A Concern with the "Hashinshin" Situation

ModCaptainMårvelous··204 votes·51,951 views

So, not sure if you've all seen, but Surrender at 20, the new patch and more are all starting to move things towards improving bruisers. The new keystone in testing, some buffs to bruisers and some likely more on the way. This is likely due in large part to Hashinshin. For those who have lived under a rock are unaware, hashinshin is a diamond+ top-lane main with a love of dueling champs for 1v1 play. He's somewhat infamous but in recent times he's become sort of a rallying point for people who liked bruisers. (Hell, the Jax bugfix on the patch notes is dedicated to him.)

See, the thing is Hashinshin has been very vocal about Riot's balance (or lack thereof) around toplane. It's gotten so bad that he's lashed out, told Riot to kill themselves, dedicated entire videos to arguing about the state of the game on top lane, etc etc etc. But this isn't about Hashinshin. Rather, I want to point a lens at Riot and ask them this:

"Is this how you want us to get your attention?"

Hashinshin had to make at least 5+ hours of content, hit the front page of reddit and be extremely vocal against Riot to the point of wishing harm upon them. It took other Rioters not even in the same field to sit with Hash and talk him down. It took a figure in the community who was very divisive with a handful of questionable moments in his history to make you look into this.

What this tells me is that as much as Riot listens, it takes some serious screaming to get them to act. And I get it: You have patch cycles, you have work hours and you have a lot of things on your plate. But is this the type of message you want to send? That players have to go absolutely brutal on Riot to get them to act?

At the end of the day, Riot, I think you might need to consider when is the right time to step in because it seems like the only way to cause change is less about how well-measured your post is and rather how abrasive, sarcastic and loud your message can be.

#Follow-Up Edit

Just gonna be picking out some popular arguments/points people bring up...

This isn't new, Hashinshin just complained at the right time!

Hashinshin's points stretch back a lot farther than just a few weeks/last two months. However, it's only recently that he started getting traction because of his passion, anger and overall dismissal of Riot. If you go back to earlier videos, he's still sarcastic but much more measured/calmer. This isn't a new thing but these lined up very close to him being furious and things actually being changed. Could it be a coincidence? Sure, but this isn't exactly the only time Hashinshin has complained. It's just the first time something seems to have changed due to it.

Yeah right, <bruiser keystone/jax bug fix/bruiser changes, etc> were int he works for ages

Perhaps. That said, consider how Riot addressed the top lane: Top lane got it's own section in the patch notes and has been a steady, constant talking point for the past few months. Riot, also compared to other times in LoL's history, has rushed to fix this in comparison. So we have a few possibilities:

  • The complaints/arguments/ranting about top lane caused Riot to act quicker.
  • The new patch schedule coincided as it happened.
  • Riot has always wanted to fix top lane.
  • Timing just happened to be really good right when Hash got louder.
  • Any combination/none of the above.

Again, I personally don't see it as a mere coincidence. And sure, I'll take a bullet and say maybe it's not as large as I assume it is. That said, Hash's words still resonated and put top lane in the forefront. Which was the main point.

I don't see how this matters. Riot just made a change that synched up.

Now pull back and think about it from someone who was in the dark on league. Johnny Noob, who hasn't played in months/years, sees a huge section on top lane. "Oh wow, I wonder why top lane is getting it's own section, maybe a rework or class patch?" He does digging. And you know who he'll find? Why good ol' Hashbrown of course.

Regardless of how you slice it, some level of impact was had by Hashinshin. And because of this, he was successful in bringing up top lane to others. So what does this tell the person who is reading this all? Well, it tells Johnny that Hashinshin going ballistic and becoming a crusader for top lane got results. So say Johnny wants his jungler to be viable or whatever campaign you could want. Who do you think will be his role model for what gets done?

That's the core issue I have: Regardless of how great or small the impact, Hash DID have an impact that likely provoked change or sped it up internally. And is his style of argument the thing Riot wants to encourage?

208 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectar130 votes

Beefy topic - but in short. No we did not make changes to top lane because Hashinshin told us to kill ourselves - that's just par for the course being on the Live Gameplay team. Like many players, he has arguments that I/others agree are issues, but just as many other thoughts that I/others don't agree with. We've been talking about the state of top lane for awhile, but as I mentioned in my post on the dev corner sometimes these problems can take longer to solve, because sometimes we need to validate that there is actually a problem. Our runes team has been working on a fighter/bruiser focused keystone since runes launched. It's one of the holes that we acknowledged existed and would need a solution in due course when the system went live. It may have taken longer than we'd like, but it's also relative to the urgency of the problem. Bruisers have been functional in the current meta using a variety of the keystones. The problem right now is that bruiser players don't feel like there is a keystone that's catered to their specific playstyle. Definitely still a problem, but one among a cornucopia that we want to get around to.

