Junglers Have No Keystone

The Yetii Rider··3 votes·1,569 views

Well, there was some discussion during the Runes Reforged spoiler season that maybe Grasp of the Undying would work on large monsters. That does not seem to be the case.

So, we have Grasp of the Undying, which gives you infinitely stacking health, but only works on champions.

And we have Essence Theft, which gives you infinitely stacking health, but only works on minions. Essence Theft has been reworked and now scales off monsters, slowly. This is better (still not a keystone).

We also have Fleet of Foot which...deals no damage to monsters. Right.

So, we have no PVE keystone! That's...that's awesome, Riot, thank you.

The closest thing we might have to a PVE keystone is that Fleet of Foot gives you a bit of healing if you run around like an idiot and then auto attack a camp. So...I guess it's useful for Kindred and Ezreal, if they want to keep jungling.

Looks like most junglers will just end up taking Summoner Specialist so they can swap out Smite at certain points of the game, but of course that locks you into the Inspiration rune path, so let's hope at least there are some interesting minor runes there to help junglers out.

Otherwise, I expect feast or famine assassins to take Electrocute, and we'll probably see at least a few people try to make Predator work (though I think the long cooldown on Predator means it's not likely for most junglers who want to gank often, and if it is good it will be so good that it gets nerfed immediately).

As for tank junglers...I dunno. Summoner Specialist seems...okay, I guess? You can't use Grasp and you don't have an ally partner to use Guardian usually so I suppose it's likely that they take Aftershock? Of course, Nunu doesn't have an immobilizing ability, so...he can't take Aftershock, so we'll just sit around with our thumb up our ass, I guess.

I have no idea why tank junglers are being shoved out into the cold on this health stacking game. I hope Riot plans to revert some of their nerfs to Cinderhulk to compensate for how much extra health laners get now.

37 Comments

Kaeblen10 votes

you want a must-pick keystone for junglers?

[sg-lulu] you don't understand the whole "choices" thing, do you?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

You want junglers to not have a keystone for the first 15 minutes of the game?

You don't understand the whole "balance" thing, do you?

Kaeblen1 votes

you noticed that keystone masteries don't work on jungle monsters either, right?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Yes, that's the point of the thread. Why would we just not have any keystones that benefit junglers?

Kaeblen1 votes

I'm sure you've already read the other responses on this thread. You have your answer.

DeathBurst2 votes

If a guy called "The Yeti Rider" doesn't interact with enemy champs before 15 minutes, there is a problem somewhere.

Joke aside, though... I think we already had this discussion, but I'll give it another try. I'm tenacious and optimistic.

You don't need power for PvE beyond a certain threshold. Once you can do your Jungle clear fast enough while remaining decently healthy, you're better off investing the rest of your budget into PvP power. So it's a good thing that Riot will make sure that Junglers can still Jungle without investing their Keystone for that, because that leaves more budget open for PvP.

On the other hand, if there was a Keystone specifically tailored for Jungling, then it would become a must-pick, this part of the budget would be completely locked and Junglers would be forced to pick it and have less choice. It would also stifle Jungler's diversity, because the best Junglers would simply be the Junglers that can exploit this Keystone the best (remember Strength of the Ages?).

Like, for real, it makes no sense that you actually want a Keystone for Jungling. It's against your own best interest. And when you say Jungler will be locked into Inspiration? Not at all. They'll take whatever best fit their champ for PvP. Yes, Assassins will go for Electrocute, but Tank will go for Aftershock, and Kindred/Twitch/Ezreal will go for something in Precision, etc.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Like, for real, it makes no sense that you actually want a Keystone for Jungling. It's against your own best interest. And when you say Jungler will be locked into Inspiration? Not at all. They'll take whatever best fit their champ for PvP. Yes, Assassins will go for Electrocute, but Tank will go for Aftershock, and Kindred/Twitch/Ezreal will go for something in Precision, etc.

And in every one of those situations, the jungler will get to use his keystone once every 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes. When the laners are using them every 30 seconds or whenever they're off cooldown.

What happens when we get champs who can lane and jungle and they get their base damage nerfed because they're using Electrocute in lane? What happens when we get tank junglers who get base stats nerfed because they're using Aftershock in lane? Courage of the Colossus SHOULD have been something that supports and junglers could enjoy after SotA was removed, but instead it was abused in top lane and slapped with a horrible base nerf, like, they fucking neutered that ability because top laners were using it. But it was still balanced in top lane, people still took it in top lane because it was good enough to help you win trades...who cares that it was barely noticeable in your one gank in 5 minutes?

