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"I was surprised by the amount of negative discussion around the mana changes personally" -Penguin

Malix Farwin··178 votes·24,299 views

Wanna know why mages are pissed about the mana changes and why Mages only afk farm the lane?

The answer is quite simple really, BECAUSE THATS ALL WE CAN DO IN THIS META.

If we try anything that resembles fighting our laner the jungler will just pop out and gank us. Their fast and healthy clears allow them to apply a lot more pressure in lanes then any other seasons.

We feel like secondary support rather than a carry because bot lane has much more influence and its better to just farm up and help support them instead of trying to be a Mid lane Carry.

Our damage is less, the enemy has more options to counter build us, more reliant on mana, and do less to objectives.

With that being said the mana changes are not bad in itself. What is bad is that you are not addressing Botlane and Junglers first but instead Mages when it should be "Fix botlane's power and Jungle pressure, then nerf mages mana" That's what everyone is pissed about. Nerfing Mana is not gonna suddenly cause assassins to be used more in competitive play, they still do not have the utility mages do to support bot lane, the only carries.

Edit: The reason why the mana band changes were more accepting is because ADCs were abusing them too, get the pattern?

Fixed the grammar a bit, the forums were doing something funky with it.

149 Comments

Dope Solo61 votes

Let me fix that for you

"I'm surprised by the amount of negative discussion around mana changes but altogether unmoved, if we cared about your play experience we would have asked for it before making them". - Some overpaid rioter.

Scary Door18 votes

{quoted}

Let me fix that for you

"I'm surprised by the amount of negative discussion around mana changes but altogether unmoved, if we cared about your play experience we would have asked for it before making them". - Some overpaid rioter.

Pretty much this.

Xonra10 votes

Riot with literally every change they make these days.

OP Garen Support32 votes

Well said. Too bad Riot balance team lacks logic or they simply don't give a shit. Mindset is that pro play > the actual game. They think financially its better to support pro play. We can punish that thinking by not purchasing RP. Pro play will kill the game if nothing changes.

Dasdi966 votes

[{quoted}](name=OP Garen Support,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-19T11:22:37.363+0000)

Well said. Too bad Riot balance team lacks logic or they simply don't give a shit. Mindset is that pro play > the actual game. They think financially its better to support pro play. We can punish that thinking by not purchasing RP. Pro play will kill the game if nothing changes.

We can also do that by not watching any LCS or any riot sponsored league tournament. If they see the viewer numbers go down, they have to invest in something else.

AMYS GRAVE13 votes

"Oh no we are losing viewers, we need to focus on pro play more to bring back the viewership!"

Stand Alone Wolf32 votes

item 2004 I'm just going to leave this here...

nelogis22 votes

ah yes... why did we remove those again?

The good'ol days of: When backed, get 2 HP-pots, a mana pot and a green ward.

FurriesAreHot10 votes

Because people spent more time clearing the wave AND poking the shit out of their enemy rather than managing the state of the wave and their health and mana pools.

10001101110110113 votes

So instead they run teleport :P

Enderspider6 votes

reeee need money for wards "Blitzcrank is legendary" adc: 0/1/21321412421

Malix Farwin31 votes

I do not understand why they think this will increase diversity i mean Assassins still lack the utility mages have which is more valuable in this meta. I main as a mage i would love to care about my mana because then that would mean my abilities have a meaningful enough impact on games to where i can actually carry through them but nope i spam them to get some poke dmg to help the adc secure the kills and i use my stuns/slows to peel for the ADC.

Sasogwa8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-19T10:30:22.177+0000)

I do not understand why they think this will increase diversity i mean Assassins still lack the utility mages have which is more valuable in this meta. I man as a mage i would love to care about my mana because then that would mean my abilities have a meaningful enough impact on games to where i can actually carry through them but nope i spam them to get some poke dmg to help the adc secure the kills and i use my stuns/slows to peel for the ADC.

Well funnily enough assassins should be good cause their niche is assassinating ADC. And they assassinate quite well. Just not ADC's cause those melt you on sight and are easily protected by their overpowered best friend.

Enderspider6 votes

an adc's whole idea is that they lack one on one potential in trade for having range and kiting capabilities. A few weeks ago, I was playing jarvan top and I just hit lvl 6 so I decided to teleport in bot lane at full hp. the moment I arrive, the enemy 0/0/0 level 5 tristana jumps onto me, doesn't kite at all, is out of range of her support yet still easily kills me without even using any summoners. I can understand that jarvan isn't necessarily the strongest top lane at the moment but that moment felt a bit ridiculous but it was kind of a good example of the current state of adcs.

