Probably an unpopular opinion but i think all high skill champions should be around 48% WR

Malix Farwin·Jul 10, 2018·37 votes·12,110 views

This is where Zed for example used to sit at for while where he wasn't considered a problem for example.

62 Comments

saltranJul 10, 201829 votes

Probably an unpopular opinion

Then says a popular opinion, never fails.

Edge of DaybreakJul 10, 201812 votes

{quoted}

Then says a popular opinion, never fails.

Unpopular opinion damage is too high

ZackTheWaffleManJul 10, 201814 votes

Unpopular opinion: League of Legends is a game

Velzard of KozJul 10, 20183 votes

We live in society

saltranJul 10, 20181 votes

https://old.reddit.com/r/GamersRiseUp/

ChargeItDownMidJul 10, 20187 votes

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SithesisLordJul 10, 201812 votes

The Zed mains subreddit is probably the most delusional one i´ve ever seen.

They actually think he's still weak.

HexshotJul 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

The Zed mains subreddit is probably the most delusional one i´ve ever seen.

They actually think he's still weak.

I Agree, he's not weak at all against those who don't know that there's a stat in the game called "Armor" but I guess this is what most of the boards have become.

bbQsauçeJul 10, 20182 votes

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DracocrashJul 10, 20185 votes

You make it sound like buying one seekers armguard makes you invincible to zed. (Hint : it doesn't)

bbQsauçeJul 10, 20181 votes

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Sp33d Zer0Jul 11, 20181 votes

The important thing is that zed doesn't have to just all in. W+Q can our range Xeraths, albeit with a long cd, and a lot of his matchup can get within his w+E range.

If you're concerned with killing them outright zed has really good wave clear with w and can just walk somewhere else. Not everyone on the enemy team can build seekers and take anti zed runes. Catch the jungler, roam bot, go top, force the enemy mid to have to try to follow and pounce from fog- you have good options as zed.

I'm a strong supporter of the "take shit into your match up that lets you win route, but all it does is stop him from killing YOU

THE RlVER KlNGJul 11, 20185 votes

"zed isn't good against people that are forced to go out of their way to buy a specific item and take specific runes and hug their turret and never roam and respect his levels 1-18'

assassin mains are the literal worst

bbQsauçeJul 11, 20183 votes

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ChaosThiefJul 11, 20181 votes

It's a two way street. Mages have to build defensive, weakening how long they can stay in lane in return for maybe surviving against their opponent; the assassins have to build defensive because otherwise they get nuked before they have a chance to respond.

There should be an option to opt into building lost chapter as mages, but in return make it harder to survive; not "hope I don't get ulted by my enemy" hard, but if they take a basic rotation and then get ulted on, they still should die. Assassins should also have the same experience; they have to be killed by taking two full rotations without a defensive item, not one.

The example you used also seems rather flawed; it's more likely that the cooldown will be 19.8 seconds; a 10% CDR purchase. potentially as low as 15.4 seconds; 30% CDR (black cleaver + lethality item.) Not to mention that the shadow lasts a full 5 seconds, rendering the effective cooldown as 17 seconds minimum, 10.4 seconds with potentially 30% CDR, as Zed can swap with the shadow, potentially leading to an all in kill combined with his ultimate.

Calling others entitled is not going to lead to a constructive conversation, and neither is things such as "He's only good in low elo and against clueless people."

You want Zed to be improved? That's perfectly fine; but Zed's problem isn't raw numbers. His problem is that his kit does too little. His passive is bonus damage on half health targets, his Q is damage in a line, his W is fine as it is, his E is damage in area, his ult... it probably should be changed in some way, but in what way, I'm not exactly sure. His kit does too little to allow for his numbers to be good, since all it is is damage. No CC other than a slow, and some mobility through W/ult shadows. Give him something new to work with, like his spells now all shred his target's armor to replace his current passive, or give him a new mechanic or two to work with that both sides have to keep in mind, besides range and effective health.

bbQsauçeJul 12, 20181 votes

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ChaosThiefJul 12, 20181 votes

It's the same for everyone, if you are against an aggressive champion like any assassin, you build defensive to survive, it's nothing new. Unfortunately the game is terrible right now in that regard. In previous seasons you would be able to survive lane against an assassin off pure skill and/or a defensive summoner. Right now you get so much free damage with Electrocute + Ignite that if they have no defense at all they're a free kill.