And no, Nunu can't use Aftershock, so he has no keystones. Again.

DeathBurst2 votes

Nunu can use Grasp of the Undying, or Guardian, depending on how you play him. Or even Aerie, adding a shield to your AS buff on your ADC, I don't know, be creative.

And others said it already, but it doesn't matter how often you use your Keystone. Courage of the Colossus was still great on Sejuani for those huge shields in late game team-fights. Yeah, Seju had no keystone to help her fight againt the monsters in the Jungle during the first 15 minutes of the game, but it didn't matter. Monsters won't out-play you and win trades.... But those fat engages with 5-champ R's and almost a second health bar of shield with Courage? THAT mattered, and a lot.

You don't need to spend 100% of your power budget to fight monsters. Monsters are weak and stupid. Are you using your ultimate to clear the Jungle? Of course not. Why do you absolutely want to use your Keystone for that purpose, then? Take a Keystone that will be useful on Ganks and/or on Team-Fights, depending on your champions, their strengths, and your game-plan, and everything will be all right.

But please, stop to obsess over that lack of Keystone against Monsters... Laners don't have a Keystone that works against Minions. Jungle Monsters are your minions, and you don't need a Keystone against them either.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Grasp of the Undying makes Nunu into a juggernaut. Which is not his role. If tank itemization is going to be nerfed or adjusted based around the armor and MR buff all tanks get from proc'ing Aftershock, that will be a big blow to him as a tank.

And no, you're not going to take Guardian on your selfish tank jungler. Guardian doesn't help you get out if you get invaded or give you any power if you deal with the enemy laner in the river. Even in a gank it will help you guys...not die? You shouldn't be dying in a 2v1 situation anyway.

Strength of the Ages gave junglers 300 health for clearing the jungle. It didn't necessarily help with your clears but you weren't WASTING your keystone by jungling. You got power, you were rewarded for that power, you had substantial strength like every other player that was appreciable.

DeathBurst2 votes

Nunu, selfish Tank? Let me stop you right there... First of all, Tanks aren't selfish by nature, since they have not enough damage to kill an opponent alone. Otherwise, they'd be Juggernaut, which you just said shouldn't be Nunu's role. But if you want to be selfish, then again, Grasp is a perfectly good Keystone. Remember the damage proc is twice as strong as the heal, so no, it does much more than just "help you not die".

But more specifically, Nunu, selfish Tank? The guy who has a 2-person AS buff, whose current best and most common build (by champion.gg) start with Cinderhulk into Knight's Vow into Solari, and who Meddler mentioned sometimes take Stoneborn Pact and Ardent Censer in the current meta? You should check your definition of "selfish". Guardian totally fits the current most common Nunu build.


But OK, let's admit you don't want Guardian or Grasp, for whatever reason. You don't like them. OK. Then I propose to you this page: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update/8200-8214?build=20122226

Aerie should be deceptively strong: you can get a CD refund by walking to your target and picking up the pet. But since you're melee, that's almost instant, so you get the proc on every single snowball. In a pinch, you can also use you AS buff to give a shield to your carry. The tooltip also doesn't say "champion". Might just be a mistake, but it might be that it works against Monsters too. Anyway, even if it doesn't, that's still a super cool Keystone, that works pretty well with your kit.

Then you can opt for more Mana Sustain or more CDR on your Ultimate. None is very exciting, but both are generically useful. Or you can opt for the defensive option if they have an heavy AP team, but that's much more specific.

Below that, though, you have Absolute Focus. Free damage stats when you're at high life percents, so works pretty well to increase your clear speed, especially since Nunu high sustain in the Jungle helps him keep it active at all time. Alternatively, if you're happy with your base clear speed, you can opt for more CDR or more MS to help your ganks. All in all a pretty great slot.

Finally in the last Slot, I'd pick Gathering Storm, which basically puts a ticking bomb on the enemy team. 'cause if the game ever goes past 40 min, you will just wipe them all with your R. But if you don't like to drag out games, Scorch is a fine proc for ganks, and the MS+AP in the River is a bit specific, but still pretty nice for a counter-jungling champ like Nunu that spends a lot of time in the River.

For your Secondary, you splash into Resolve to still get some durability. Font of Life gives you permanent healing on-hit on the target you snowball, and you can proc it team-wide with your R. All your allies benefit from it too, and it's in % of your max Health.