In regards to top having it's own specific section in the patch notes. That's something that we'd talked about trying to do more of going into this year, "that" being grouping changes up if there was a common trend we could call out. We experimented with it a bit on our 7.24b patch, and liked some of the impact there so wanted to look for opportunities to do it again. That being said, our patch note bros are the ones that decide the overall format of the patch notes, not the Live Gameplay team. They're responsible for taking the output of the work of a patch, and bundling it in a way that they think communicates our goals in the best possible way for players who read them. To phrase this a different way, we didn't go into the patch being "this is the Hashinshin top lane patch", rather we had a designer who'd joined us from another team earlier in January that had been putting thought into top and what you see in the patch is some of the initial outputs of his investigations with more to come in future patches. Gustaf and Aether saw the opportunity to group up that work, so they did.

In regards to the sentiment of needing to wish bodily harm on us in order to get us to act, I think a perfect example from this very patch that demonstrates the opposite is the AP itemization rework that we've been working on on Live Gameplay since October. We'd been seeing a lot of dissatisfaction from mage players regarding how stale their itemization felt, and decided to take the project on as something of high value to both open up build diversity, and allow players to feel like they could make more meaningful and interesting decisions in the item system. There was no one wishing us bodily harm because they had to build Morello first every game, nor did we engage with players on the topic before we started the project, but it was something we saw a lot of players talking about so we took action. Maybe in another region there's been a vocal player telling us that AP itemization has been ruining this game for months, and to them they might feel like this patch was driven partly by their sentiment, and you know what, good on them. We have the good fortune of being a game with very passionate players, and if people feel vindicated when something that they feel strongly about in League changes, I'm fine with that. At the end of the day League will likely never be the perfect game for the majority of our players, and as a result people will always complain about the thing that feels most pressing to them. Given that we patch every two weeks, the likelihood of us shipping changes to something that is being talked about by the community is inevitable.

TL;DR - When you cut through the weeds Hashinshin has some valid points that we agree with, many that we don't, but we do not change our priorities for League based on what he says (The Jax bugfix being the exception, a designer saw the video, figured he knew the cause and fixed it because that's a shitty thing for any Jax player).

Lord Desert9 votes

Thanks for your time to clear this up a bit Maple! Good to hear this from a Rioter himself, so we dont need to assume it anymore.

Just as a small nudge, to counter this "we must complain to make riot hear us" - mentality, if possible react to some ideas or suggestions that arent based on salty raginess. This mentality is mostly fueled if the community gets "no" reaction from "normal" things. So you can put the wind out off the sails of the mentality ;P

(You dont need to overdo it and comment on everything, that is completely unreasonable, but if you see a good idea/discussion, maybe drop your personal stance (definitely say its YOUR OWN stance, just to be on the safe side). A "hmm I like this idea, could fiddle around with it to test if it fits" is already enough! No promises,that it will be implemented, or be the next big feature. Not needed) (Also you will bring attention to such ideas/discussions to get them bigger and likely better in the end :P) (And this is also needed on the current boards, that good discussions/features/ideas are highligthed a bit) (Just a small nudge for a possible idea in the future ;D)

Colgate Gator58 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTUeWEqy,comment-id=0047,timestamp=2018-02-22T19:17:59.751+0000)

Beefy topic - but in short.

I don't think anybody is naive enough to think that you actually made changes to Top lane because Hash said all that shit. But because he got answers, he got a Rioter to answer about issues with the game, hell, the guy even offered to talk 1 on 1 privately, that's more than anybody here can hope for. Before you know it Malicious Metal is going to try to doing the same to see if he can have a proper talk about Mordekaiser.

While it's good that Top lane is being looked at, the fact that the game has so many long standing issues with the new season, changes coming at a drip rate (patch 8.1 ftw) and that the person who apparently got more attention from you guys is the one telling you people to kill yourselves is what we find disheartening.

That being said, I know we are bitching about this too much.

SpecterVonBaren18 votes

Malicious DID get 1 on 1 talks with designers in his older threads.

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

This was kind of my point summed up in a nice TL;DR. Hash's ranting and viciousness got a response whereas the measured responses tend to either not get any response or tend to fall to the wayside.