That's unfortunately the main issue. It's mostly just stat-checks with the damage you have and "kill them if they don't get defense, just AFK farm if they do." That's boring for both the assassin and the one playing against the assassin if neither of you can really interact with the other because you bought a defense item. Hell, you even mention yourself the outstatting stuff:

That's what i've been saying since forever, this game isn't about who's better anymore, it's just out-stating the opponent.

The opponent doesn't have resolve and didn't buy any armor? Free kill. The opponent has resolve and bought armor? I guess i'll just sit under tower for the rest of the laning phase because my kill pressure is almost 0.

This is boring for both sides, but we both acknowledge it exists, so I'll leave it at that.

You're not gonna get a warhammer until at least second back, so for the majority of the laning phase you effectively have 0% CDR. The shadow lasts 5 seconds but the opponent can just walk around it. If you take the shadow, you HAVE to go all-in, otherwise you're gonna find yourself in his minion wave without any ability to trade with against long range mages that can just kite you.

To the warhammer part, I was mostly referring to when the assassin backs for the first full item, being youmuu/duskblade/black cleaver or whatever they opt for, assuming it had a bit of CDR. To the rest, that's a fair statement that I kind of missed. Walking around the shadow can sometimes lead to Zed throwing a shuriken in your general direction, but that's avoidable and very much a waste of Zed's time if he doesn't hit anything else with it (either kill a minion or drop the minion wave's health low enough to farm easily.)

I get emotional over these things because the game used to be more balanced, but since Runes Reforged it has been a mess.

That's fine, we're all human in the end. I was at first excited about the runes reforged update, and I was honestly hoping that champions would get no compensation to base stats so they could start working from the ground up again, but that's not exactly what happened.

His kit is fine and worked throughout every season i played. He's an assassin that does only damage, so if you aren't ahead you are useless. That's how it worked, at least for S6 and S7. I like his kit, i don't think he needs any direct change or buff whatsoever, except his ult stealing passive. It used to be on his W which gave you around 80 AD in the late game once maxed, now you're lucky if you get 50. If you're lucky and you're against a jhin you get 120, if you're against an Ezreal you get pityful amounts of it. It's too volatile and random. It doesn't depend on the player skill but it's based on which champion is in the game. That's the only thing i reall don't like about his kit.

My opinion on Zed is that because his kit is only damage, you really can't do much against it, and the only thing you can do with it is hope you don't fall behind, for whatever reason, which is unforgiving for both sides. To players who want to learn how to play Zed, often times they might be matched against someone who has fought experienced Zeds, in which case that new player is out of luck. If you're a seasoned Zed player, it'll likely be a boring lane for both sides. To an enemy who isn't great at dealing with Zed, they become fodder that just feeds Zed gold.

As to the ultimate stealing AD, I think that was intended to be a nerf to Zed since at times you would shut him down early game only for him to come back late game because he has the raw AD to kill you now. I'm not exactly sure on the reasoning but it's likely here to stay, even if it isn't the best mechanic.

Right now the game is so unbalanced, that even if you are ahead and you are against a resolve champion that bought armor, you're most likely not gonna win 1v1 anyways. While if you're against a champion that took no armor, the free damage you get from Electrocute and Ignite is so high that it's really hard to not kill the opponent. This disparity is what i'd like to be addressed.

Damage in general does feel like it's over the top, not just for assassins. Tanks are relying on base stats alone to kill someone in around two rotations, when before that kind of damage required a lead or additional damage from an item (repeated sunfire ticks, titanic hydra, etc.)

