Why does armor feel useless

Soul Dealer·May 18, 2019·50 votes·16,668 views

I was playing some games on the pbe as malphite and I was armor stacking. I had something like 450 armor and was against and aatrox. Now I was told that armor counters aatrox but he was somehow still deleteing me when I was a malphite with 450 armor. The only item he had was cleaver and even with its 24% armor shrewd I still feel like I shouldn’t get deleted. A similar thing happens earlier as well where I was malphite again and had around 600 armor and a Rengar with just a duskable was deleteing me. Duskblade gives 21 lethality, that’s no where near enough to allow him to delete me. Why does armor feel so weak?

The only thing I can think of for aatrox was that he had Conq but that still doesn’t explain the Rengar.

127 Comments

GalaxyburstzMay 18, 201929 votes

Because

item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3033 item 3036 item 3153 item 3035 item 3134

Daddy AntsMay 18, 201913 votes

{quoted}

Because

Blade of the Ruined King is NOT AN ARMOR PENETRATION ITEM.

The damage dealt by BoTRK is Physical and can be reduced by armor.

GalaxyburstzMay 18, 20197 votes

I think you're missing the point

: /

I'm talking about the passive which ignores armor completely lol

AyzevMay 18, 201910 votes

{quoted}

I'm talking about the passive which ignores armor completely

It does not ignore armor. It's physical damage, not true damage.

GalaxyburstzMay 18, 20192 votes

Hmm, you're right it is physical damage but let's say that you have 2k HP, then if you're attacked by item 3153 the auto attack is dealing 160 bonus damage which makes most champions armor irrelevant, you would have to stack more than two armor items and have strong base armor to even feel the effects of the resistances, not to mention that only auto attacks are completely making your armor negligible, now put your abilities damage on top of that especially empowered auto attacks and watch them be melted

At the end of the day armor does feel useless sometimes, Vayne MasterYi item 3124 item 3153

AyzevMay 18, 20194 votes

It doesn't make armor irrelevant because it won't be 160 anymore after armor is accounted for. But I do agree that armor is lacking, and it can't be remedied by simply building more health instead, since max health damage is abundant.

GalaxyburstzMay 18, 20192 votes

Ok Ayzev

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/1fy.gif

XJ99999999999999May 18, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Blade of the Ruined King is NOT AN ARMOR PENETRATION ITEM.

The damage dealt by BoTRK is Physical and can be reduced by armor.

it doesn't feel like it does anything. 8% of current health is a ton. even with 500 hp, that's 40 damage, like they have a BF sword.

The thigh guyMay 19, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Blade of the Ruined King is NOT AN ARMOR PENETRATION ITEM.

The damage dealt by BoTRK is Physical and can be reduced by armor.

And every 8 points of health you buy increases its damage by 1. So unless you are stacking frozen hearts or some shit, Bork if going to do more damage.

Slythrin UmbreonMay 18, 201915 votes

Riot only supports aggressive playstyles now. If you want to do anything other then burst damage, they just fun police the hell out of you. Won't even let wardens be defensive smh

Jennifer420May 18, 201913 votes

i'd like to "clear up" a small mistake i see here in the comments. ignoring any sort of armor pen, after 200 armor or magic resist, its really better to buy health. you have the 70% damage reduction and it wont go up by much more. you could spent almost 3k on a frozen heart to get 300 armor total, but you will "only" ignore around 77% then. i think at this point pure health is just better.

only amumu and rammus have a small benefit from stacking only resistances. amumus e gives him more resistance against autoattacks and rammus is a walking thornmail.

ManBearPig916May 18, 20195 votes

{quoted}

i'd like to "clear up" a small mistake i see here in the comments. ignoring any sort of armor pen, after 200 armor or magic resist, its really better to buy health. you have the 70% damage reduction and it wont go up by much more. you could spent almost 3k on a frozen heart to get 300 armor total, but you will "only" ignore around 77% then. i think at this point pure health is just better.

only amumu and rammus have a small benefit from stacking only resistances. amumus e gives him more resistance against autoattacks and rammus is a walking thornmail.

But, I have a serious question.