Which combo great with Overgrowth, an infinitely stacking HP buff, that also work in % of your maxHP and gives you huge late game durability.

Overall, this is a great page for Nunu. You have free heals, huge late game damage, huge late game durability, faster clears in early game, additional damage on your spammable snowball and some bonus utility you can use in a pinch. Over the 6 slots, 5 of them have great synergies with your kit as a whole, and the last one is still pretty generic power that's never bad. If you don't like late game builds as much as I do, you have perfectly fine alternative to replace Gathering Storm and Overgrowth, including one of the few Minor Runes that screams "made for Junglers".

(But why do I have to find a good page for YOUR champ? Why didn't you do that yourself already? I mean, the website is out there for everyone to use... Go explore a bit, for fuck's sake!)


My point is: why are you complaining? You have perfectly good tools to use, and you're refusing to use them, and asking for a worse tool instead, just because you don't understand that you are NOT wasting your Keystone if you can't use it on Monsters. I repeat, you're not using your Ultimate on Monsters either. Do you think you're wasting your ultimate compared to laners who can use it on their lane opponent whenever they want? Of course not...

You seem to thing Strength of the Age was a good thing, but it wasn't. All the best Junglers at this time were Tanks that could abuse it, and even champs like Elise were forced to take it, because they were outclassed otherwise. You shouldn't want to be forced into a meta-warping Keystone, it's much better to have choice and flexibility so that you can pick whatever champ you actually want and then pick a Keystone that really suits them. Not the generic Jungle Keystone that everyone is forced to take.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Nunu takes Stoneborn Pact regardless, because he can't use Courage of the Colossus and he doesn't want Grasp of the Undying. The 5% max health buff is better than nothing.

Ardent is a fairly strong item and when it gets changed to affect the self in the next patch, that should be quite interesting. It might be worth building on Nunu more often if he just gets a constant on-hit buff like he did before the mini-update.

The 2 person AS buff affects NUNU and someone else. So yes, half of that power is selfish, it's not like Lulu or Nami who buff one person that usually isn't them.

Knight's Vow additionally gives NUNU bonus movement speed towards his ally (which he needs because he doesn't have a gap closer) and extra healing based on the ally's DPS.

Similarly, Ardent Censer gives Nunu increased healing (both from the high AP ratio on his heal and from the 10% heal power) as well as an appreciable chunk of mana regeneration, which is always nice to have on a champion with low base mana.

Nunu can certainly be built as a support tank, but he's not building items like Mikael's Crucible, Redemption, or whatever. He's building items that help HIM tank.


Moving on. Guardian gives you a shield if you want to use it. That shield will never be as powerful as the shield from Aftershock. You also do not get the bonus armor or MR from Aftershock, which every single other tank can get.

Instead, you have to be near an ally. You have to want to protect that ally (IE - the player has to have not pissed you off enough for you to just let him die). You have to click the ally and then touch him, and then one of you has to be attacked.

Why is this something you would want on an immobile jungler? There are so many annoying caveats here. More importantly, if you're playing a frontline tank, you don't want to go back and tag someone else. This is more for a warden support like Braum or Janna who would stay back next to the ADC and peel.

As for Grasp of the Undying, it gives you nothing a tank would want. No armor buffs, no MR buffs, no health buffs (except for the permanent health stacking, for all the times you'll get to stack it without a lane partner to harass).

You don't need damage on a tank, so that part is largely irrelevant. The sustain is the only redeeming factor, but that sustain will have to be pitiful compared to Guardian or Aftershock since those have a longer cooldown. So you can get in some good extended trades (again, if you want to duel on a tank, for some reason) but you will lose any duel on a tank because of The Black Cleaver. I guess you could bully an assassin that failed to kill you (you would need to build enough armor to live through it, so it wouldn't happen until 15+ minutes, probably) or you could duel a carry or a support (assuming they don't just Flash away from you).


More importantly, if every other tank is getting big armor and MR spikes because of Aftershock, Riot will probably nerf tank items again to make up for this. They'll give tank items fewer resistances so that the bonuses from Aftershock aren't so high, and then if a tank is unable to use Aftershock (Nunu is probably the only one) then you're just boned. That's the thing I'm most worried about here.


See, there you go again with this Aerie shit. I don't want to deal damage with a keystone. I don't want to deal damage with any of my items or my kit. I would rather throw out every single damage component of my kit (except Consume, need that to secure dragons) if it meant I could maximize my champion's durability. That is the point of playing a tank. I want to live, and I want to CC as often as possible. As much as possible. Fuck my allies, fuck my damage. There is a perfectly good defensive keystone that everyone else gets, but it's being denied to my champion for no fucking reason. And this is the second time it's happened. Courage of the Colossus was bad enough. Why does Aftershock have to have the same stupid restriction?

