What if Zeal items received the Lost Chapter items treatement?

Hextech OwI·Mar 18, 2018·63 votes·3,187 views

Where half the bonus movespeed becomes a unique passive so other Zeal items bought after the first only give half of their current movespeed percentage?

50 Comments

NielarkenMar 18, 201844 votes

What I don't understand is why are item 3086 items allowed to stack because they have synergy but item 3057 items and item 3802 items cannot because they have synergy.

KazekibaMar 18, 201810 votes

Because 2 zeals gives you 60% Crit, not 100. Sheen does everything its supposed to, every time it activates, in just one purchase. Zeal does not.

That said, RFC + Shiv stacking (... again) was removed for a reason adn should not have been returned. item 3046 item 3087 item 3031 is the most balanced build when its strongest. Mostly because RFC is completely worthless on its own.

HäxelMar 18, 20188 votes

well, item 3057 damage doesn't stack, item 2015 damage doesn't stack and item 3155 and co shields stack neither. Just the effects stack on all of them. item 3802 stack to that degree that having item 3040 you can use the mana of the other items for Ap and the shield as wella s you get half cdr.

NielarkenMar 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

well, damage doesn't stack, damage doesn't stack and and co shields stack neither. Just the effects stack on all of them. stack to that degree that having you can use the mana of the other items for Ap and the shield as wella s you get half cdr.

But the move speed from finished item 3086 items stacks while finished item 3802 items lose the 10% cdr from the haste passive.

HäxelMar 19, 20182 votes

i mean...you could add it. But the thing is riot kinda wants people to get 100% crit. You see, people like to get frustrated about rng. And riot admiits they want to change how crit works in the future. But with 100% Crit you don't have rng and for this you can;t rage about it. Also going full crit means you go 4 items for it and either loose some defense, some lifesteal, some armorpen or the boots. Making just half of the movementspeed stacking would destroy the whole concept. People could go full lifesteal again, idk if you would realy want this. No longer 100% crit but huge lifestealamounts.

Lost chapter on the other hand is to prevent getting easy the 40%cdr on 2 items. Look, crit at least needs 4 items, cdr with lost chapter items needs currently just 3, 2 with transcendence and 1 item could be ionian boots. How op would also ryze be to get 40% cdr from 2 manaitems while he can use sorcerybotos and with transcendence a third manaitem for a huge amount of extra ap?

Another Point stacking Manapools just removes a weakness mages should have even lategame: limited manapool. Even lategame full items you should get once in a while base and not make for exampel a siege combo that sits 10 min infront of a tower till that falls down or dragon/baron spawns again. Also Lost chapter at least gives full mana and ap, seraph even uses the mana for more ap. Ap and mana are just stats like critchance, attackspeed and movementspeed. Also, not an expert, but attackspeed and movementspeed not stack that good and have limits. Like the 2.5 cap from attacksped. And movementspeed has multiple caps on effectivness. Crit also ends at 100% while cdr can gochanges to ad or ap with transcendence. But adding ap or mana to a champion is always a normal addition and goes theoretical to endless amounts, especialy with gathering storm and some champions abilitys (veigar thresh).

I can see that movementspeed is something adc have to much. Also full crit and best case szenario 3 zealitems allowing adcs to not use boots with not sucha big punishment. But i think this thematic is rather difficult. I would try first how just geting 75% ms of a second zealtiem would change anything meaningful and in a good way on riots own testgroup (not directly pbe).

rtbf225618241Mar 18, 20184 votes

If those 3 things stacked, we'd have some major game-warping issues tbh.

I think Nasus and Ezreal would have an orgasm..

AmazoXMar 18, 20181 votes

{quoted} That said, RFC + Shiv stacking (... again) was removed for a reason adn should not have been returned.

I think they do stack.

My Waifu VanillaMar 18, 20181 votes

There is a past tense in there. They used to interact when they were added to the game during the marksman update. That lasted for about 1-2 patches once Riot figured out that Vayne running someone down from stealth with 2 zeal items and no AD AT ALL was as bad idea (RFC used to do way more damage but not have the "increased Energized rate" effect). They then proceeded to rework RFC and have them stack again (for some reason) and we are where we are now.

KaìjuMar 19, 20181 votes

Which bums me out. I love RFC because of its interesting niche of being a one off range extender but yeah if you get RFC you pretty much are mandated to get Shiv and that I hate.

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20182 votes

because zeal gives a stat, not a special passive.

LordGeovanniMar 19, 20182 votes

Movement speed is or isnt a stat choose one item 3086 item 3113 item 2053 .

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20182 votes

It's a stat, but Raptor's Cloak is a passive that gives conditional movement.

NielarkenMar 19, 20182 votes

item 3086 "Unique: +5% movement speed" item 3802 "Unique – Haste: Grants an additional 10% cooldown reduction" What are you talking about?