HarrowR7 votes

I guess that's an example of how bad you are,cause no way a lvl 5 Tristana kills a level 6 Jarvan without you missing your whole combo except R,and even then by lvl 6 you should at least have a part of Phage built,and have at least 400 HP more than her just cause of your scaling and one ruby crystal

Shiznyte1 votes

Trist can be pretty slippery with her jump, jump reset, and ult. I know she didn't have an ult for this situation but shes pretty damn hard to catch and very strong

HarrowR2 votes

Dude,i went into a game to try out Jarvan just to make sure im not speaking out of my ass like most of the people on the boards,safe to say i'm right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiR7IK0lrn8&feature=youtu.be

And forgive me for those water marks,i literally downloaded first free software i could so its kinda shit but you get my point,also Trist was bad to jump into my melee range TWICE,but i still killed them 2v1,first clip i was ahead of tristana by 1 kill i think,you don't even wanna know how the rest of the game turned out for her,i managed to kill her with just R and 1 auto,so i think its safe to say she has nothing on Jarvan

SnyperWulff20 votes

Yeah, but we all are just crying I guess. Meh, whatever, I'll just have to adapt.

Spacesuit Spiff13 votes

I could go for some resource management gameplay, that stuffs interesting, but league in its current state is NOT equipped to handle that on just one class.

MetalGearTeemo3 votes

Hey, if league players were interested in managing mana, open metas that aren't enforced, and actual teamplay being required...

they'd be playing Dota. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ForeverLaxx2 votes

{quoted}

Hey, if league players were interested in managing mana, open metas that aren't enforced, and actual teamplay being required...

they'd be playing Dota. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

It took 7 pages for someone to finally say it, and I'm glad it wasn't me this time.

JustaNewb12 votes

If they are surprised, maybe they should actually pay attention? I dont even like to play mages and I saw this coming as soon as I glanced at the notes.

Xonra11 votes

Problem with just about everything in the game balance wise right now is the fact that Riot thinks they "know best" about literally everything, and they show us time after time and meta after meta that they very clearly don't.

They eventually see the problem after it being literally and figuratively yelled at them, but then they have no clue how to fix the problem and fix...something, that just ends up creating a completely different problem while not even addressing the initial problem. I'm not on the "balance team are morons" train, but it is clear there is a massive disconnect between what they see and what is actually there and it is confusing at times what they are looking at.

It is like a window won't open so they break it with a hammer then go "I'm not sure why people are reacting so negatively to our solution".

Scary Door9 votes

"I was surprised by the amount of negative discussion around the mana changes personally" -Penguin

Pretty much proof that Riot only reads Reddit and/or things they want to hear and overwhelmingly ignores the vast majority of the vocal community.

With that being said the mana changes are not bad in itself. What is bad is that you are not addressing Botlane and Junglers first but instead Mages when it should be "Fix botlane's power and Jungle pressure, then nerf mages mana" That's what everyone is pissed about. Nerfing Mana is not gonna suddenly cause assassins to be used more in competitive play, they still do not have the utility mages do to support bot lane, the only carries.

It might not be so bad if ADCs had a resource that they had to manage or some aspect of the game that involved micro-management, but they don't---aside from last hitting (which every laner has to do). Basically ranged ADCs have an inherent advantage to begin with and then when you nerf mages, you are (by default) buffing every other class, including ADCs.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Indeed, but guess what? Literally the patch after this one, they're going to nerf ADCs. We know this. So it's fine.

Scary Door3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2018-04-19T16:06:40.102+0000)

Indeed, but guess what? Literally the patch after this one, they're going to nerf ADCs. We know this. So it's fine.

Unless ADCs are given a resource that they have to spend or are nerfed to the point of unviability, I'm sure it won't compare to the nerfs to mages.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

IE is being massively reworked to make sure that ADCs lose their crit burst, particularly against squishier champions. So yes, it's a huge nerf that won't compare to mages having to spend their mana more wisely.

AquariusGine8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-19T10:16:15.170+0000)

With that being said the mana changes are not bad in itself. What is bad is that you are not addressing Botlane and Junglers first but instead Mages when it should be "Fix botlane's power and Jungle pressure, then nerf mages mana". That's what everyone is pissed about. Nerfing Mana is not gonna suddenly cause assassins to be used more in competitive play, they still do not have the utility mages do to support bot lane, the only carries.

Edit: The reason why the mana band changes were more accepting is because ADCs were abusing them too, get the pattern?

THIS

Prometheus5968 votes

{quoted}

THIS

the only reason that junglers have so much pressure is because it takes so fucking long for their camps to respawn, and its something that bugs jungers as well.

Nausicäa 7 votes

Saying he was surprised is straight up fucking insulting. Shows how utterly out of touch and incompetent the people in charge are. Game has been in a shit state for a year or fucking longer and there has been no fucking changes fixing shit, only a stupid fucking rune rework that only exacerbated the problems with this game.

