Every other Juggernaut actually feels like a Juggernaut due to their strong base stats

Malicious Metal·Nov 24, 2016·56 votes·2,651 views

Meanwhile Mordekaiser feels like a tin can most of the time because he needs items to actually get tanky.

Like, wit the changes to Rylais can we finally address the problem that is Mordekaiser's pitiful bases? Because I can live with a Rylais that sucks for most mages and is niche item if the champ I play can actually get away with building a slot inefficient item without gimping his late game so tremendously.

100 Comments

Over InnsmouthNov 24, 201628 votes

So Mordekaiser is a Jugger_not_?

TheIronRevenantNov 25, 20168 votes

plz stop

A Basic IslandNov 25, 20166 votes

pls, gtfo and uninstall

that one was painful :'(

Over InnsmouthNov 25, 201615 votes

Nah, that wasnt painful.

Shattering a glass window, that's pane-ful.

HawkefireNov 25, 20167 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/qeA0jZAlsCHAI/giphy.gif

DarkRitualNov 25, 20161 votes

And a truck loaded with windows is pane-full.

MelledoneusNov 24, 201621 votes

"Every other tank feels like a tank due to their strong base stats. But Shen feels like a squishy ninja because he needs items to actually get tanky."

Shen Welcome to the club, Murder Kaiserneko.

RalanrNov 24, 201621 votes

Sion : Allow me to introduce myself as the President of "Low base stats despite the rest of our class being known for high base stats club" Sion : Or LBSDRCKHBC.

MelledoneusNov 25, 201617 votes

Nautilus But president, don't you get HP for every unit you kill- Zac And have a shield for %max HP that can also damage- Maokai And are basically rewarded for dying in team fights? Sion Sh-SHUT UP ALL OF YOU! You all are being built AP!

youngjake93Nov 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But president, don't you get HP for every unit you kill- And have a shield for %max HP that can also damage- And are basically rewarded for dying in team fights? Sh-SHUT UP ALL OF YOU! You all are being built AP.

Funny thing about this is Jaurim's Fist can give them all HP for every unity you kill, Nautilus has an even bigger %max HP shield that gives him even more dmg Zac is rewarded even heavier for dying in team fight And Maokai has %Dmg reduction, the cream of the crop for tanks

Papa AndreiNov 25, 20162 votes

Literally just full tank rune page for him. and then go jg cause new krugs and raptors help him sooo much.

RalanrNov 25, 20162 votes

Personally I don't like new Krugs because I start red buff and don't like to back track.

Papa AndreiNov 25, 20161 votes

i just like having 300 bonus health from farming pre 15 minutes xD

Latex ChokerNov 25, 20165 votes

They literally buffed Shen's base HP by like 200 this patch though. He sits at a 1950~ now.

MelledoneusNov 25, 20164 votes

LET ME BE SALTY FOR A LITTLE LONGER

TheHurricaneGamrNov 25, 20161 votes

I don't think that the base stats are going to bring Shen back. Since his rework, all of his core items have been nerfed ( item 3068 item 3748 item 3512 ), his health regen got nerfed, and this Q got a significant nerf. In addition, his rework introduced this feast-or-famine playstyle, which is not supposed to be a characteristic of the tank class. He really needs more work to actually address his issues now, although the gameplay update addressed some of his problems.

AcidTheWarlockNov 25, 20161 votes

BORK got buffs though.

Yeet.

BORK is core when I play Shen.

MelledoneusNov 25, 20161 votes

BoRK is borderline wasteful on Shen unless you're going for a Bloodrazor build, which is awful on him at the moment (trust me, I've tried.) If Shen's base attack speed was higher then Bloodrazor would be an awesome build on him.

AcidTheWarlockNov 25, 20161 votes

Wit's End works well on Shen, considering my build is usually Wit's End, Titanic, Sunfire, BORK, Boots, and a situational, maybe Spirit Visage or Randuin's.