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20181 votes

1 is meant to be stacked. The other isn't.

What's your point?

chipndip1Mar 19, 20181 votes

Sheen stacks the same way the Zeal items stack.

KazekibaMar 18, 201815 votes

item 3078 Hey guys remember when I was built out of Zeal? ... Why do I still have Zeal's Movespeed bonus, by the way? Stinger isn't an MS item. Just buff Rage on a completed Trinity, it should not still have the movespeed.

notice me Sin piMar 18, 20184 votes

melee champs use item 3078 mostly, and they need movement speed bonus to even have a chance to catch up to a marksman with just 2 among item 3085 item 3087 item 3094 item 3046 . Would be way better if movement speed were to be removed on both of them

My Waifu VanillaMar 18, 20181 votes

Rage doesn't do anything if you don't hit anything though. I am not denying the fact that the ms is "random" on the item, but buffing Rage isn't going to help melees out when they are the main users of the item (literally only Ezreal/Corki buy it out of ranged champions).

invisiblecat1Mar 19, 20182 votes

item 3078 Gives +5% movement speed Rage is given from Phage, which is a component of Trinity Force, which is appropriate for the item to have However, the +5% movement speed is given out of nowhere

LordGeovanniMar 19, 20181 votes

In the same way item 3046 damage reduction comes out of nowhere not one damage reduction stat on the item yet the item reduces damage.

Chembaron YamadaMar 18, 201814 votes

Would be kinda weird to give items anti-synergy if they are supposed to be bought together.

Crit just really is worth it if you buy it on multiple items and Zeal items are the main source of crit chance, most ADCs buy 2 of them (at least).

It's just not the same like the lost chapter items. Each of these items is efficient on its own, you don't need 2 of them to be efficient and then they anti-synergize with each other...

Done25Mar 18, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Would be kinda weird to give items anti-synergy if they are supposed to be bought together.

That's kind of the point. Statikk Shiv and RFC are really, possibly even too, good together. Making the Zeal move speed unique would help curb the double zeal rush.

F1SHEYESMar 18, 20183 votes

Making the Zeal move speed unique would help curb the double zeal rush

and nerf everyone who builds 2 items that both have zeal. no. you need to make the nerf more specific

HäxelMar 18, 20187 votes

that would straight buf champions who go essense reaver in comparision, so especialy Sivir and Xayah .

saltranMar 18, 20184 votes

{quoted}

that would straight buf champions who go essense reaver in comparision, so especialy and .

Also our queen and saviour Ashe.

LordGeovanniMar 19, 20181 votes

ashe passive too dam powerful to hell with her.

HäxelMar 19, 20182 votes

I said especialy Sivir and Xayah cause essence reaver is on these 2 mandatory. You can't play them without it.

Ashe Lucian Jhin Varus MissFortune Draven KogMaw Quinn all can build it but also can ditch it depending on the meta or personal preferences. Like currently we have onhit Varus and Kog, Kog maybe gets er last. Bc on Miss Fortune or still on Lucian. Bc was also once a Build on Ashe. You can play Ashe just with infinity edge doulbe zeal too. Depending if you want more raw dps or the utility of shorter ult cdr and w spam while you not loose so much mana for exampel.

WimbledofyMar 18, 20182 votes

I would love if sivir was stronger in comparison to the other adc's.

Spank the FoxMar 19, 20181 votes

Sivir isn’t weak compared to other ADCs right now though.

WimbledofyMar 19, 20181 votes

well yeah she's just about average.

VoraciousXMar 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Would be kinda weird to give items anti-synergy if they are supposed to be bought together.

Crit just really is worth it if you buy it on multiple items and Zeal items are the main source of crit chance, most ADCs buy 2 of them (at least).

It's just not the same like the lost chapter items. Each of these items is efficient on its own, you don't need 2 of them to be efficient and then they anti-synergize with each other...

Do ADCs need that much movespeed though when champions like Mordekaiser exist? They can have(don't usually but they CAN potentially have) up to 22% movement speed. That's 2% more than the slow from Rylai's. Zeal already has a little bit of everything. Not saying removing movement speed is the definitive answer(it's not), but should they really have that much potential movement speed? Especially enough to basically half(or more than half if Runaan's) the slow of other items that some champions need to even attempt to get close to someone without movement speed stats(other than boots ofc)? Especially considering they're supposed to be easier to access if you catch them out.