Whether he had a large, small or no impact was moot. What people will see/notice is that his abrasiveness to Riot was overlooked and instead it encouraged Riot. There's a chance Hashinshin might end up being the model by which people who want to be heard conduct themselves by, which isn't a good thing.

Barcid6 votes

I honestly don't think it changes anything. Hashinshin reached a boiling point - albeit probably a short one - and started ranting and raving. A lot of the posts that pop up are quite literally the same way - it goes from somebody saying "A'ight, so look" to "Listen mother fucker".

We're just at the point where shit has been belly up for so long that more and more people are livid. That's just the state of things.

AMYS GRAVE11 votes

We'd been seeing a lot of dissatisfaction from mage players regarding how stale their itemization felt, and decided to take the project on as something of high value to both open up build diversity, and allow players to feel like they could make more meaningful and interesting decisions in the item system.

Mage itemization is a perfect example that the concerns of this post are founded. The dissatisfaction that was politely expressed since the MYMU has been coming through for two years. (Those criticisms were expressed on release, which was patch 6.9 for anyone wondering.) Meanwhile we've been waiting for a bruiser keystone since preseason started which was 4 months ago. So the takeaway here is that if we give feedback in polite ways it isn't perceived by you as urgent so we get results in two years, but when we bitch and moan as loudly and offensively as we can (not just hash, others too) we get results in 4 months.

ChaddyFantome3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTUeWEqy,comment-id=0047,timestamp=2018-02-22T19:17:59.751+0000)

Beefy topic - but in short. No we did not make changes to top lane because Hashinshin told us to kill ourselves - that's just par for the course being on the Live Gameplay team. Like many players, he has arguments that I/others agree are issues, but just as many other thoughts that I/others don't agree with. We've been talking about the state of top lane for awhile, but as I mentioned in my post on the dev corner sometimes these problems can take longer to solve, because sometimes we need to validate that there is actually a problem. Our runes team has been working on a fighter/bruiser focused keystone since runes launched. It's one of the holes that we acknowledged existed and would need a solution in due course when the system went live. It may have taken longer than we'd like, but it's also relative to the urgency of the problem. Bruisers have been functional in the current meta using a variety of the keystones. The problem right now is that bruiser players don't feel like there is a keystone that's catered to their specific playstyle. Definitely still a problem, but one among a cornucopia that we want to get around to.

In regards to top having it's own specific section in the patch notes. That's something that we'd talked about trying to do more of going into this year, "that" being grouping changes up if there was a common trend we could call out. We experimented with it a bit on our 7.24b patch, and liked some of the impact there so wanted to look for opportunities to do it again. That being said, our patch note bros are the ones that decide the overall format of the patch notes, not the Live Gameplay team. They're responsible for taking the output of the work of a patch, and bundling it in a way that they think communicates our goals in the best possible way for players who read them. To phrase this a different way, we didn't go into the patch being "this is the Hashinshin top lane patch", rather we had a designer who'd joined us from another team earlier in January that had been putting thought into top and what you see in the patch is some of the initial outputs of his investigations with more to come in future patches. Gustaf and Aether saw the opportunity to group up that work, so they did.

In regards to the sentiment of needing to wish bodily harm on us in order to get us to act, I think a perfect example from this very patch that demonstrates the opposite is the AP itemization rework that we've been working on on Live Gameplay since October. We'd been seeing a lot of dissatisfaction from mage players regarding how stale their itemization felt, and decided to take the project on as something of high value to both open up build diversity, and allow players to feel like they could make more meaningful and interesting decisions in the item system. There was no one wishing us bodily harm because they had to build Morello first every game, nor did we engage with players on the topic before we started the project, but it was something we saw a lot of players talking about so we took action. Maybe in another region there's been a vocal player telling us that AP itemization has been ruining this game for months, and to them they might feel like this patch was driven partly by their sentiment, and you know what, good on them. We have the good fortune of being a game with very passionate players, and if people feel vindicated when something that they feel strongly about in League changes, I'm fine with that. At the end of the day League will likely never be the perfect game for the majority of our players, and as a result people will always complain about the thing that feels most pressing to them. Given that we patch every two weeks, the likelihood of us shipping changes to something that is being talked about by the community is inevitable.

TL;DR - When you cut through the weeds Hashinshin has some valid points that we agree with, many that we don't, but we do not change our priorities for League based on what he says (The Jax bugfix being the exception, a designer saw the video, figured he knew the cause and fixed it because that's a shitty thing for any Jax player).

