed for sure is that passive with crit. Seriously, that 1.5 second cd is busted af. Make it atleast 4 sec.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesFor marksmen who want to poke in lane with auto attacks.
as some examples.
It gives you stronger poke by granting you AD and a guaranteed (even if weakened) crit and grants you movement speed to prevent retaliation and drop minion aggro. Jhin just got especially mentioned in the patch notes because he synergises with it so well, since his fixed attack speed let's him proc it basically every time he auto attacks.
saltran1 votesStormR is worse than a lethality item on MF for early.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesI don't play her, so I can just go for the data I have in front of me. And at least on lolalytics (the website I personally use), Stormrazor has the highest winrate for Miss Fortune as the first item, higher than Ghostblade and Duskblade.
SettDownShutUp1 votesWell, I assume they made it so that Hecarim could have a burst of movespeed for his escape AFTER he's charged at you at Mac 5 and 1 shot your tristana after she flashed AND rocket jumped.
Saibbo1 votesWith Stormrazor, we're introducing an item for marksmen with longer pauses between attacks
name an ADC that doesn't build it regardless, and not just ADC even assassins
ShadowRockLee1 votesSo that zero skill graves players can one shot people for no reason.
Disulfiram1 votesTo add more frontloaded burst. It's a response to their playerbase, who has been begging, literally begging them for 2 seasons straight, to reduce frontloaded burst. And that response is "f u".
Zaghyr1 votesThe shit needs to be reworked. It's current design is unhealthy and broken. I like the idea of having a DPS item that gives damage at the start of the fight, but this item gives burst damage at the start of the fight and can be repeated endlessly if you have even a small amount of bonus attack speed.
I have made a thread or 2 before about it and as a response to a Rioter comment, and I would recommend making the item a 
upgrade.
It would buid out of 
, , and another AD or AS item, it would still give AD and AS but now instead of crits it would Energize and empower your next attack. To ensure that the item would remain a DPS item and not be abused for burst, the empowered attack would not apply on a single hit, instead of would apply on your next 3 basic attacks, but the damage amounts would be smaller and add up to the same, if not a little more, damage as Shiv and Firecannon. It would still scale with AS in a way because it would charge faster the faster you are attacking. You could also add another passive or modify the damage effect so that you get a burst of movement speed on each attack.
This way your first attacks in combat with someone are still stronger but it will not be burst and it would be healthier to use overall.
Kaisa is Hot1 votesIn all honesty I don't know why they touched crit items period. Just revert everything and the game will actually be more balanced.
Phhase1 votesStormrazor was a gift from the gods to the poor suffering Nocturne mains such as I, that we might finally have a good option to annihilate our foes.