Armor is paired with health very often, so what could you do? THere are very few pure health items that offer big health returns and have no armor, but they do include Warmog's, Frozen Mallet, and maybe Sterak's Gage assuming it triggers. Every other high health item is paired with damage, such as Titanic Hydra, Black Cleaver, etc., and yet, those offer about as much health as a health+armor item like Sunfire Cape, Deadman's Plate. You're always getting around 300-450 health on a health item, whether it is paired with armor or damage, and yet you say to stop building armor at a point. So, do you build health plus damage items then?

So, what would malphite do? Not continue to build health and armor? Frozen Mallet offers 700hp, which is only 250hp above the average 450hp on a health item. The only health item that seems a lock vs pens would be Warmog's at 800 health. I guess, if an AD champ, I could do Frozen Mallet, Sterak's Gage, or Black Cleaver, and if an AP champ, Rod of ages, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, or Liandry's Torment. Notice how these alternatives are NOT more health-stacky than the original plan of tanking up save for possibly 3 items (Warmog's, Frozen Mallet and Sterak's Gage)

PopcornBunniMay 19, 20192 votes

No, it isn't better to buy health after 200 resistances. It's better to buy health if you have 200 resistance and less than 2250 Health. Just as it's better to buy resistances if you're at 3000 health and less than 300 in resistances. The effective health offered by health/resistances coupled with the gold value of those purchases make the relationship as of the lower green bar in the following graph:

https://i.imgur.com/1tFkMJa.png[]

Roughly speaking, it means that for every 1000 health you have, you should have 100 in each resistance to maximize your effective health. In actuality, coupled with the base stats of champions per level, it means a couple of things, namely: Buying bonus resistances before you have 1125 health is a waste of gold (comparatively to buying extra health). Even against a 400 AP Veigar you get more survivability against him buying health than magic resistance until you reach equilibrium.

The higher green bar on the graph shows the purchasing power of effective health against item 3035 and item 3135 and can be extrapolated to apply to item 3071 and any other source of % resistance mitigation/shred by shifting the bar to the left by the same ratio. Against 's 24% shred, shift the bar left by 24% armor: Instead of having 3000 health at 300 armor, you should have 3000 health at 220, and at 300 armor you should have 3947 health.

Sett a trapMay 18, 20196 votes

Stacking any defensive state has diminishing returns. I don't thnik the extra Gold you spent to get from 200armor to 450 was worth it. Would've been better off getting a brawler item or utility...also you're a tank. your job isn't to 1v1

Soul DealerMay 18, 201919 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prestige Vayne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTQZ0a6k,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-18T15:48:55.689+0000)

Stacking any defensive state has diminishing returns. I don't thnik the extra Gold you spent to get from 200armor to 450 was worth it. Would've been better off getting a brawler item or utility...also you're a tank. your job isn't to 1v1

It worth in on malphite because my damage scales with armor. The more armor I have the more damage I have.

AHarmlessTacoMay 18, 201928 votes

That's not entirely true. Every 1 armor or magic resist increases your effective health by 1% against that type of damage. The argument to be made is that at some point it is more valuable to invest in health rather than additional armor, and that the more armor you have the more value is gained from the Last Whisper and the Black Cleaver, while more health gives BoTRK a stronger on-hit effect.

Sett a trapMay 18, 20196 votes

{quoted}

That's not entirely true. Every 1 armor or magic resist increases your effective health by 1% against that type of damage. The argument to be made is that at some point it is more valuable to invest in health rather than additional armor, and that the more armor you have the more value is gained from the Last Whisper and the Black Cleaver, while more health gives BoTRK a stronger on-hit effect.

That's literally what I said.

Diminishing returns exist, otherwise you would be able to reach 100% reduction. Secondly

the argument to be made is that at some point it is more valuable to invest in health rather than additional armor, and that the more armor you have the more value is gained from the Last Whisper and the Black Cleaver, while more health gives BoTRK a stronger on-hit effect.

That's marginal gains vs marginal costs....and with diminishing returns from Gold spent per returns back with the additional MR/Armor at high levels comes into a factor when purchasing your 5th and 6th item.

MarshbouyMay 18, 20196 votes

No, diminishing returns would be getting only .5% EHP against that damage type after a certain point.

There are no diminishing returns with armor. The perceived "diminishing returns" come from how the math works. I don't know the specific numbers, so I'll make some simple ones up for the example.