When can we expect the quest support changes tto be addressed then? During the patch, you buffed Ancient Coin line, agknowledging that it is weak because without its old active and Quest buff, it lacks any meaningful incentive to get it.

At that point i cant help but wonder why quests were removed to begin with considering how negatively it has affected the actual itemization of supports, not in terms of the supports strength, but in terms of making it more stale.

AnataBakka11 votes

aaah i see "(The Jax bugfix being the exception, a designer saw the video, figured he knew the cause and fixed it because that's a shitty thing for any Jax player)."

We need to become most popular streamers and scream at riot to harm themselves just to get a bug fixed?!? Placing it in the bug reports section is useless isn't it? You wouldn't khow how many more "shittier things for any (insert champion name here) player" happen and never get fixed, and this 0.25 sec (OMG) was fixed right away because of someone screaming at riot. Ok, i get it.

Ben Sharpio39 votes

5 hours of "content" was him repeating himself over and over again.

Also, he lost his damn mind in a meta that doesn't favor him. And why would riot listen to him over someone like Licorice? Someone who is capable of playing top lane champions at a professional level, and someone who has said that the state of top lane is okay? i'd like to hear from more professional players first.

Hashinshin's vision of top lane is shitty all around.

ModCaptainMårvelous40 votes

And, all that said, it was enough for Riot to listen to him or (at the very least) focus on suggestions. Regardless of how much you think top lane did or didn't need help, Riot devoted a whole section in the patch notes to it. That should be a pretty big note that Hash had enough sway or visibility to get Riot to focus on top lane, even if it's just for one patch.

The content, lane, and all the rants are less what I want to focus on. Rather, I want to point out that it took Hashinshin doing all this to get Riot to change something he saw as an issue. Placebo or not, it doesn't bode well for those who think league needs changes.

Death by Glamour45 votes

This is a knee jerk from riot and is a a major step in the wrong direcxtion imo but you cannot blame the guy for what he did.

Players are continuously ignored by the balance team or they are far to slow to react to issues players have woth the game.

People have had issues with toplane for ages, they have posted on the forums and reddit. They have been polite about it. Riot ignores them plows on regarless making changes that makes things worse for them.

You cant blame the players when they finally get angry when they have spoken about problems for over a year.

ModCaptainMårvelous39 votes

Oh, I'm hardly blaming them for being angry. What I am blaming is Riot for causing it to get so bad that this giant multi-month outcry is the only way for Riot to pay attention. Which, in turn, tells people pretty clearly that if you want Riot to notice your issue, you have to go to the lengths Hash went to.

TwitchInMyPants15 votes

{quoted}

Oh, I'm hardly blaming them for being angry. What I am blaming is Riot for causing it to get so bad that this giant multi-month outcry is the only way for Riot to pay attention. Which, in turn, tells people pretty clearly that if you want Riot to notice your issue, you have to go to the lengths Hash went to.

TBH this is something that I hate, they tell us they listen all the time yet they only actually change things if we're so pissed we're threatening to quit and screaming at them on every platform. They've basically encouraged the worst kind of circlejerk where they basically ignore good feedback in exchange for the most toxic, visceral outbursts of rage. Like back in the day you'd have people like Morello, Ironstylus, and Xypherous forwarding our feedback directly and replying to threads on a highly regular basis and good feedback was obviously listened to since they made us aware of it and made changes around it.

These days Rioters barely communicate and they only respond to praise without any amount of criticism or only the most harsh, toxic criticism out there. The latter is part of the reason why a lot of Rioters are skittish to come to us yet ironically they've created a situation that encourages it. Maybe if they actually read constructive feedback and had discussions with us about it like older rioters used to we wouldn't be in a situation where it takes streamers screaming for Rioters to die to actually get changes.

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

They've basically encouraged the worst kind of circlejerk where they basically ignore good feedback in exchange for the most toxic, visceral outbursts of rage.

This, they have ruined any discussion forums about lol by retreating from any semblance of conversation with the community.

Corrupt Bliss4 votes

I do not think Hashinshin was the direct cause of the current changes. Riot had stated long prior that it realized top lane was in a bit of a bind, with bruisers hurting in particular.

Yes, I agree that Hashinshin type rants and whining is bad. However, I think the biggest problem currently is with player mentality. Too many players give up way too soon. Additionally, too many players complain about X champion or X item as soon as they lose to it. There are some things that just should not be done.

First picking Aatrox into Malphite is just silly. Whining that "OMG BRAMBLE VEST IS BROKE AF" when Malphite slows your AS, scales off of armor, and is going to beat your ass if you don't bait out the CD is dumb. All too often people are complaining because they simply are not putting in as much effort as they used to.