There should be a way to build anti armor, but sacrifice other things to get this power (for example, building anti tank makes you terrible at farming, since it doesn't give nearly as high raw AD.)

The root of the problem is weak lethality. Lethality is in fact in the weakest state ever early game, while being overpowered in the late game at 3+ items because of .

There's a lack of 20 lethality from runes compared to last season.

I just want the game to be balanced, if they nerf all the free damage in the game like Electrocute, Ignite, Duskblade and buff early game lethality, the game would be skill based again. If you miss your abilities you do no damage like it's supposed to be. Right now you don't even need a brain literally you can take 40% HP off someone just off Electrocute + Ignite with 0 skill required nor counterplay available.

In my opinion, they should push away from lethality and build it into kits. Assassins have natural ways of breaking low amounts of armor, therefore being a threat if you don't build armor, and assassins can build high AD items to either further emphasize this low armor pen, or build things like LW if they try to stack armor.

To use an example for Zed, let's say they gave him a gameplay update; his passive is changed to where every time he deals physical damage, he reduces the opponents armor by a flat... 3 + 10% bonus AD, up to 4 times (just bear with the numbers, I know they won't be perfect, it's just for the idea.)

So a Zed that builds an item like Death's Dance would be able to break up to 44 armor, assuming they hit you 4 times with physical damage.

To further emphasize this, Zed's Q and E now deal less damage initially, but run on a charge system; let's say the Q has 2 charges until max rank, then gets 3, and his E has two charges. Individually, they would deal less damage than the current Q/E, but hit multiple charges and they would outdamage the current Zed. They would have slightly lower cooldowns for each charge, but charge generation is slower than the current cooldowns.

...TL:DR; passive > flat armor reduction, Q/E can be cast more than once because charges, less damage individually, more damage together, more chance to avoid Zed's damage but more potential to have longer fights. That's the general idea that's being aimed for here.

This video shows exactly what i'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U4HnwZkgD4

There's a quote from him that summarizes it:

"This is what it's terrible with this game, now i don't even need effort to kill Graves, but earlier it was impossible because he had armor. Like, make your game balanced, stop making lethality terrible and then super broken when you have a lot of it. Just make it fair."

For reference, I started this post, then watched the video (at 1.25x to make it a bit easier on my end, but probably worth mentioning anyway.) Minor complaints: Galio wasn't a tank, he was building pretty much full damage with aftershock/resolve. A bit tanky, sure, because of zhonya and protobelt, but nowhere near being a tank. The main problem with tank champions is that they're given high base damage with crowd control that used to cost an immense amount of the damage they would deal. Since Galio is a "tank" champion, they give him large amounts of base damage, making his base kit enough to fight off assassins damage wise, so he just needs a bit more defense to push it to the point that he wins.

Which is stupid on both ends, really. Either CC or damage, never really both at high levels. It would be one thing if his cooldowns were so long that he could only do all of it once, or if it all was incredibly unreliable (think Sion's Q unreliable; large windup, you usually see it coming, you can interrupt him.)

Building full tank feels unrewarding pretty much at all times; you have to get all offensively oriented tank items (sunfire, abyssal mask if your champion supports it, etc) or build damage items anyway (black cleaver, titanic hydra, trinity force, etc). With the current direction of the game it feels like they're leaning towards true tanks as being boring for both sides, which is really a shame since they're probably the least frustrating to deal with past a certain point in the game (yes they're hard to kill, but they wouldn't hurt by themselves, just hold you in place.)

So yes, lethality is probably bad, but it's mostly because you have to build armor to counter it or die. Zed being able to do nothing unless he's ahead sounds like the reason they reworked a few champions, actually (Rengar as an example; they reworked him because either he split push all game and wasn't punishable, or he would relentlessly murder your carry without any way of stopping him.) I'm in no position to really say that though; I haven't played very many Zed games and I don't even own him.