LordGeovanniMar 19, 20182 votes

Except they arent supposed to be bought together zeal items are pick one. players go ugh you didnt make them bad to stack so i think ill stack em. item 3087 and item 3094 espeically are not supposed to be stacked but riot wont turn one off when the other is bought but will do it for item 3078 item 3025 , item 3156 item 3053 which they only did because of adcs abusing the item and wont revert the named passives because it doesnt involve their darling class and its helping their other slightly less darling class (mages)

Chembaron YamadaMar 19, 20183 votes

item 3087 and item 3094 not supposed to be bought together? Riot is basically smacking you in the face that you should buy them both....

RFC makes energized effects stack faster... like Statikks. RFC enables Statikks lightning to work on turrets for extra damage. These items are intentionally designed to work extremely well together. Claiming that these are not supposed to be bought together is factually wrong.

LordGeovanniMar 19, 20182 votes

I can only say what i saw them post when the initially reworked crit and added rapid fire cannon they said that you were supposed to buy either stattick or rapid fire cannon for either poke or aoe damage in team fights. To my knowledge they didnt stack then how or when they changed them since idk

AirKingNeoMar 18, 20187 votes

That's just a nerf to double zeal users. Why should a double zeal user suffer for no reason while an ER zeal user doesn't?

Why make a pointless nerf?

Leaf on BushMar 19, 20184 votes

Why make a pointless nerf?

Because the boards are still desperately trying to come up with some arbitrary nerfs for ADC's. It's really getting ridiculous and everytime they fail at justifying it.

KyunseiMar 18, 20186 votes

They should remove RFC/Statik stacking together.

Then add 2 more zeal items, one like phantom dancer (utility) and one for melee specific.

Also, RFC should give +150 flat range on the charged attack, so some melee could utilize it.

/// Wishlist btw

JbelsMar 18, 20183 votes

If the bonus move speed became a unique passive, the amount of movement speed on other Zeals/Zeal items would be 0%

Hextech OwIMar 18, 20185 votes

{quoted}

If the bonus move speed became a unique passive, the amount of movement speed on other Zeals/Zeal items would be 0%

If the items works like Lost Chapter, their movespeed percentage is halved between raw stats and unique passive.

ŚhunpoMar 18, 20183 votes

Just nerf Shiv and make it so that Shiv+RFC don't stack, and possibly change Zeal items to have 20% crit. chance so if ADCs DO want that 100% crit. chance dream they have to base their whole build around it.

Additionally, this would make it so that ADCs have to actually put some thought into what they're building and not just going the same 3 items every game because they give 80% crit. chance. We'd likely see some more build diversity.

PoskeMar 18, 20182 votes

Thats actually a good suggestion. But it wont accomplish much. Its still good but dont get me wrong this doesnt fix the current situation

But there are better alternatives like

Crit rework, NO RNG in compettetive ESPORT MOBA
Fixing the current Retarded Mr/Armor curve which makes tanks megatanky early / with 1 item, but squishy at full build due to % Pen

Riot thinks they can fix the second issue by injecting %dmg reduction in every melee or making everyone interact with stoneplate in broken ways

Ionian VulpixMar 18, 20182 votes

Honestly, the movespeed is fine. Standard crit ADCs don't build Amy other items that give MS other than boots and they generally have lower MS than other classes.

The price of then still needs to be increased and the Shiv + RFC combo needs to not exist, but the MS is fine.

CasterGilgameshMar 19, 20181 votes

but isnt the reason they have less ms then other classes because they have long ass range and they build said zeal items that give them ms

FCJAAAAGOOOOMar 19, 20182 votes

MS of each one could be halved on ranged champions only?

LordPieMar 19, 20182 votes

Do it with the attack speed and you have a deal.

GrokmirMar 18, 20181 votes

They do now.

Riot made them unique, but reverted that during the lul adc 2k17 era.

BubbaVMar 18, 20181 votes

because this is riot games

StarGuardianWeebMar 19, 20181 votes

I just think that IE and Essence Reaver should be 40% crit with nerfs to dmg or increased cost, and Zeals should all give 30%. Then you only ever need 3 crit items for 100% and when you account for boots, thats 2 spots left. 1 for a "utility" item like mercurials or one of the 2 Last Whisper items and a big damage dealing item like probably GA cause dmg plus OP revive (with BOTRK or Bloodthirster being occasional options for select champs or games)

Balance the dumb crit champs like Yas (who doesnt even need it tbh) and Trynd (who could use a rework in general) and adjust any other numbers accordingly. Plus that boost in finishing crit faster and the Attack Speed gained would easily warrant making Zeal effect Unique. Just an opinion tho.

Handy Sandy Mar 19, 20181 votes

just remove the ms on zeal items, in a perfect world crit helps with squishies not tanks and you use ms to kite tanks. Give crit items less attack speed and more AD, they're for burst not dps.

get a whole branch of new items designed for tank shredding that gives ms and make it inefficient to build them along with crit. They'd give AS and like x% current hp dmg each auto that stacks together. They'd give less AD.