A treespook nest4 votes

The problem goes beyond just a few hard counters. I understand why you might have the knee jerk reaction to think that this is just whining over bad decisions, but there are a lot of valid criticisms about fighter viability as a class and their impact on top lane that should be addressed. The reason why this top lane discussion is such a massive situation is because to some it might appear that Riot isn't trying, but I can assure you based on what I've seen that they are putting a lot of effort into all of this. The problem goes beyond just top lane. I would argue that In order to fix fighters in top lane some issues with the jungle and mid lane have to be addressed first, but I haven't put more than a few dozen hours thinking about it.

Corrupt Bliss3 votes

Mhm. I agree. There are always places that League of Legends can be improved, but for the most part it remains a very stable and functional game. In fact, over the seasons I've played (resident since S2 ranked since S3) position diversity has actually grown. Instead of feeling champ locked to 1-4 champions, I can play virtually any body and succeed as long as I play well.

A treespook nest3 votes

I felt like there was more diversity in previous parts of seasons. I think mid lane is a big reason for this so I am hoping the new patch shakes things up.

GôdÌy3 votes

First of all the the jax changes was a bug fix. They didn't buff or nerf anything becuae of hashinshin. Second of all, riot would still probably be making these changes whether or not hashinshin pushed for it. You are making assumptions.

Edge of Daybreak23 votes

It has always been this way if you want attention for a champion or class riot doesn't care about. Even back on original boards I made 11 threads just to try to get riot to even discuss the state of AD assassins. In every thread I took time to lay out points in a polite manner and for 11 threads complete silence. I got fed up and called them all a bunch of insulting names and got rude. Over 11 riot responses and the thread had a ton of traffic in the same day.

Politeness gets you nowhere if you aren't talking about something riot favors they only come out when you get antagonistic because they get to be the nice guys and get the community on their side. You become the bad guy and you do get your answer you just have to put up the premise of being the villain.

I'm honestly surprised that guy who post all of the karma threads doesn't do this already because I don't think I've seen a single riot response on any of those and that man takes a lot of time to make those. I remember a rioter giving a response on sona to the guy who kept making wild conspiracies about riot hating her and it was the same situation. Be rude and riot will answer when they can look like the heros who shut you down. It's honestly awful to have to do but it's better than just making pointless polite threads to get ignored forever.

If hash didn't do what he did I would assume we would have had nothing change at all. No one from riot would even bother caring.

Feel Apathy13 votes

As much as I like seeing people rant I do not think bruisers overall need much or at least not a true damage on-hit passive as a keystone, because Irelia is so fun to play against when she's ahead.

I do agree some items that "bruisers" use or used to use need buffs towards them - item 3053 item 3124 item 3153 item 3074 or at least minor gold reductions to make them "even" with the other builds.

Automated Riven5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feel Apathy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTUeWEqy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-02-22T01:07:34.982+0000)

As much as I like seeing people rant I do not think bruisers overall need much or at least not a true damage on-hit passive as a keystone, because Irelia is so fun to play against when she's ahead.

I do agree some items that "bruisers" use or used to use need buffs towards them - item 3053 item 3124 item 3153 item 3074 or at least minor gold reductions to make them "even" with the other builds.

I agree so much with this. All I want is a rune that doesnt feel like shit (IE something that I actually want to have on my champion, at all points in the game. Simular to how assassins want electrocute the entire game and mages may want comet and support want ahri -or whatever the fuck its called-) I dont want to be forced to take shit like klepto/comet/spellbook because thats the only thing which kinda works and covers my ass in the early game. I dont want to be sitting 20 minutes in the game saying "damn I wish i had an actual keystone instead of this comet shit that I took to survive laning phase which has now become useless" on camille every damn time I played her.

EDIT but that rune on PBE is pretty fucking busted. It has to be toned down before it can hit live.

NaturesMayhem8 votes

I think the only buff bruisers need is a nerf to all champions in general. With damage levels being lower, they can actually survive in fights and pose a threat with their cc and decent damage. My concern is that they will do what you're saying, buff the bruisers to balance out how squish they are. Which only pushes league more to the edge.

CrazFight 12 votes

I mean... look at what it took to get solo queue back after dynamic queue. Sometimes you have to do more than fucking scream.

EndlessSorcerer6 votes

[{quoted}](name=CrazFight ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTUeWEqy,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-02-22T03:14:48.980+0000)

I mean... look at what it took to get solo queue back after dynamic queue. Sometimes you have to do more than fucking scream.