Lets say you want to reduce incoming damage by 50%. You'll need 100 armor to do that.

Now in order for you to reduce incoming damage by another 50% (so 75% total), you'll need 100 more armor (200 total).

Now if you want to reduce incoming damage by another 50% (so 87.5% total), you'll need 100 more armor (300 total).

The amount of incoming damage reduction never actually changes. 100 armor will always reduce incoming damage by 50%.

That's how the math works, the numbers are more complex, but in essence that's what is going on.

KirbyCakeMay 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No, diminishing returns would be getting only .5% EHP against that damage type after a certain point.

There are no diminishing returns with armor. The perceived "diminishing returns" come from how the math works. I don't know the specific numbers, so I'll make some simple ones up for the example.

Lets say you want to reduce incoming damage by 50%. You'll need 100 armor to do that.

Now in order for you to reduce incoming damage by another 50% (so 75% total), you'll need 100 more armor (200 total).

Now if you want to reduce incoming damage by another 50% (so 87.5% total), you'll need 100 more armor (300 total).

The amount of incoming damage reduction never actually changes. 100 armor will always reduce incoming damage by 50%.

That's how the math works, the numbers are more complex, but in essence that's what is going on.

Please don't post shit that you don't have the clue about.

If you want to reduce incoming damage by 50% you need to double the amount of armor relative to 100%.

100 armor gives 50% reduction. 300 armor gives 75% and 700 armor gives 87.5%. 200 armor gives 67% reduction. 400 armor gives 80%.

Darkdemon653May 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Please don't post shit that you don't have the clue about.

If you want to reduce incoming damage by 50% you need to double the amount of armor relative to 100%.

100 armor gives 50% reduction. 300 armor gives 75% and 700 armor gives 87.5%. 200 armor gives 67% reduction. 400 armor gives 80%.

Let me ask you something. Which is more important to you - the percentage that's displayed when you hover your mouse over your armor or the amount of additional time armor will allow you to survive?

ThefrostyvikingMay 18, 20193 votes

Actually .....google "lol armor" one of the pictures there will be very telling.

I can tell ya though, post like 200 armor the curve representing rising resistance starts flatting out quickly.

MarshbouyMay 18, 20192 votes

That's just a quirk of the mathematics. The basic formula never changes. One armor = 1% extra EHP against that damage type.

ThefrostyvikingMay 18, 20193 votes

.......Nope thats not true.

It would be true if the line went up at a fixed rate, but since it eventually pans out that´s not the case.

Post 150-ish armor you gain less effective health than say between 0 to 50 or 50 to 100.

Because you gain more damage reduction up to 150 -ish compared to after.

That is pretty much why you dont just stack armor and instead also want health and special effects like those on ninja tabi or Randuins, because they help fill the gap that is left open with just armor on its own.

MarshbouyMay 18, 20195 votes

No you don't.

you are always reducing incoming damage by the same % per point of armor. You are always gaining 1% EHP per point of armor. you gain 1% EHP per point of armor at 32 armor and 200 armor. The amount of EHP you gain NEVER CHANGES.

To quote myself

There are no diminishing returns with armor. The perceived "diminishing returns" come from how the math works. I don't know the specific numbers, so I'll make some simple ones up for the example.

Lets say you want to reduce incoming damage by 50%. You'll need 100 armor to do that.

Now in order for you to reduce incoming damage by another 50% (so 75% total), you'll need 100 more armor (200 total).

Now if you want to reduce incoming damage by another 50% (so 87.5% total), you'll need 100 more armor (300 total).

The amount of incoming damage reduction never actually changes. 100 armor will always reduce incoming damage by 50%.

That's how the math works, the numbers are more complex, but in essence that's what is going on.

The reason why it is more efficient to build HP than armor at a certain point is more complex than nonexistent diminishing returns. It has to do with the cost of armor vs hp, items like Last Whisper and BotRK, the existence of different damage types, and how the math works. But basically, it's normally more effective to build some resists and some health so that you are well rounded.

SaezioMay 18, 20196 votes

600 armor and got deleted by someone with 1 item.... Yeah that's either incomplete info or a lie.