DeathBurst1 votes

Nunu can certainly be built as a support tank, but he's not building items like Mikael's Crucible, Redemption, or whatever. He's building items that help HIM tank.

Still, half the power of the items you buy is in team supportive effects, so half the gold you spend is not spent selfishly. You'd tank more if you just bought Randuin or Thornmail instead of Knight's Vow.

Moving on. Guardian gives you a shield if you want to use it. That shield will never be as powerful as the shield from Aftershock.

Aftershock gives no shield at all. Check your facts.

Instead, you have to be near an ally. You have to want to protect that ally (IE - the player has to have not pissed you off enough for you to just let him die). You have to click the ally and then touch him,

a) If you let an ally die when you could have saved them, you're an ass-hole, you're not playing to win, and you deserve a report. b) You don't have to stay near your ally, just right click someone at the beginning of the fight and get done with it.

As for Grasp of the Undying, it gives you nothing a tank would want.

It gives you a damage proc to help your ganks in early game, and some in-combat sustain in late game. True, you can't stack the permanent health as easily as a Jungler, but that's far from the main benefit of this keystone.

The whole paragraph after that is full of contradictions. You say you don't care about damage then talk about dueling, but if you duel you very much care about the damage. You say the sustain will have to be pitiful due to the lower cooldown, but since the cooldown is lower, you'll be able to proc it easily 2 or 3 times in team-fights, compared to only once for other keystones. etc.

More importantly, if every other tank is getting big armor and MR spikes because of Aftershock, Riot will probably nerf tank items again to make up for this.

Or, hear me out, they'll just nerf Aftershock directly...

and then if a tank is unable to use Aftershock (Nunu is probably the only one) then you're just boned.

... and even if that actually happens despite everything else, they can simply buff that specific tank.

That's the thing I'm most worried about here.

That's premature and excessive...

That is the point of playing a tank. I want to live, and I want to CC as often as possible. As much as possible.

Your only CC beside your R is a single target slow. Even your R is still just a slow, if you really don't care about the damage. Compared to ANY other Tank that's ridiculous. If you want to survive for ungodly amount of times and CC people, you simply chose the wrong champion. And Nunu never had any more CC than he currently has. Nautilus has literally 3 times as much CC and a defensive steroid without any comparison possible with Nunu. Sejuani idem. Zac idem.

There is a perfectly good defensive keystone that everyone else gets, but it's being denied to my champion for no fucking reason. [...] Why does Aftershock have to have the same stupid restriction?

Then how do you want the effect to proc? From simple slows? You do realize that it's opening a whole other can of worms? And that can of worms totally qualifies as a fucking good reason.


At this point, I feel like you really don't understand your own champion... Nunu is not a selfish super-tank that just want to CC people to death. He's a supportive character without any hard CC and without strong defense steroid built-in into his kit. His role is mostly to secure objectives, and in fights his main objectives should be to snowball the enemy ADC for the AS debuff and to AS buff his own ADC at the same time, with creative use of his ultimate to set-up fights, and yes, he does care about his damage, even though it's not his main concern.

You're trying to force Nunu in a role he doesn't fit, and then of course it doesn't work. That's not a problem with Riot design team...

KAAAAAAAYN DO2 votes

Just gonna pop in here as a personal friend of mine is a Diamond Nunu one trick (rip him this season thanks to catch up exp) I love how DeathBurs is coming in with all these facts about how there is a ton of potential for Nunu and makes clear and valid points while Yetii just argues nonsense. Burs is right, past a specific point you don't need help jungling. That's what smite items and jungle enchantments are for. If your champ is so bad at clearing you are either playing A a laner who was never meant for the jungle or B a champ who unfortunately is so under tuned that a keystone wouldn't save you. If you are going to play Nunu this is a great page http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update/8400-8436?build=31220108 as Nunu your early game relies on counter jungling and cheesing out an opponent but mid-late game is all about enabling a carry similar to how an Ivern or Janna would. You protect them and enable them to be more successful. However like Riot has said many times these camps may appear weak even with OP because they don't have direct power, instead things like auras and buffs feel bad to use because you don't directly benefit from them. Font on Life turnes your E into a life battery to drain off of, conditioning is just great free tank stats and overgrowth lets you scale even harder hp wise so you can grab cinderhulk then drop all your gold into control wards, armor and magic resist. Zombie ward gives you greater invade potential and relentless hunter helps solve one of Nunus main issues of having no gap closer. Just free movement speed to avoid getting kited.

