@Meddler: context on Trinity/Witt's End change?

DeathBurst·May 18, 2016·7 votes·12,635 views

What's the goal of these changes? What kind of champions are they aimed at? How experimental and likely to get to live?

Thanks ;)

85 Comments

RiotMeddlerMay 18, 20169 votes

The TF changes are somewhat experimental and are aimed at generally buffing the item for champions who use a moderately even mix of abilities and auto attacks but don't like crit as much (don't build IE or ER for example).

The Wit's End changes by contrast are just a straight buff. It's underperforming, even on the champions it should be best on, so we're pretty confident we can add a bit of power to it. There's also a sub goal there, by using a Negatron Cloak in the recipe instead of a Null Magic Mantle, of allowing certain champs to go for a heavier MR item early if they need to without having to delay finishing an item as much.

Jeddy017May 18, 20165 votes

Doesn't the lost of crit ruin TF for Gangplank Corki (kind of) & the TF build for Yasuo . Also, bumping up the CDR to 20% kind of affect the item 3078 item 3110 item 3065 build for champs like Nasus & Hecarim because of the 10% wasted CDR

DeathBurstMay 18, 20166 votes

10% wasted CDR is 300 gold, it's not much, and it's not even completely wasted since it also helps you to reach the cap sooner. The timing is important.

It's not 100% optimal, but I'm pretty sure the current change on PBE is a net buff for Nasus, and probably for Hecarim too.

PistallionMay 18, 20161 votes

300g not much? what?

DeathBurstMay 18, 20163 votes

Over the cost of a 3-item build, no, it's not much. Especially since it's not fully wasted.

thewire666May 18, 20162 votes

I dont think it helps nasus. Nasus doesnt need more AS, but critic chance with q + sheen can make the difference in a battle. Also you eventually reach 40%cdr

SohleksMay 18, 20165 votes

Considering a lot of Nasus's thing is hitting towers I don't think more attack speed, more cdr and a lower cost is a bad deal for crit of all things. It's a straight up buff for every champion unless you're GP or Yasuo and Yasuo has other builds. Corki I'm unsure on but it should be a much better 1st item more how it used to be. It has item 3046 tier attack speed like this.

AMYS GRAVEMay 19, 20161 votes

nasus new build could look like item 3078 item 3065 item 3083 for a 40% cdr rush. If you want armor then grab a DMP, thornmail, randuins, or ninja tabbi before finishing warmogs.

Phoenix Kotori May 18, 20162 votes

Could always change item 3065 for item 3512 or item 3102 instead.

Or item 3742 item 3143 instead of item 3110 .

AMYS GRAVEMay 19, 20161 votes

no nasus wants a zzrot, they want a frozen lane to easily farm.

Anu3isIIMay 19, 20161 votes

In the late game you want to split push to the maximum, forcing multiple people to stop you...

Zzrot is one of the best items for split push, and, in my opinion, it should be built as an end-game item every time on a tanky splitpusher.

ViashinoWizardMay 19, 20162 votes

item 3025 is straight up better than item 3078 item 3110 on Hecarim and Nasus in the first place.

HotChillyMay 18, 20161 votes

As a GP player this change has me super scared! And yet I understand how much fun it would be for those other champions to play with a TF again. I was wondering if you could say anything as to the effects you expect it to have on GP and if you have any further changes towards him if the trinity changes go through? Thanks! =)

oscar the grouchMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As a GP player this change has me super scared! And yet I understand how much fun it would be for those other champions to play with a TF again. I was wondering if you could say anything as to the effects you expect it to have on GP and if you have any further changes towards him if the trinity changes go through? Thanks! =)

Yeah, I play Gangplank and Yasuo and this change has me terrified. There's no way Riot goes through with these changes without considering these non-marksmen champions, right? RIGHT??

bloodmothMay 18, 20163 votes

It doesnt really look like a marksman item anymore, i think its a pure bruiser item now for champs like Udyr and Trundle

Sad TyrantMay 19, 20161 votes

But even Trundle likes the occasional Crit, really surprises the enemy

bloodmothMay 19, 20161 votes

Sure, i doubt anyone would complain about a free crit, but i doubt he would be as happy knowing his gold is going into it

HotChillyMay 19, 20161 votes

I hope not, I would be sad to see the item synergy (which GP took many nerfs for having) suddenly vanish.

GP is completely forced to build trinity, as his entire kit is balanced around 1: proccing sheen and 2: being able to crit with abilties. He has lowish base damage on his q and e because it scales with crit and will have a sheen behind it, so he is forced to build sheens and crit. Now his items build will be really clunky with the sheen item no longer providing a start into his crit needs.