If anything it would be nice if they would push away from the notion that base stats with the same build on every champion is all that really matters. It really makes it frustrating for both sides of the coin, the player and the enemy.

Sorry for the long posts, by the way.

CodeNightFallJul 11, 20184 votes

As someone who has hit Diamond on multiple accounts , you will see Zed perma banned 90% of the time. And the game that he isnt banned. some player most likely with a name along the lines of 'NeRfZeD101' will one shot your midlane at lvl 5, and then one shot both your botlaners at lvl 7. He is broken, most likely due to ignite + electrocute + ult + AA, killing anything even if he misses every single shuriken.

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He is broken, most likely due to ignite + electrocute + ult + AA, killing anything even if he misses every single shuriken.

But you can't proc electrocute without landing a Q [sg-lux-2]

Emo TwinkJul 11, 20181 votes

ult ignite auto should be enough, his e already on top of the target too will ensure that so...

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 12, 20181 votes

Ignite doesnt count towards Electrocute though [sg-lux-2]

Emo TwinkJul 12, 20181 votes

yea it does lad

AyzevJul 11, 20182 votes

{quoted}

He's only good in low elo and against clueless people. Ask anyone above diamond and he will tell you how mediocre that champion is right now.

Why would we take anecdotal evidence when we have statistics? https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/zed/diamond

And the story those tell is different from what you're telling us.

But what can we expect from someone with almost 6 times the amount of Zed games as their second most played ranked champion?

bbQsauçeJul 11, 20181 votes

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AyzevJul 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ah, winrates.

Also pick rates, ban rates and learning curves.

Better look at winrates instead of facts

So win rates are subjective now?

and opinions

But these are objective?

Dopa literally said that if you pick Zed right now you are trolling.

He didn't just say that about Zed. He called pretty much every mid trash except for Irelia, TF, Zoe, Talon, Taliyah and LeBlanc. Mids in general struggle at his level, not just specifically Zed.

they want a fair game where the champion success isn't so dependant on the opponent not knowing what resolve and armor are.

Let's take your match history as an example:

10/3 and almost tied for second highest damage dealt in a match where 4 opponents built armor and 4 took Resolve. 9/4 with highest damage dealt against 2 opponents with armor and 1 Resolve. 13/3, second highest damage dealt, facing 4 people with armor and 2 with Resolve. 8/7, highest, facing no armor at all and 2 people with Resolve. 12/7, highest, facing 3 people with armor and 3 with Resolve. 22/10, second highest, facing 5 people with armor and 2 with Resolve.

I could keep listing, but I just don't see a correlation emerging between how well you do and how much armor and Resolve the enemy team has.

A fair game where Zed is equally effective in low elo as he is in high elo.

For as long as assassins will be all about killing, they will remain better in low elo than in high elo. It has never not been that way, even if the difference may be greater now than in the past.

SugeMinPikkJul 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He's only good in low elo and against clueless people.

Hey uhhhh do you watch Today On The Korean server? If not, just skip to the end of some of their vids. They show top 5 ban rates, pick rates, etc. stats for Korean challenger. Zed is always on the ban rate list. He's like Riven. Or Camille. He gets better with rank.

Jaygo41Jul 10, 20181 votes

Yeah except when you cite that champions like Yasuo and Zoe win too many games, the mains come crawling out of the woodwork. This isn't as unpopular as you think when you start actually naming champions

Arcane Blue BoiJul 10, 201816 votes

Unpopular opinion Zed is not hard. A champion like kalista or aurelion is. The only thing you need to do as Zed is hit your Q. Thats it. the other stuff is granted. Sure, you can watch a zed montage and dnt know how to do half of the stuff in it. But you dont need those plays in order to play zed. Those plays are just extras.

Zed geniusJul 10, 20184 votes

Not really, combos and mechanics are not always what makes a champion "hard". Maybe Zed used to be this kind of hard when he got released cause people were used to annie and stuff, but what you need to do on zed right now, which is not int lane and get through it, or know how to play lategame is more of what makes him hard. His mechanics are simple for today's league champions.