I still remember the discussion several Rioter's had with GBay and Scarra.

It was hilarious watching Scarra tear into them.

Lil Homie busta11 votes

M8, who the f*ck curses and wishes harm to other people because of a game? I mean, he's diamond sure, game's can be very toxic (includes not only players, but Riot's decisions as well) which can piss people off, but everything has limits.

Whoever you're listen or respect it's opinion starts to talking sh*t, that's the moment when you should question yourself if he's still worth to be heard.

ModCaptainMårvelous17 votes

The idea isn't necessarily about him saying that but more so that's the degree he had to go to for Riot to acknowledge what he was saying.

I am in no way defending what he said. What I am saying is that why does Riot only respond/act on the situation to such a degree when the guy goes to the point of wishing harm? Building on that: What is this message saying? "Unless you go to the utmost extreme, Riot's probably not going to pay too much attention to you"?

GôdÌy3 votes

Yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about if you think hashinshin flaming riot is what got their attention. Just gonna downvote this post and move on.

ModCaptainMårvelous14 votes

His flaming did indeed get him attention. It's why RRRRRRRRRRRRRRIGHT through the counterstrike is on the patch notes, even though in said rant he also tells Riot to "go kill yourselves".

ModAcademy Kayn7 votes

Ya said some rioter's made contact with him about it. A source could help with that. Also, just saying, but memes are memes.

HalcyonDweller7 votes

Hi Captain,

Yeah this.... this scares me. Thanks for bringing it up, I hope that Riot notices what you are warning about.

Best wishes.

Altonius Amakiir7 votes

Thank you. I've been trying to get SIMPLE questions answered for the past 9 months now, and can't get them answered. One being what happened to the monthly Q&A with Ghostcrawler? Then I see a guy putting the internet into a frenzy and telling Rioters to kill themselves, and he gets a response immediately. Kinda feels like I was getting shit on when Riot said they want well thought out, nicer posts to respond to.

DeathProfessor7 votes

Riot has one answer to you.

Reddit and Boards are the minority.

Remember when Riot tried to defend Dynamic Queue (Riot Lyte), by having this same excuse. Since WE think you are minority(which may not be true in actuality), we are not going to listen to you.

Teridax687 votes

What concerns me about this situation isn't just the fact that Riot seems to be bending to only the loudest and most toxic of voices, but that up until this point we as a playerbase had been led to believe that Riot didn't consider top lane a real issue. Many players who posted rants just like Hashinshin's were told that they were being far too rude to merit consideration, we were collectively told that we were too small a portion of the game's total players for Riot to care, and the devs even produced a whole bunch of statistics which, according to them, constituted proof that top lane was actually doing fine. To me, this is a red flag: at best, Riot's internal communications have a consistency problem to such a high degree that one part of the devs will consider something a serious problem, and another part won't (including Meddler, a Core Gameplay Lead Designer), right up until the next patch. At worst, Riot has been gaslighting the portion of its players who were giving them feedback for months on end now.

(Just so we're clear on definitions, gaslighting is when one tries to manipulate a person into doubting their own rationality or sanity, mainly through the use of lies and false evidence.)

No matter the actual intent, what this means is that Riot has not been communicating properly with its playerbase. Even if Hashinshin had absolutely zero impact on the choice of focus (and I doubt it), the fact remains that, up until patch day, Riot had been actively telling us that there was no issue, that we were all wrong and biased, and that our opinions were, for all intents and purposes, insignificant. There was no real instance of Riot picking up on these complaints on here and offering some form of agreement or compromise, nor was there even a real indication of Riot even listening at all. The very fact that we're debating whether or not Hashinshin influenced Riot's development process is evidence enough that Riot's feedback structure is opaque, and that its production pipeline does not publicly acknowledge how it informs itself, much less attribute new developments to specific players or communities. This I think means we cannot keep on pretending that Riot is among the best game companies at communicating with their players, or even that their communications are good at all. This is a situation that urgently needs to change.