Linna Excel1 votes

I kind of agree. Junglers could be getting buffs in other ways, leaving keystones for effects you want while ganking or dueling.

Variks the Loyal8 votes

Good. That keystone would be an auto-pick for every jungler. Instead, there are options within the non-keystone runes.

Overgrowth increases your max health as you clear the jungle.

The Legend runes in Precision stack off of monster kills.

Zombie Ward and Ghost Poro are very useful for junglers to cover their tracks.

Ravenous Hunter makes jungle sustain better.

Manaflow Band could increase jungler mana sustain.

Absolute Focus increases clear speed if you're above 70% health.

Waterwalking synergizes with a jungler's style of frequently passing the river.

Hextech Flashtraption allows for unconventional ganking paths.

Biscuit Delivery gives better sustain.

Celestial Body gives more health, and the -5% champion damage is a reduced detriment.

Perseverance synergizes extremely well with the low-cooldown Smite.

It also means you can rely on your keystones for teamfights or better ganking. Predator seems like a really good keystone for ganking.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

"Good. That keystone would be an auto-pick for every jungler. Instead, there are options within the non-keystone runes."

Why should junglers not have a keystone for them?

If you make every keystone balanced around PVP power, they will never be balanced for junglers. Junglers might get to use their keystone once every 2 minutes or so, compared to a laner who gets it on cooldown. And that's if the jungler is ganking constantly. If the jungler is not ganking so often, it might only be once every four minutes, or even only once or twice before team fights start. How is that balanced? If such a large part of champion power and identity just does not exist for 20% of the teams before 20 minutes?

As for the rest of this, I don't know half of these runes. I'm guessing most of them have come from the stream, but I don't know where I can watch that after the fact. I guess I'll look for a link.

I will add that junglers don't need mana sustain. The knives give 225% mana regeneration. That's plenty.

DrCyanide3 votes

Keystones are suppose to deliver moments of higher impact. That means interacting with other players. You don't see a "clear minion waves faster" keystone for the same reason. You don't need to use a Keystone on cooldown for it to be effective when you do use it.

If you're still wanting something that works with AFK farming, then Dark Harvest is your closest bet. Just gank or teamfight within 20 seconds of killing a monster, large minion, or champion. Considering the next attack deals damage based off of the total souls collected, I think it's actually intended for gank heavy junglers.

All the runes (except the very WIP "Looter ") are listed here

The Yetii Rider1 votes

I don't understand how this is supposed to be a keystone for afk farming. Even if I somehow kill every single krug, which is 10 monsters, and then gank in 20 seconds I still only get 20 extra damage on the proc. It's really not beneficial.

DrCyanide1 votes

5 large monsters give the same damage as 1 champion kill (+10 damage). Unless I'm mistaken, you get 7 large monsters per full clear (Large Krug, Red, Large Raptor, Large Wolf, Blue, Gromp, and Scuttle), resulting in +14 damage after your first clear (or +24 damage if you got some first blood cheese in). The normal 4 camps respawn every 2:30 for +8 damage every clear.

By the 20 minute mark roles around you're looking at 94 bonus damage for doing nothing but farming your normal camps + scuttle when they were available. We're not even counting Dragons, Rift Herald, cannon minions that died while you were near them, or nearby kills. Lets assume you're level 11 when that happens. You'd have 178 damage (+0.15 bonus AD) (+0.1 AP) on your ganks, more if there was a teamfight and your team got a kill.

For reference, a ranged champion procing Duskblade at the same level gives 200 damage. You basically get a Duskblade proc for free, but with a different condition on activating it and resets in teamfights.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The damage only applies in the next 20 seconds. Where are you getting that it stacks infinitely?

DrCyanide2 votes

I'm getting it from the preseason site. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update#builder

Bonus damage: 60 - 100 (+0.15 bonus AD) (+0.1 AP) + soul essence collected

Champion souls grant 10 soul essence. Monster souls grant 2 soul essence. Minion souls grant 5 soul essence.

If it wasn't infinitely stacking, there'd be no reason to ever get the Keystone, since it'd always be weaker than Electrocute.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

You are missing the part where it says that it empowers the next attack used in 20 seconds.

Khristophoros2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MU4PwxjH,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-26T02:43:02.022+0000)

You are missing the part where it says that it empowers the next attack used in 20 seconds.