Also, what do you consider "deleted" ? You didn't have a chance to R away because of how fast you died? Or you stood and fought with them and you lost the 1v1 because they have sustain and you don't?

Tentacle AdvisorMay 18, 20192 votes

{quoted}

600 armor and got deleted by someone with 1 item.... Yeah that's either incomplete info or a lie.

Also, what do you consider "deleted" ? You didn't have a chance to R away because of how fast you died? Or you stood and fought with them and you lost the 1v1 because they have sustain and you don't?

This. Like, I want to be on OP's side about Armor feeling weak (because it truly does), but their example case(s) aren't giving us enough information to draw an unbiased argument.

SaezioMay 18, 20193 votes

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, Armor does suck tremendously.

HopeStartsWithUMay 18, 20196 votes

This post is full of lies that it fucking HURTS to read. YO, moderators? Are you there? When will you start deleting these shit posts already?

There is no fucking way an Aatrox "deleted" you with, a fucking malphite, with 450 armor. You better provide some video footage.

There is also NO FUCKING WAY that a Rengar, a RENGAR be it with conqueror or without, DELETES a malphite with only duskblade. That doesn't make up and is bullshit at its finest. At this point YOU should be deleting that rengar.

If you don't provide any video to these kinds of statements then I can't see any reason why Riot should even consider the "armor feeling useless" issue.

SpisepindenMay 18, 20195 votes

Malphite's armor value can be deceptive, as the bonus from his passive is tripled when his shield is up. Once your shield is knocked off, your armor goes down by a lot.

To really answer your question and do the math on the damage you took, we need to know your build, level and runes, as well as the build, level and runes of the Aatrox at the time.

Otherwise we're just discussing anecdotal evidence and feelings - which rarely have much to do with the truth. Maybe he ran Electrocute and the burst caught you out? Maybe he knocked off your shield because you didn't have a lot of bonus hp, and suddenly you're down 200 armor + the BC shred afterwards? Maybe he had Ignite as well?

LovelleMay 18, 20195 votes

Because there is no %damage reduction from masteries anymore, along with %bonus armor/mr being unattainable until the 10 minute mark, when the snowballing has already started.

In contrast, the offensive trees have a plethora of %based damage increases, that only get better based on takedowns and the opponent's health.

Right now, you're better off building damage and health, even on tanks. Because even if you aren't deleted, you WILL be shredded in 3 seconds at most by penetration.

MavëríckMay 18, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Soul Dealer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTQZ0a6k,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-05-18T15:28:47.945+0000)

I was playing some games on the pbe as malphite and I was armor stacking. I had something like 450 armor and was against and aatrox. Now I was told that armor counters aatrox but he was somehow still deleteing me when I was a malphite with 450 armor. The only item he had was cleaver and even with its 24% armor shrewd I still feel like I shouldn’t get deleted. A similar thing happens earlier as well where I was malphite again and had around 600 armor and a Rengar with just a duskable was deleteing me. Duskblade gives 21 lethality, that’s no where near enough to allow him to delete me. Why does armor feel so weak?

The only thing I can think of for aatrox was that he had Conq but that still doesn’t explain the Rengar.

I looked at that game and you should've gotten thornmail first item vs Aatrox. It ruins his healing. He is, afterall, a sustain bruiser again. You gimp his healing and he loses a valuable part of his kit.

AnateraMay 18, 20194 votes

Because it is useless. When damage is too high, it won't matter how much armor you have.

Absolut GarenMay 18, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Because it is useless. When damage is too high, it won't matter how much armor you have.

You also need to build health. The analogy of the skinny man in the very thick coat... is not enough. Building armor is important, but it must have sufficient health to protect; as was pointed out, many item/champion mechanism will negate, diminish, or bypass armor.

AnateraMay 18, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Absolut Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTQZ0a6k,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-05-18T19:36:43.643+0000)

You also need to build health. The skinny man in the very thick coat... is not enough. Building armor is fine, but it must have sufficient health to protect; as was pointed out, many item/champion mechanism will negate, diminish, or bypass armor.

Ok? I mean, lots of armor items people build for already have health on them?

Absolut GarenMay 18, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Ok? I mean, lots of armor items people build for already have health on them?

Yeah, we don't know what he built in that match. Can we get a link to the match history?