CrestfallenNightJul 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Unpopular opinion Zed is not hard. A champion like kalista or aurelion is. The only thing you need to do as Zed is hit your Q. Thats it. the other stuff is granted. Sure, you can watch a zed montage and dnt know how to do half of the stuff in it. But you dont need those plays in order to play zed. Those plays are just extras.

So much this. Id login daily to upvote you.

Wild GeeseJul 10, 201810 votes

Unpopular opinion but Zed isn't hard.

charge attackJul 10, 20188 votes

Zed is high skill/low skill depending on whatever fits the boards narrative lol.

The fact that Boards talks way more about Zed than Talon (who objectively has less counterplay and is more broken) just shows that they know fuck all about the game.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 10, 20186 votes

they just do it because talon is rarely seen same goes for fizz If i didnt perma ban zed he would be in nearly every game

PoskeJul 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=charge attack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZznAiAv,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-10T16:20:18.203+0000)

Zed is high skill/low skill depending on whatever fits the boards narrative lol.

The fact that Boards talks way more about Zed than Talon (who objectively has less counterplay and is more broken) just shows that they know fuck all about the game.

This is mainly because zed is more popular

Emo TwinkJul 11, 20181 votes

More popular and in almost every single game you dont ban him, and also if u cc a talon jumping on you, you have more chance of surviving than a zed jumping on you because even if he's CCed he still would've hit with multiple abilities. Sure, talon has better roaming and wave clear than a Zed, hes more telegraphed than a Zed.

AyzevJul 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=charge attack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZznAiAv,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-10T16:20:18.203+0000)

Zed is high skill/low skill depending on whatever fits the boards narrative

He's just simply both at the same time. He's easy in the sense that his skill floor is low, but he's hard in the sense that his skill ceiling is high. It doesn't take much to play him optimally, but it does take a lot to play him perfectly.

Weiss GuertenaJul 11, 20187 votes

Popularity should also be factored in the equation.

High skillcap + low popularity + high winrate is fine, as it means the small but experienced playerbase is making the most of their champion. High skillcap + high popularity + high winrate on the other hand means that the champion is either much easier than percieved or overtuned enough so inexperienced players can win constantly even with all the mistakes they will inevitably make. I'm looking at you there, Zed.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 10, 20184 votes

Depends. A high-skill champion who also has a high playrate should be sub-50. One that's got a lower playrate should consistently see about 52%.

"Low-skill" champions should remain roughly a 50% winrate regardless of the number of games on them, the only variation being slight, as you get used to specific interactions and how to play each situation.

Ayame IsakiJul 10, 20182 votes

I was going to comment exactly this; if a high skill champion is only played by its mains, then I expect a relatively high WR.

Automated RivenJul 11, 20181 votes

I disagree. High skill should not be higher then average power when mastered. If a champion is too strong, it should be nerfed regardless of whether it's only too strong on her mains or not.

Ayame IsakiJul 11, 20182 votes

There needs to be an incentive to play mechanically intensive champs (read: high risk, high reward); otherwise everyone would just play Garen, Yi, and Annie and call it day if all champs were equal at the peak of their skill (i.e. when played by their mains).

Mokiller5Jul 10, 20183 votes

By that logic it must also mean all low skill champs MasterYi Fizz should have 52%+ winrate. So tell me do you really want that?... really? Myself as a yi main defeintly, but do you?

jocomotionJul 10, 20181 votes

In Low silver to bronze yes. High silver to gold maybe. Plat + definitely not.

AyzevJul 11, 20181 votes

You're not taking into account that not only the person playing the high skill champion gets better as you go up in ranks, but also their opponents.

jocomotionJul 11, 20181 votes

Well I was more aiming at the fact that as you get higher elo, the difficult champion goes from being too difficult to play well to better than the average champion, even in high elo.