The "soul essence collected" part of the damage is EVERY soul essence you have collected so far.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Alright, I tracked down a list of these minor runes, so let's talk.

Overgrowth is definitely much better than Essence Theft. This is a big plus over what they had spoiled so far, so that's good.

Of the Legend runes in Precision the only one I think would see any use on junglers is Tenacity (6% lifesteal is really low for all that work, and Bloodrazor has demonstrated that only like 3 junglers actually want attack speed Kindred Shyvana MasterYi ). So is 3% extra tenacity for each 8 large monsters (one full jungle clear) worth? ...Hm. I guess it's not terrible.

Zombie Ward I think will probably see some amount of play on junglers but I think Ghost Poro is less likely seeing as junglers have to constantly be on the move. Camping a bush to set up the poro is probably not the best use of your time (it has a channel time).

Ravenous Hunter is certainly interesting, though most junglers rely on AOE abilities that have less of a benefit.

Absolute Focus will definitely help clear speeds. Should be interesting.

Waterwalking does give you speed but it's so circumstantial I'm not sure anyone would actually give up Scorch or Gathering Storm for it.

Same thing for Hextech Flashtraption as is for Ghost Poro - If you have 2.5 seconds to channel, why aren't you doing something else? If you really want those weird ganking paths you have a tank Zac and an assassin Kayn for that.

Biscuit Delivery gives a bit of sustain but honestly if you really need to devote a whole rune slot to early game sustain your champion probably shouldn't be jungling anyway.

Celestial Body has a very odd trade off...I'll probably take that on Sona, actually. Let's see...Strength of the Ages gave 300 health and was powerful as a keystone. Body gives 100 health, but requires you to dip into Inspiration (not a very impressive tree overall) and your early ganks are worse. Hmm...it's probably as close to a PVE effect as we're going to get but it's still not a keystone. :/ Well, I'll take it.

Perseverance only synergizes with Smite if you use it while you're ganking or team fighting, which means you need to be jumping onto an enemy inside of their wave, which is a terrible idea. Unless you get a combat smite, but a lot of tanks prefer Tracker's Knife.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

That's not the only aspect for Perseverance. It's also essentially a permanent 7% Armor boost to increase your clear sustain, upped to 14% if you happened to pop a summoner elsewhere.

Wînter Fox2 votes

It's called Dark Harvest in the Domination tree.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

It's called Dark Harvest in the Domination tree.

I'm pretty sure that attack only deals Bonus damage to champions or structures, so it doesn't give you better clears.

The stacks only last 20 seconds as well, so it will only apply to your last camp before a gank.

Revali2 votes

predator is going to be TERRIFYING on junglers.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Even if Predator is powerful enough to be a guaranteed kill every 3 minutes (and I don't think it will be), Nocturne has been able to do that for three years. And no one plays him.

Khristophoros2 votes

If there's a keystone that improves clears then every jungle has to take it. That severely limits variety. There's nothing interesting about that.

Iota Theta1 votes

Hm, i thought when it was first revealed that Grasp worked on monsters too. Just double checked and sure enough, that part is gone.

Edit: yup. Originally

Ruined King’s Tribute Every 4 seconds in combat your next attack deals damage to nearby champions and large monsters equal to 3% of your max health

Source: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/MZd3jemX-runes-corner-runes-content-development-peek

Edt 2: I see you addressed the original Grasp. Whoops.

dreadnoughtus011 votes

Dark Harvest? It explicitly says monsters in the tooltip.

Also Predator, Phase Rush and Summoners Specialist are also options.

If anything they have the most versatility for keystones compared to most other roles.

Linna Excel1 votes

Fleet Footwork in precision would help a jungler with sustain. I could see Yi, Shyvana, Jax, and maybe Vi go with press the attack.

Naqel1 votes

You do not need any added clearing power in the jungle beyond the stat bonus offered by your Rune combination.

There is plenty of other viable jungler runesets, an example universal Jungler setup would look like this: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/preseason-update/8100-8124?build=11102147 It gives you insane mobility and strong dragon control(bonus in the river), which is all you should ever want as a jungler.

More exist, though they might require tuning for specific champions.

Meep Man1 votes

Jungle has never had a JUNGLE Keystone, because then every Jungle champion takes it and there is no variety. Dark Harvest is already borderline a Jungle keystone.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Jungle absolutely had a jungle keystone. Are you high? Strength of Ages. And everyone took it.

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