FurriesAreHot6 votes

Penguin had a different view on the changes than the majority of the loud mob that is the boards. He is human. The majority surprised him, is something wrong with having a different idea?

Scary Door11 votes

{quoted}

Penguin had a different view on the changes than the majority of the loud mob that is the boards. He is human. The majority surprised him, is something wrong with having a different idea?

If he was honestly surprised by the reaction, then it shows just how tone deaf Riot really is to the community.

Avios16 votes

Like, I'd be fine if they were doing the same to the rest of the champion pool, but they aren't.

That and they stated that this was because of pro play, which is not us 100 hand-picked players who happen to be gods at the game.

Wild Geese6 votes

Yes giving the Champions who use mana for everything the lowest mana in the game, what could possibly go wrong??

If they wanted to nerf wave clear, then nerf wave clear!! Look at the specific spells that clear waves. Less mana is less item diversity, less rune diversity, and less fun in general for a whole lot of players.

Gabresol5 votes

I think they reduce waveclear, so midlaners can effectivly roam without loosing their turret. Especially assassins have a problem with that. Zed (for example) cannot push out lane and roam, because most mages push out the wave on 10 secounds and take at lease 1/4 of the turret before Zed manages to get back into lane.

And that does not change for the mage vs mage match up.

I have experienced the following scenario not long ago. The enemy midlaner and jungler go for a 4v2 on bot and they manage to kill the enemy bot eventually. However. In the mean time the other midlaner had the help of their jungler and took the mid turret no problem.

remakoro19 votes

Sooooooo? Turrets aint going anywhere. Ofc you can kill it easily with 2 people if no one defending it.

Zed (for example) cannot push out lane and roam

What? With every basic skill on his kit being low cd, costing only energy and dealing dmg in aoe he CANT? Then who the fuck can? There are tons of mages with comparable or less amount of tools for waveclear and people still bitch about them being good at that. You kinda lost me there.

130x5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-19T10:16:15.170+0000)

Wanna know why mages are pissed about the mana changes and why Mages only afk farm the lane?

The answer is quite simple really, BECAUSE THATS ALL WE CAN DO IN THIS META.

If we try anything that resembles fighting our laner the jungler will just pop out and gank us. Their fast and healthy clears allow them to apply a lot more pressure in lanes then any other seasons.

We feel like secondary support rather than a carry because bot lane has much more influence and its better to just farm up and help support them instead of trying to be a Mid lane Carry.

Our damage is less, the enemy has more options to counter build us, more reliant on mana, and do less to objectives.

With that being said the mana changes are not bad in itself. What is bad is that you are not addressing Botlane and Junglers first but instead Mages when it should be "Fix botlane's power and Jungle pressure, then nerf mages mana". That's what everyone is pissed about. Nerfing Mana is not gonna suddenly cause assassins to be used more in competitive play, they still do not have the utility mages do to support bot lane, the only carries.

Edit: The reason why the mana band changes were more accepting is because ADCs were abusing them too, get the pattern?

You are 100% not making any sense. Mage mid is currently the best carry. Jg clears are slow, mid hit 6 before jg, you all have cc, one landed combo is death, they gave mages the ability to take down towers, etc... etc...

Malix Farwin29 votes

{quoted}

You are 100% not making any sense. Mage mid is currently the best carry. Jg clears are slow, mid hit 6 before jg, you all have cc, one landed combo is death, they gave mages the ability to take down towers, etc... etc...

You clearly do not play this game right now you are incorrect in just about every way possible.

The strength of your bot lane easily translates into objective control, not mid.

Jungle clears are a lot easier and you are more healthy in the process. Go look at jungle guides/games from previous seasons and look at them now and play jungle. It used to me that unless you were a tank jungle doing blue and red without backing was unthinkable, now assassin junglers not only can do both but can come out the jungle ganking near/at full hp.

Assassins getting kills is irrelevant if you can CC and burst them down in teamfights, mages on the other hand have the ability to keep the ADC alive whille Assassins cannot. Much worse the ability to peel for the ADC has increased tremendously with how strong supports are now and how much more gold and items they can get early. You may look cool and strong early game getting a few kills as an assassin but then you start to see how useless you feel in teamfights where Mages have the advantage in.

warpenguin5555 votes

There's really no positive to these changes so...

Noor Sakata5 votes

The reason why assassins will never be picked in pro play is because of tanks , assassins can't do much when the enemy has 2 carries but 3 tanks protecting him , and those tanks can cc assassins easily since assassins are melee , mages can't do damage to tanks , only few of them , such as Cass , dps mages , that's why Ryze is in a complicated situation , mages are literally secondary supports for the adc .