DragonSheaNov 25, 20161 votes

I understand that you shave off some HP for a shield but for fucks sakes. you can't justify making them squishy, at worst make their baseline durability above average. not frail like an old lady.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 24, 201611 votes

Can we bump up Garen while we're at it? He's in no way in as bad a spot as Morde, but he loses way too many matchups and has to play passive.

Pretty much every other Juggernaut brings more damage to the table than he does except if he's facing the VIllain, and kiting hurts him as much as Morde without Rylias because he has such short range.

WyrmbladeNov 24, 20164 votes

There's actually a buff for him on PBE right now.

4th3t0sNov 24, 20161 votes

He could still afford to have his q movespeed nerf reverted

MuddafragotNov 24, 20161 votes

Because Juggernauts are about movement speed, right? item 3044 doesn't exist, right?

4th3t0sNov 25, 20161 votes

I'm probably one of the few that actually misses the old phage proc, rather than the consistent ms boost from aa'ing.

ChaosThiefNov 25, 20161 votes

I don't miss it that much, since it was an RNG reliant slow which would either feel useless, or make your enemy feel useless. Sure a possible slow is nice, but bonus movement speed to you is probably more reliable...

4th3t0sNov 25, 20161 votes

"Reliable" doesn't always mean "better". You don't balance mobility creep by putting mobility everywhere else. As much as I hate the problem rylais has caused, I can't pretend that I didn't see it coming.

Edit: on a side note, concerning "reliability" uhm......crit?

ChaosThiefNov 25, 20162 votes

Reliable is preferred over luck, if possible. Mobility creep is a result of items such as rylai and frozen mallet existing; mobility that ignores slows so that you aren't trapped by a single enemy. The same applies to crit chance; it's a menace when the opponents scores a "skillful" 10% crit, and people would rather have 100% crit chance if possible. There was a time where that would be the entire build; critical hit chance and damage.

Small movement speed boosts, or a slow that sometimes happens? I think the movement speed boost is more preferred, since you feel like you can do something instead of lugging around like a snail.

MordepoolNov 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Because Juggernauts are about movement speed, right? doesn't exist, right?

Need decent atk speed for that to work well. Morde doesn't have that

GayFluffyUnicornNov 25, 20162 votes

And in no world there are AS runes and masteries u could use?

SeiferothNov 24, 20165 votes

I don't want Garen to come back.. That Villain mechanic makes no sense. "Oh you're doing well so if Garen ever gets to you, you die for free shutdown." XD

4th3t0sNov 25, 20161 votes

for a lot of people that still play Garen, myself included, we hate the villain mechanic and would love it to go if he could get some of his previous nerfs reverted for it.

SeiferothNov 25, 20162 votes

Oh, I don't mind. I don't mind a stronger lane Garen that scales by shredding armor with that PBE mechanic, I say revert nerfs, ADD that armor shred on the PBE, remove villain, boom. Have your old stats... Current Garen isn't even overbearing - just annoying, it's just I've had games where all of Garen's kills are because of the Villain mechanic... I'm like Ok There was totally a choice by that Garen to kill those people.. Riot's calculations didn't basically just tell him "Hey you Garen! Focus that guy and kill him or you're useless..."

So I think the villain mechanic makes for crappy feels for both Garen and the people fighting Garen.

4th3t0sNov 25, 20162 votes

Yeah, the villain mechanic just made him too gimmicky and killed a lot of his early game pressure. And pigeonholes his lategame into more of an assassin rather than a fighter.

DeathBurstNov 25, 20161 votes

Or you still build him as a tanky Fighter and you use the base damage of the Villain passive? Building Garen like an Assassin is just stupid.

I can agree with the gimmicky part, but saying it pigeonholes him as an Assassin? That's ridiculous. As for the early game pressure, it didn't lost it for the Villain passive but for the scaling E ticks with levels.