Also on a side note paying for all that attack speed on the new trinity (which again, GP is forced to buy) feels soooooo bad, attack speed should be avoided like the plague. GP loses any stand still and slap fight with other champs, its just not what he does, nothing in his kit benefits from standing still and autoing, which is all attack speed is for. No % dmg per hit, no true damage on every auto, no magic damage every 3rd hit, no reason for attack speed, it is never good to take a straight fight, always hit and run with high amounts of AD. I dunno, all these changes to the item GP is forced to buy make me a sad sad pirate

I imagine GP will need a little help if this change goes through

Zero Skill TankMay 18, 20162 votes

Is Stinger's nerf necessary though? Especially that some of current prime Stinger users are also being hit in next patch, namely Azir (directly) and Teemo (indirectly, via item 3009 nerf and item 3047 buff. item 3091 buff is a plus him, but it probably still won't fit most builds)?

I get that introducing another tier 2 AS item would be overkill, but Stinger nerf makes me sad...

bloodmothMay 18, 20164 votes

Would you consider making an entirely new sheen item that functions as an AD lich bane for all those sorry sacks out there that are gangplank? This new TF is pretty well directed, much more than previous iterations, but it leaves a hole in a few other champs hearts

For instance, pick axe, sheen, cloak of agility, 30ad (or something, maybe higher) 20% crit (or more) and sheen proc causes your next auto to deal 100% total ad bonus damage, scaling off AD not just base AD, balanced to be weaker than TF on champs with high base who dont buy AD but stronger on champs that build a lot of AD (AD casters and such)

I think the problem with TF is that it has always tried to do too many things (its problem and greatest asset :P), with a better focus you could split the dual functionality between the 2 crowds that use it and focus it on the 2 unique groups

doubleguacMay 19, 20161 votes

Ya this is actually a pretty huge indirect nerf to Gangplank. Sheen is a huge source of damage for him, but new TF will be pretty sub-optimal (attack speed isn't terribly useful on him, he really needs crit on his core items).

bloodmothMay 20, 20161 votes

Though if it is a big nerf to him im sure they can afford to buff him a little, with a nerf to trinity and a buff to his Qs base damage, bruiser GP might become more prominent...

bloodmothMay 18, 20161 votes

Also, what function is wits end supposed to serve in a build? I dont think anyone wants it because it doesnt seem slot, and ramping MR doesnt seem all that useful, if you are ranged, then you likely dont need the MR so much, or there are better options, if you are melee, then you will likely eat a salvo of spells before even being able to gain a single stack. Who is wits end trying to please? I have another idea for the item, what if it were a lifesteal item? i think lifesteal could synergize really well with with the ramping nature of the item, so that you can make some HP back after eating a salvo of spells, then be resistant to the next set, or perhaps make it an attack speed version of quicksilver blade? Just spitballing, but i do feel like the item is missing something before being considered on a build. Also ranged characters want better stats to scale with than wits offers, and it doesnt cut it as a single offensive item for bruisers..

Sire HippingtonMay 19, 20161 votes

it's not meant as a single off item for bruisers, but to fill a off/def hybrid spot on AS/on-hit champs that maw fills on AD champs. It also is a great utillity item in magic-damge heavy comps as the shred helps any magic damage, and it also synergieses well with any AA-heavy champ that does alot magic damage, like shyvana.

bloodmothMay 19, 20161 votes

Thats a very VERY specific niche! There arent many on hit champs to begin with, and they all kind of function differently so the MR shred might not be useful on all of them anyway. Also, maw functions very differently, it resists burst damage where this reduces sustained magic damage.

Personally i have always thought it needed to offer another stat, make it more of a bruiser item IMO

Akali is SO HOTMay 18, 20164 votes

Can you make the on hit magic damage for wit's end 42 again pls

YJRBqwXJcSMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The TF changes are somewhat experimental and are aimed at generally buffing the item for champions who use a moderately even mix of abilities and auto attacks but don't like crit as much (don't build IE or ER for example).

The Wit's End changes by contrast are just a straight buff. It's underperforming, even on the champions it should be best on, so we're pretty confident we can add a bit of power to it. There's also a sub goal there, by using a Negatron Cloak in the recipe instead of a Null Magic Mantle, of allowing certain champs to go for a heavier MR item early if they need to without having to delay finishing an item as much.

then why not just bring zephyr back and combine it with witts end or something. I just finished finding out a really high dps build with ezreal that utilizes triforce and if crit gets removed i think the build is going to be awful.

you guys already made manamune a waste of time please dont do the same

BluePolarizerMay 19, 20161 votes

your "high DPS build" is based on the misconception that Q crits when it doesn't. You are just autoattacking more often and basically being a lower damage Lucian with some poke.

YJRBqwXJcSMay 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

your "high DPS build" is based on the misconception that Q crits when it doesn't. You are just autoattacking more often and basically being a lower damage Lucian with some poke.

http://i.imgur.com/Mtfx6tP.png Q does crit

Reaper ReviewMay 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

http://i.imgur.com/Mtfx6tP.png Q does crit

Ezreal's Q cannot crit.