To pick up from your previous thread, Cap, I sort of get what you mean by Riot "spoiling" players a little more now. I still don't think spoiling is the right word, but I think at this point it genuinely does feel like Riot will only listen to players who scream the loudest, rather than those who express their opinions with respect and proper reasoning. This doesn't have to happen all the time, and I personally think stuff like the Rengar revert or the Mordekaiser title change came from reasoned discussion (though still with a lot of player grouping and organization behind those), but I think we're reaching a point where players lashing out in frustration is becoming not only understandable, but even justifiable, if that is truly the only way to get Riot to listen to feedback and act on it. Effectively, through exceptionally poor communication, not good communication as was said in that thread, Riot is pushing players to become more toxic and more antagonistic. If they want players to stop insulting them every time those players want something done, it is therefore up to Riot to engineer proper conditions where the right kind of behavior is visibly rewarded. Up until then, I'm still waiting for the Boards home to get its Beta tag removed.

La Belle Sauvage5 votes

Possibly the best response I've read so far. Well done.

Risk of Fate6 votes

[deleted]

I am Pacman3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fate Fire,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTUeWEqy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-22T00:41:58.883+0000)

I mean, I don't really like Hashin myself and think he really oughta do something else than have a heart attack over a video game, but this personally raises some concerns for me as a low-level / rank player as now everyone D+ is going to use him as an example of "I know balance!"

Not to say they're wrong, but a cursory glance shows heated debates on things like Yasuo, LeBlanc, ADCs in general, and Supports and shields. Assuming that they did listen to "the community" which is pretty much just high elo, what does that mean for the rest of us? Sure the game might be much better for the top players, but shit rolls downhill where something that might be "balanced" for high levels of play might be utterly OP in lower levels, Master Yi for example.

Then again, what do I know? I barely play anymore not for reason of "game is bad" and went on to focus on other tasks.

They already balance the game around high elo. People D+ already use their rank as proof of game knowledge. I don't see why this would make it any better or worse.

What Is Smite5 votes

To be completely fair, Riot's Balance Team has been neglecting Top Lane balance for a while now. Most people can understand where he's coming from and the emotional high he was experiencing when he wished harm upon Riot. Furthermore Riot Games cannot punish someone for making a criticizing video about them, Youtube is its own platform separate from the League Boards and League subreddit. Riot can put in a request to Youtube to take down Hashinshin's video's about them, but that's all they can do, any other action they take would be either breaking an actual law or an internet law.

General Esdeath 5 votes

Thank you. All the posts of "act civil on the boards, don't get mad" when we've been ignored for years.

Look, we're doing exactly what Hash is doing and it's working. Zoe is getting nerfed, which took so fucking long for no reason.

Blåbæret4 votes

Indeed.

One can only wonder when they will nerf ADCs and make them not mandatory. Sadly, Riot has a balance team that doesn't play their own game, and no one at riot HQ seems to care. Seems like a company with no structural integrity. It'll die soon enough and the game along with it.

Zone of Endless4 votes

Riot is a small indie company

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

item 3077

Sohleks4 votes

Well pretty early on in the season Riot detected top lane woes which quickly got a patch as " give some bruisers 5 dmg and nerf Heimer and Teemo"

They were supposed to improve top lane and deliver a bruiser keystone all along.

I guess it's debatable if the hashinshin explosion is whats causing sudden large changes. Maybe in a small measure. Like how intel pushed up the 8th gen coffeelake launch in response because AMD cpu became relevant again.

Imo parts of the game should never have gotten to this point for this long to begin with.

The fighter rework was a thing thrown around since before class reworks. I guess that became the juggernaut rework. Which basically got dismantled and nerfed overtime first the champions then their items. Nvm that. Much of the other fighters were left alone. Now they are getting to some of them as they feel up to it finally. Some others are getting large buffs atm.

What is a bit alarming is they are mainly just increasing their offensive capabilities. Which perhaps should be higher than it is atm compared to other classes. However dmg is generally high already. Are we only gonna pump fighters up as assassins? What about make it so they can actually tank a bit?

Karn Bishop4 votes

Well yes that is correct, i mean if riot responded to well thought out posts then less people would resort to rage post click bait, there have been several posts discussing the balance issuess of marksmen + tanks + enchanter point and clicks and those tend to just get ignored by riot and they instead just post on positive comments / memes and games / clickbait posts to tell us this is why they never respond to posts completely ignoring the constructive post one spot down from the click bait post.

I think the culture at riot changed which is part of why we saw a exodus of rioters who commonly posted on the boards from riot such as ironstylus.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

As someone who tries really hard to write thoughtful and open discussion posts for subjects I believe need work, this is extremely frustrating for me.

What is all my effort for? I curb my words, I make my arguments as friendly and polite as possible, I don't disparage Riot, and for what? Just to have someone who does all of those things I've avoided get Riot's attention and work on what he calls out? It feels pretty shitty.

DeathBurst2 votes

I find very worrying that a mod would hold such a discourse...