4th3t0sNov 25, 20161 votes

What I mean is lategame if the adc or midlaner end up being the villain, just having item 3071 can kill them within the duration of his silence; not actually building him like an assassin..

DeathBurstNov 25, 20161 votes

Well, but then you can still behave as a Fighter versus everyone else who's not the Villain, if you actually built as a Fighter... Or even better yet, you snipe the ADC, and then you shred the Tank after the Villain passive has bounced on him.

4th3t0sNov 26, 20161 votes

Except his lategame is atrociously bad for a fighter compared to others, and I think too much of his power budget was shifted into the villain gimmick; so just get rid of it if it means reverting his juggernaut-update nerfs.

DragonSheaNov 25, 20161 votes

Now his E will scare the hell out of the enemy team as anyone that is too slow to GTFO of it will lost armor. I wouldn't want to be Rammus

DeathBurstNov 25, 20161 votes

I'm a Garen main, and I don't hate the Villain mechanic, but it's definitely NOT what attracts me to this champ either, it's just a side-part of his kit I learned to play with.

The main problem of the Villain mechanic is: what is it supposed to achieve? Help you take down the most dangerous guy in the enemy team? Well, it doesn't even do that reliably, since it's only kills (i.e. the last hit, not the overall threat) that count towards Villainy. There could be a world where you pick Garen as a counter to "protect the Kog"-comps, or against team comps with a dangerous snow-ball champ, and that could be interesting (despite all the salt of people saying "Garen punishes you for doing well"), but the current system deciding who is the Villain has no clear purpose.

DragonSheaNov 25, 20162 votes

Well that is Garens niche he is that kind of champs than stops snowballers and make comebacks.

Zane ZephyrNov 24, 20167 votes

His kit is the reason why his base stats are so shitty.

Can't have high base MS so he doesn't delete people with his Q

Can't have high base health or health regen because of his passive shield and his spells costing health to use

I just hate that shit is that way for morde because I love morde myself

I feel like Malzahar kind of got dropped into the same boat as morde did a little bit

ErockandrollNov 24, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zane Zephyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MkQmtHE3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-24T17:53:52.398+0000)

His kit is the reason why his base stats are so shitty.

Can't have high base MS so he doesn't delete people with his Q

Can't have high base health or health regen because of his passive shield and his spells scaling off of health

I just hate that shit is that way for morde because I love morde myself

I feel like Malzahar kind of got dropped into the same boat as morde did a little bit

I think part of the reason for that is because of Riot's experiment of Putting him into the bot lane. Like they had to make his stats comparable to that of the ADC, in order to not become oppressive. (Why else does he have the slowest MS for a Juggernaut?)

But even if that's the case, his ratios, don't make up for it. Considering that ADC's will scale multipively with AD, AS, and crit chance, And Mord isn't particularlly specked to be a late game carry.

Zane ZephyrNov 24, 20162 votes

Well like I said, he has low base MS so he can't hawk people and delete them with his Q because of how much damage it is and he was balanced around rylais

The only way for him to not be broken is by gimping his base stats due to the nature of his kit.

HellpyreNov 25, 20161 votes

I'm pretty sure he was balanced around his release Q, and when that got changed immediately he never got real compensation for it.

DragonSheaNov 25, 20162 votes

Or his passive. I think that riot needs to realise that he is a juggernaut. he needs some baseline durability apart from his shield.

HellpyreNov 26, 20161 votes

The thing is, IIRC Riot considers him to be an ADC currently. I don't know why they've tried to manage him there, since he was OP for a little bit, and when he got the first round of nerfs he went to unplayable in that role, but it is what it is.

ZephyrDrakeNov 24, 20166 votes

well Morde's tankyness is supposed to come from his passive, which is why whenever they have tried to make him more durable is by changing his passive around. He really isn't ever going to get high bases as long as he has his passive since that would make him too obnoxious to deal with. He might be able to receive some amount of buff to his base stats but i doubt they'll ever be more than some very minor buffs