If you're doing well as Ezreal, his Physical Damage score will be fairly high simply due to the frequency at which he can use Q.

As for the Largest Crit score, it counts the total damage dealt by any attack that registers as a critical strike. This is why Nasus, Anivia, and Karthus can get such high crit scores.

XIII VanitasMay 18, 20163 votes

Changing item 3078 for Jax and Irelia while screwing over Gangplank , Yasuo and Corki isn't nice. Is there any possibility for the 2 types of TFs to coexist in the same game?

MiraweaveMay 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Changing for and while screwing over , and isn't nice. Is there any possibility for the 2 types of TFs to coexist in the same game?

It was never supposed to be a crit item. Riot tried to make it an ADC item with preseason which nerfed the item for all of it's normal users.

XIII VanitasMay 18, 20162 votes

But it was a crit item, even before the pre-season changes. GP and Corki used to build it just like Jax and Irelia. Towards the end of the season, Yasuo started building it too instead of going for the IE. So I don't really know what you're talking about.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 18, 20167 votes

10% crit. nobody cared for it. everyone cared about the AP and attack speed. we got the AS back. no ap but at least i can buy it on jax now.

Reaper ReviewMay 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

10% crit. nobody cared for it. everyone cared about the AP and attack speed. we got the AS back. no ap but at least i can buy it on jax now.

25 AP didn't exactly do much for Jax, though.

15 extra damage on Q and W, 17.5 extra damage on his ult passive procs, and 5 extra MR from the ult active.

If, hypothetically, Trinity were to build from a Recurve Bow rather than Stinger and gain a bit of on-hit damage, it'd benefit Jax's damage more than the 25 AP did, in all likelihood.

(I still think it should've been Recurve Bow and not Stinger.)

XIII VanitasMay 19, 20161 votes

It was bought on Yasuo specifically for the crit chance and movespeed bonus from the zeal and phage parts.

doubleguacMay 19, 20161 votes

everyone cared about the AP

Wait, what? I feel like Jax is the ONLY champion who cared about the AP.

Reaper ReviewMay 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Wait, what? I feel like Jax is the ONLY champion who cared about the AP.

Jax's Q and W both gained 15 damage from Trinity's former 25 AP. His ult gained ~17.5 on-hit damage and ~5 extra MR.

That's part of the reason why I thought Trinity should build out of Recurve Bow and not Stinger. If it were given a bit of on-hit damage, it would make up for Jax losing the 25 AP, for the most part, since his W and ult passive are both just extra on-hit damage.

doubleguacMay 19, 20161 votes

I'm not saying that Jax doesn't like the AP. I'm just saying that Jax is pretty much the only champion who bought TF who really cared about it.

MunchCruch said that no one cared about the crit and "everyone cared about the AP." Which is crazy.

Irelia BotMay 19, 20161 votes

10% CDR was more a side effect of it having zeal then anything.

LadyRenlyMay 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Changing for and while screwing over , and isn't nice. Is there any possibility for the 2 types of TFs to coexist in the same game?

Triforce was originally changed to benefit Corki and Ezreal by screwing over Jax and Irelia...

XIII VanitasMay 19, 20161 votes

Both Jax and Irelia can make use of crit chance.

Irelia BotMay 20, 20161 votes

but their on hit and lack of going for a crit build makes it less then ideal.

Irelia BotMay 19, 20165 votes

Please just do one more thing to wit's end.

Make it

42 attack speed 42 MR 42 on hit magic damage.

Then we we long time players who bought it in season 2 will be content with it and the cost reduction after this change also happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8

FlemmanMay 19, 20161 votes

can we add a dagger in nashor tooth recipe so you don't sit on 1000 gold while waiting to reach the old 50% AS of old stinger?

AMYS GRAVEMay 19, 20161 votes

why the strange trinity force price point? 3733 seems arbitrary....

Reaper ReviewMay 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

why the strange trinity force price point? 3733 seems arbitrary....

It makes the combine cost 333.

ofartMay 20, 20161 votes

If TF is changed this way, Corki at least should get his passive nerf reverted. Even if TF wasn't changed, it's pretty obvious that was a terrible idea which pretty much killed him as a good pick. Since he can't itemize penetration as efficiently as other champions and he falls off late game, it was pretty necessary. I even stated on the PBE that it was an absolutely horrible idea since it nerfs not only his early game but his scaling as well (which was already bad).

DeathBurstMay 21, 20161 votes

Hey, I know you prefer to focus on simple, short questions, but could you forward this other thread to someone more likely to answer? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/G5W1RQ1n-theorycraft-attack-speed-items-cc-system-team-balance-team

Thank you :)