Clockwork MouseMay 19, 20194 votes

There is just too much damage in the game. I been saying it since season 8, we need a full gameplay nerf. Something to just address the power creep the game has now. Like, cut out 30% of the damage from all champs all at once, from items, and ruins. I think the standard should be something like no one has the damage to kill someone from 100% HP though burst, until late game hits.

Stróc DúnmharúMay 19, 20194 votes

Because Armor Pen and Lethality items are too broadly useful, and more and more champions are getting True Damage. Conqueror happens to be taken more by AD champions than AP champions, and Black Cleaver to just too good an item in general, though to be fair it props up champions who without it are... lacking in other core item options.

Vanic998May 18, 20193 votes

Funny thing, when I complain about the existence of 3 lethality items, 2 of which assassins always build (hurry for build diversity), they say "Buy Zhonyas." Then when I complained about being one shot WITH A ZOnyas, they then say, "Well you only have a zonyas." I'm not arguing for zonyas making the user tanky, but just enough to survive a oneshot.

ModAcademy KaynMay 18, 20193 votes

Feel free to share a replay my man.

Also what was your max health?

TekkenPlayerMay 18, 20193 votes

Because unlike dota, riot hates the idea of there being an item for every situation

xDogMeatxMay 18, 20192 votes

malphites passive armor amps his defense to 600 (vs rengar) that passive W is for mainly poke damage but 600 armor is practically 6 physical hp bars. jesus sounds like rengar needs a nerf

RagnaveilMay 18, 201926 votes

Or armor scaling needs a buff. The % reduction got heavily nerfed so tank's couldn't perma soak damage with the bonus armor pen when it existed. Now that total exists, there should be no reason why armor cant scale that well later on.

Tahminatrix May 18, 20194 votes

Exactly, armor scaling isn't even linear and favors squishy champions.

100 armor is 50% resistance...okay...200 is 63% rather than 75%....hmm....

NineTailedMysticMay 19, 20192 votes

Resistances don't have diminishing returns.

Tahminatrix May 19, 20192 votes

YES THEY DO

100 armor is half damage (50% damage reduction)

the next 100 armor (200 total which is TWICE AS MUCH AS 100) should halve damage again (75%), instead it only reduces it by 25% (63.5)

NineTailedMysticMay 19, 20193 votes

Every point of Armor provides the same amount of protection as the last. 1% effective HP vs it's damage type. If I've got 1000 HP and 100 Armor, I have 2000 effective HP vs physical damage. If I have have 1000 HP and 200 Armor, I have 3000 effective HP vs physical damage. Even though your silly little % damage reduction gets lower, it protects you all the same.

SaiannaMay 18, 20193 votes

I'd rather see all damage slash-reduced by 30%. Reduce the powercreep rather than adjust everything else.

SpisepindenMay 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I'd rather see all damage slash-reduced by 30%. Reduce the powercreep rather than adjust everything else.

With items like Gargoyle's Stoneplate existing, tanks can be PLENTY tanky with the right build. Tanks which get ahead are already practically unkillable as it is, but what you're suggesting is making tanks unkillable when they're on even gold. You're also forgetting that tank items are cheaper than damage items.

ChaosReynMay 19, 20196 votes

Yeah, in all fairness, I don't really think AD is in a bad spot right now.

At the moment, the issue is CDR - It's EVERYWHERE. It's in places it honestly shouldn't be. When ADC champions get 20%CDR in their builds just accidentally while building their attack speed items, it's a bit ridiculous. CDR is supposed to be comparable to a caster's version of AS, but to be blunt this is a huge reason mages totally started to abandon mid: LITERALLY EVERYONE ends up with CDR now, and more damage in their build paths than the mages have with what used to be their strong, rapid fire spell set.

CDR is what needs to chill at the moment. I'm not saying remove it from all AD items...just the ones it has no business being a part of.

Bronze GOATMay 18, 20197 votes

Armor would really benefit from an overhaul. Tanks should be great against burst damage, but weak against sustained damage. Maybe making armor break off like tower plates, giving really great defense at first and breaking down with each consecutive hit. Might fix a lot of these problems.

Cause if you think about it, the 2 problems with tanks are that they either get blown up too fast or become unkillable. I feel like this would kill 2 birds with one stone.