You should know better than the average lurker that no, Riot didn't finally decide to act about Top lane because of Hashinshin rants. Just no. TP has been tweaked several times over the years, Top Lane being an Island is a sad meme that Riot has been trying to address since even before I started playing, the impact (or the lack thereof) by position that players can have is something they regularly look at, and regularly rebalance, to make sure that no position has too much or too little impact. Hashinshin has always been ranting about Top, for months and years, continuously. Whatever the point in time when changes to Top lane happened, you could argue that it was because of him, simply because he's always ranting, so the timing always coincide with one of his rants. But you'd be wrong.

And you should think a bit longer about the influence you hold over the rest of the community before making a thread that will incite even more rants. You're doing nothing to solve the issue here, you're just convincing people that Hashinshin had an impact (that he didn't have), and so pushing more people to do like him. YOU are creating the problem you're worrying about yourself.

You want to know how to get Riot's attention? Look at Meddler's posts, look at Sparkle's recent efforts to be more open, they don't reply to angry ranters, they don't reply to hyperbole. They reply to people who are actually here to have a discussion. You want a role model for campaigning, look at Malicious Metal, not Hashinshin.

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

Well, mods are players too. We're free to have our own opinions, ideas, and the like.

And yes, Hashinshin has always been ranting. It is, however, only around when his voice became the loudest and he got the most traction that something happened. This is what concerns me: Even if Riot was working on this for years, the time of the release is what worries me. They did it right when the backlash against Riot in terms of top lane was the loudest. It paints a picture that this loud outcry was what lead to such a situation...and no, I disagree that it had "absolutely no impact". If Hash's words weren't nearly as prevalent, I don't think we would have seen things like top lane getting its own section on the balance page. I doubt we would have seen such a push towards a bruiser keystone that we've seen recently. My concern is that even if the arguments were present before, it was only near the height of this argument that Riot acted.

As an additional point of reference, Riot has been teasing a fighter rework since season 2. We've never seen more to it beyond wishful thinking. Conversely, action transpires when the outcry of top lane/hash reaches the loudest.

Now, let's get something out of the way:

And you should think a bit longer about the influence you hold over the rest of the community before making a thread that will incite even more rants. You're doing nothing to solve the issue here, you're just convincing people that Hashinshin had an impact (that he didn't have), and so pushing more people to do like him. YOU are creating the problem you're worrying about yourself.

You want to know how to get Riot's attention? Look at Meddler's posts, look at Sparkle's recent efforts to be more open, they don't reply to angry ranters, they don't reply to hyperbole. They reply to people who are actually here to have a discussion. You want a role model for campaigning, look at Malicious Metal, not Hashinshin.

First and foremost no, I don't want more Hashinshin-style "FIRE THE BALANCE TEAM" ranting. That is why I made this in the first place. My concern is that Hashinshin's ranting compiled with top lane changes coincidentally being pushed after his outcry was the loudest will "inspire" other people to copy what he's said. If anything, my concern shouldn't be seen as "wow this guy has a point" but rather "Oh god what if we have to be hashinshin to have action take place?"

Second, I am right there with Riot when they do want to be open about the situation. I talk with Rioters about things like gameplay and I appreciate them doing their best to respond to these boards...but I can think of a single time in history where a board's suggestion was adapted into the game. That suggestion was changing Mordekaiser's title from "Lord of Death" to "The Iron Revenant". Conversely, all those good discussions Malicious can have? All those great gameplay ideas and posts that -do- appear? They're largely ignored.

Now I want you to put yourself in my shoes: Someone who has used the boards for years since they made the switch and seen hundreds of threads, some of which with absolutely stellar suggestions fall to the wayside. Comparatively, along comes this guy who has been a problematic figure for years who suddenly gains a following and is a rallying point for the state of the game/bruisers. Then, be it by coincidence or by actual effect, Riot suddenly has a far larger focus on top lane when most of the recent patches have focused on a handful of tank top laners. I'm not exactly thrilled with the situation even if it is just a fortunate circumstance.

My point and my fear is that Hashinshin, regardless of how much impact you think he had, will be seen as a point of contention. Again, regardless of circumstance or chance, his rants ended up sparking more discussion either just in time for Riot to change things or emboldening Riot to change things. I don't want more situations like this where I have to argue that maybe this wasn't a coincidence. And most of all, I want discussions like this to remain civil and earnest, not devolve into an us (players) vs. them (Riot) mentality where players get so frustrated and out-of-line that they tell Riot to "go kill yourself".

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