%health true damage is not a healthy game mechanic

LVL 5 PORO·Feb 6, 2016·12 votes·1,315 views

Community: Riot this isn't a good idea and will only end badly. Please dont rework the champion with this.

Riot: Lol, fuck you guys.

Gotta love the new tank-assassin-fighter-support Fiora.

23 Comments

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 6, 20165 votes

Oh god forbid there are a whole 2 champions in the game you can't pick a tank into. Must just be a terrible mechanic.

MrwiOzV6pBFeb 6, 20162 votes

Well... it is. Late game for tanks there's literally nothing you can do against them because

You're too weak to actually kill them
You can't peel at all.

You're pretty much forced to either afk or feed and hope the rest of your team with actual killing damage can take care of vayne/fiora.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 6, 20166 votes

And this is a problem why? Your role shouldn't be 100% bullet proof vs any thing. The whole point of %hp true damage is so you can't just mindlessly tank these champions.

Honestly I think tank mains are just upset that everything that is classified as a tank doesn't come with a passive Kayle ult with 100% uptime.

MrwiOzV6pBFeb 6, 20161 votes

Last I checked there's a max to armor and magic resist cap.

You can't balance a game when you pick Braum whose kit is to shield everyone on your team and the enemy picks vayne or fiora. You literally become useless late game and a lot of times even mid game. It's on the same level as having an afk teammate only worse because he's afk and feeding the enemy even more.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

And this is a problem why? Your role shouldn't be 100% bullet proof vs any thing. The whole point of %hp true damage is so you can't just mindlessly tank these champions.

Honestly I think tank mains are just upset that everything that is classified as a tank doesn't come with a passive Kayle ult with 100% uptime.

Why should damage be completely uncounterable in any way? You don't think thats maybe a little problematic?

MrwiOzV6pBFeb 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MWq6m1B8,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2016-02-06T04:16:50.734+0000)

Why should damage be completely uncounterable in any way? You don't think thats maybe a little problematic?

Not really. It's calling having a good team comp. A good team comp of mixed damage people aren't going to be able to tank as well.

True damage is just a broken mechanic against tanks because there's literally nothing they can do late game.

Going by that logic I think we should have a couple tanks in the game that are completely immune marksman after a 3rd hit on them. That's about how logical that sounds.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 6, 20163 votes

So that you can't just mindlessly stack a resistance against it and make it irrelevant. Why should their be an 100% answer to damage no matter what.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

So that you can't just mindlessly stack a resistance against it and make it irrelevant. Why should their be an 100% answer to damage no matter what.

You can counter tanks with armor/mr pen and true damage, but when the true damage is health scaling, thats when it becomes a little excessive.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 6, 20162 votes

"You can counter tanks with armor/mr pen"

No you can't, because anytime their even half way efficient tank mains complain about them. That's why LW was nerfed. And there isn't enough consistent damage AP sources to make tanks fear mr pen.

Literally anytime there is something that will actually pose a threat to tanks, their mains com on these boards and whine about how op it is. This is just one of many examples. We get it you shouldn't ever be able to kill a tank.

VasilisGreenFeb 6, 20161 votes

The point about armor and magic pen is that it is too little, unlike armor being plenty and since the last whisper change, the difference is even greater.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 6, 20162 votes

Yeah, I can't argue with that. Having % health true damage is not a good solution though.

VasilisGreenFeb 6, 20161 votes

The thing is, on fiora, it scales with her AD and it has a pretty low scale... It's 4.5% of her bonus AD... to get to the same level as Vayne's, you need to have about 300 Bonus AD and that means going full offence and it also has conditions to be met.... Vayne on the other hand is much more unfair... What is the good thing about it is that Vayne in particular has a lot of bad matchups and late game, if your ADC is far ahead and vayne is not that ahead, you can easily kill her. Like, draven, Draven can 2hit this bitch... Lucian can obliterate her and jinx outranges her and also has higher DPS with her massive AS... %hptrue damage is bad for tanks but also tanks are not supposed to be unkillable... Look at it like Tanks in real world and Anti-material 50 cal snipers... Vayne is similar to that and fiora too...