Vanjie4 votes

Because ADC are not getting the same treatment and it feels like they are getting virtually no nerfs and tweaks done to them. I mean it is just going to put mages in a state of uselessness for patches and months because it is taking the Developers forever to work on the actual problem role . . . . ADC.

SmashinBob3 votes

Already said this in a few comments, but i find it annoying when i win the early lane mid or just have a few better trades, and then the enemy midlaner goes into shoving waves to prevent from fighting, it makes the lane really boring. So i like the mana change, it makes it so the losing midlaner cant just shove waves to prevent fighting, he should defend or actually spec into mana items if he wants to shove.

Malix Farwin13 votes

{quoted}

Already said this in a few comments, but i find it annoying when i win the early lane mid or just have a few better trades, and then the enemy midlaner goes into shoving waves to prevent from fighting, it makes the lane really boring. So i like the mana change, it makes it so the losing midlaner cant just shove waves to prevent fighting, he should defend or actually spec into mana items if he wants to shove.

They shove the lane to gank bot lane. Thats literally mid meta right now

The Yetii Rider3 votes

ADC changes are coming in patch 8.10. Changes to mages in 8.9 are in preparation for that.

If you nerf ADCs and make them less able to kill squishies, then mages become super dominant. Ensuring that mages can easily run out of mana late game helps with that, that way you don't have to actually kill a mage to remove them from the fight, they can do it themselves if they screw up and burn too much mana on missed/fishing skills.

The order is only because of the level of changes. Mages are getting changes to a few items and to their stats, so it goes in the smaller patch. ADCs are getting changes to their entire build path and structure, as well as to their core IE mechanic. So it goes in the bigger patch, which just happens to be later. It's not some conspiracy to make mage players suffer for two weeks, you know.

Malix Farwin9 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2018-04-19T15:33:25.545+0000)

ADC changes are coming in patch 8.10. Changes to mages in 8.9 are in preparation for that.

If you nerf ADCs and make them less able to kill squishies, then mages become super dominant. Ensuring that mages can easily run out of mana late game helps with that, that way you don't have to actually kill a mage to remove them from the fight, they can do it themselves if they screw up and burn too much mana on missed/fishing skills.

The order is only because of the level of changes. Mages are getting changes to a few items and to their stats, so it goes in the smaller patch. ADCs are getting changes to their entire build path and structure, as well as to their core IE mechanic. So it goes in the bigger patch, which just happens to be later. It's not some conspiracy to make mage players suffer for two weeks, you know.

Actually nerfing ADCs before Mages wouldn't make them anymore dominant because the whole reason they are so dominant is because bot lane is so strong. Nerfing mana is not going to stop mages from being used but nerfing bot lane will have a much better chance of bringing Assassins back. Assassins cannot do their jobs because bot is too strong, not because mages are too strong.

Azadethe1 votes

Can you link this post btw?

Malix Farwin4 votes

{quoted}

Can you link this post btw?

Sure

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/oYqIA0zf-pbe-chat-with-the-playtest-team-89?show=flat&comment=00150000

Man that comment kinda gets more contradictory the more i read it. why would reducing mana promote interaction. it just makes you not want to waste mana on poking completely now. nerfing mana regen is not forcing people to fight its doing the opposite.

TwitchInMyPants1 votes

Btw does anyone know where that quote even comes from

It wouldn't be the first time a quote was cherry-picked out of context, exaggerated, or repeated incorrectly if there's no source, I've skimmed over the Reddit, penguin's twitter, reverse searched the quote... Finding nothing. If a statement like that was made by a Rioter I'd like to see it

Wild Geese3 votes

{quoted}

Btw does anyone know where that quote even comes from

It wouldn't be the first time a quote was cherry-picked out of context, exaggerated, or repeated incorrectly if there's no source, I've skimmed over the Reddit, penguin's twitter, reverse searched the quote... Finding nothing. If a statement like that was made by a Rioter I'd like to see it

Red tracker, he said these words verbatim and they are not out of context.

TwitchInMyPants4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wild Geese,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=002a0000,timestamp=2018-04-19T23:15:41.991+0000)

Red tracker, he said these words verbatim and they are not out of context.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/oYqIA0zf-pbe-chat-with-the-playtest-team-89?comment=00000001

Found it, forgot they added that feature

Also "Inspiration/Resolve TF" being mentioned is a bit more appalling than a lot of that, they add a rune that enables you to be tanky early and transition into damage and they're upset when it gets popular on a champ with a weak early? And being upset with dematerializer after nerfing waveclear with those baron nerfs? It seems they're pretty out of the loop, or not thinking very hard on these changes.

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