Also, to those that argue that fiora can go too tanky and deal a lot of damage because of the true damage, there is one little detail... If she goes tanky she does the same damage as any other juggernaut or bruiser, she doesn't oneshot you but she still hurts as any other bruiser would. It's just that people are always looking for an excuse to label a champion or a machanic "Unhealthy" just because they can't deal with it and outplay it.

Shadow GilgameshFeb 6, 20165 votes

At least there was a moderate level of "outplay" potential with Vayne, she's squishy and you can do your best to predict where she's headed when invisible, if you bait or force the condemn before you use your gap closer you can still jump her.

Fiora builds off tank, has decent innate stats, has a move that counters literally everything which a competent fiora won't get baiting into using, and a dash that gets a 60% CDR if she hits literally anything. Then you toss in that she has movespeed boosts and slows and her AOE heal and the "%HP true damage is for outplaying not outbuilding" falls apart.

Pick a tank and lose from the get go, pick a better lane bully and you're good till she gets like... an item.

LVL 5 POROFeb 6, 20161 votes

Her ability to counter tanks isn't the problem. Its that she is incredibly overtuned and broken. She builds two damage items and can kill any carry instantly, while having as much HP and resistance as a tank. On top of her ridiculous damage, she has high mobility, and Riposte which is easily one the most broken abilities in the game next to Tahms devour. And if that wasn't enough, her ult gives her massive utility. She is the epitome of bad game design.

SasogwaFeb 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh god forbid there are a whole 2 champions in the game you can't pick a tank into. Must just be a terrible mechanic.

Yeah, except, you know, itemization against tanks is actually pretty great already. Tankiness should serve a purpose and anti tank items should be built. But that's not even that. The fact you would take the same amount of damage with 6 item 3031 Mundo and full tank Mundo is not logical. It's stupid, it makes no sense. Tanks can already be dealt with, and a lot of mechanics already imply %health damage, resistances ignore or shred.

item 3153 of last season was already considered very unhealthy because it actually punished tanks for building tanky, like it's not even like it's good against tanks, tanks building health are actually assisting enemy team with the lifesteal. Now %max health true damage Fiora brings the ridiculous to whole new level. Like, even Vayne has to autoattack a whole lot of times to reach a high amount. Fiora? Scales with AD lol.

Also putting it on Fiora absolutely makes no sense. Kog'maw is an immobile artillery void spitting machine supposed to melt his opponents even the beefiest. He has a bit of %health magic damage. Malzahar brings the power of the void's gravity to collapse via his W, ignoring how strong his opponent is. He has %health magic damage. Fiora is a light fencer duellist. She has %health true damage. ???

I'm sensing a little design problem here. With her current scalings, Fiora is NOT the "duellist that can fight every opponent". She's the monsterous bruisery antitank (she's far better against tanks than squishies)

BoulderoxFeb 6, 20162 votes

problem is % true damage is what is needed to balance a champion when it comes to damage to roles. Squishies take less and takes take a LOT more, but the fact is you CANNOT COUNTER it at ALL with ANY STAT is the problem. AD>armor AP>MR FLAT true damage> HP %HP true damage>0 counters

and ironically the champs with %hp true damage have innate damage to murder anything still...

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 6, 20162 votes

its definitely not healthy for the game. imo.

MrwiOzV6pBFeb 6, 20161 votes

Played a game as Mundo a couple games back against fiora and vayne. Late game I think I had like 5k hp. She like killed me in 4 hits within a couple secs before I could even ult.

weeaboomerFeb 6, 20161 votes

"4 hits" okay...

Nagoh ShanFeb 6, 20161 votes

% health true damage is fine.

It hasn't ended poorly; people just complain when something new makes them respond in a way they haven't had to before.

DrNovaFeb 6, 20161 votes

Why should tanks be umcounterable. That's why mundo is about permaban. Nothing else works.

Its a mechanic on a whole two champs that counters health stacking. These two champs are not uncounterable themselves.

Penguin EclipseFeb 6, 20161 votes

No, it's more like community: "Anything that counters tanks is bad"

%health true damage is a fine mechanic. Their implementation of it on Fiora though could use some work.

DreadlocksFeb 6, 20161 votes

Passive: Fiora identifies the Vitals of nearby enemy champions, marked as an arc around their character. Vitals take 0.5 seconds to identify and last for 15 seconds. After a Vital is triggered or times out, Fiora identifies a new Vital on her target. Basic attacks and Riposte.png Riposte against a Vital deal 3% (+ 2.8% - 4.5% (based on level)% per 100 Bonus AD) of target's maximum health bonus true damage, heal Fiora for 25 - 110 (based on level) and grant her 20 / 30 / 40 / 50% bonus movement speed that decays over 1.75 seconds.

Q: RANGE: 400 COST: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 MANA COOLDOWN: 16 / 14 / 12 / 10 / 8 ACTIVE: Fiora dashes a short distance in the target direction, then stabs a nearby enemy if one is present while moving into attack range of them. The stab deals physical damage,** applies on-hit effects**, and prioritizes exposed Duelist's Dance.png Vitals, followed by enemies who would die to the strike and finally the nearest target, prioritizing champions. PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 (+ 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 / 115% bonus AD) If Lunge hits an enemy, its cooldown is reduced by 60%.

W: RANGE: 750 COST:** 50** MANA COOLDOWN: 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 ACTIVE: Fiora poises to strike in the target direction and then enters a defensive stance,** parrying all incoming non-turret damage and hostile crowd control effects for the next 0.75 seconds.** After the duration, Fiora stabs her sword forward, dealing magic damage to enemies in a line. MAGIC DAMAGE: 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 / 250 (+ 100% AP) The first enemy champion struck also has their movement and attack speed Slow icon slowed by 50% for 1.5 seconds. If Fiora parries at least one immobilizing effect, Riposte Stun icon stuns the target for the same duration instead.

E:RANGE: 「 200 」 COST: 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 MANA COOLDOWN: 15 / 13 / 11 / 9 / 7 ACTIVE: Fiora's next two basic attacks gain bonus range and 50% bonus attack speed. The first basic attack can never Critical strike icon critically strike, but Slow icon slows its target for 1 second, while the second basic attack is guaranteed to Critical strike icon critically strike for bonus critical damage. SLOW: 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60% 「 MODIFIED CRITICAL DAMAGE: 140 / 155 / 170 / 185 / 200% 」 Bladework resets Fiora's autoattack timer.

R: Grand Challenge RANGE: 500 / 600 COST: 100 MANA COOLDOWN: 110 / 90 / 70 PASSIVE: Duelist's Dance.png Duelist's Dance's bonus movement speed is increased. ACTIVE: Fiora challenges the target enemy champion, highlighting all four of their Duelist's Dance.png Vitals for the next 8 seconds. While Grand Challenge is in effect, Duelist's Dance.png Duelist's Dance does not identify new Duelist's Dance.png Vitals on her target. The ability also creates an area around the target, in which Fiora gains Duelist's Dance.png Duelist's Dance's** bonus movement speed.** If she triggers one Duelist's Dance.png Vital before her target dies, she creates a victory zone that heals her and allied champions within over the next 2 seconds. The duration is extended by 1 second for every extra Duelist's Dance.png Vital hit, up to a maximum of 5 seconds. 「 HEAL PER SECOND: 80 / 110 / 140 (+ 60% Bonus AD) 」 If she triggers all of the Duelist's Dance.png Vitals and her target is not dead, she will still create a healing zone that lasts for 5 seconds.

Perhaps i could've just linked the wikia page, but i just want to emphasize that she literally has a little bit of everything in her kit.