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Jungle Ivern Starting Items. Hunter's Potion > Talisman??

Elite4Runner··7 votes·3,043 views

The downside of having plenty of time to think to myself while working overnights is that I come up with theories that I can not actually test.

Just after Ivern was released I posed a question on the Boards about skipping Jungle items.

I was met with a lot of downvotes. (Which may, or may not, happen again this time)

People were insistent on starting Hunter's Talisman because it provides "Bonus Special Experience", and they were correct, it does.

I conceited defeat and moved on.

Until now, ...

Yes, with Hunter's Talisman you gain experience faster. You also gain +150% Base Mana Regeneration, but that isn't really saying much because at level 1, Ivern has the 4th lowest total Base Mp5 (6.2 Mp5) and has mediocre Mp5 growth per level.

But, an aggressive clear with this item leaves him dangerously low pretty fast, even if you spend your remaining 150 gold on a Refillable Potion.

So here is my theory,

Starting with Hunter's Potion means that you have more charges on purchase than Refillable Potion, each charge offers mana as well which will give you more mana than you gain from Talisman, and you gain additional charges after "freeing" a camp.

Pro Tip - Unless they have changed this since I last tested it, unlike with other champions, killing/"freeing" a camp with full charges does not automatically activate a charge.

So in theory, you will not gain levels as quickly early on, but you will be healthier for longer. This should mean you can actually remain in the jungle for longer, or even have enough health and mana to gank earlier. This could even POTENTIALLY (This is the part that requires testing) lead to higher levels at an earlier point in the game.

This would also almost completely eliminate the need for a jungle item, most of which are designed to make you more effective at killing jungle monsters, and with the exception of Dragon and Baron, you do not do as Ivern. I say just skip them and go straight for a laning item that offers more useful utility.

Another small addition to this would be to sacrifice the Runic Affinity mastery, for Secret Stash.

Ivern has pretty easy access to Red and Blue buffs, so the increased duration is, useful, but may not be as necessary. Instead, by taking Secret Stash, you further increase the effectiveness of Hunter's Potion.

12 Comments

xBushx6 votes

Giving up on the bonus Exp on the first clear is about the stupidest thing you can do....

Who cares if you can do more if it doesn't work out to be over all more efficient.

Try doing a test and seeing how long it takes to get to level 6 using both build and I assure you with JG item you will get there substantially faster.

Elite4Runner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=x Bush x,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MKXggY4w,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-02T15:37:45.219+0000)

Giving up on the bonus Exp on the first clear is about the stupidest thing you can do....

Who cares if you can do more if it doesn't work out to be over all more efficient.

Try doing a test and seeing how long it takes to get to level 6 using both build and I assure you with JG item you will get there substantially faster.

I'm not so sure. He doesn't really scale all that well by level.

Instead he seems to scale better with items, more specifically AP.

Safely remaining in the jungle to clear more camps will net you more gold.

By not dumping money into a jungle item that only offers you strong utility early game, you can immediately begin investing on in his mid game with stronger ganks, and late game with a stronger team fight presence, which will allow you to easily make up the small experience deficit.

Wolfess2 votes

i did my first Ivern game yesterday. Had a decent good time even though I don't really jungle often.

Started hunters potion because I saw little to no benefit from jungle items on him. He doesn't really FIGHT the jungle aside from dragon/baron so there was no need for their hp or mp sustain abilities while fighting. Plus I don't think you get the bonus exp from them since you're technically not killing them (could be wrong though, idk)

I did not buy a jungle item at all that match. enemy had tons of magic damage though so I started with some ruby crystals and went specter's cowl and then into a spirit visage. I would recommend starting at either blue or ted buff and immediately smiting it to clear the first camp, get your smite on cooldown to start coming back up immediately, and getting your buff to sustain through his passive. After three camps he's gona be pretty much out of mana so if you started red, immediately go get blue ready to smite first. you should have just about enough mana for the 4th camp by using the hunter's potions. As ivern, you're pretty much set up to start ganking at lvl 2, q CC and E shield+slow. W is actually not that useful aside from trying to apply pressure or psychological warfare. PLEASE DO NOT USE W MINDLESSLY IF ENEMY HAS A RENGAR, AND STARTING SEASON 7 YOU NEED TO BE MORE CAREFUL AS WELL SINCE KHA'S EVOLVED R GIVES HIM A FREE PASSIVE PROC OF HIS ULT. ASSASSINS WILL ALSO GET A USE OF THE REWORKED DUSKBLADE WHEN THEY ENTER COMBAT FROM NOT IN VISIBLE RANGE.

Daisy is pretty useful CC as well with the potentially spammable knockups.

I do feel that a no-jungle-item Ivern can be a very viable build path that removes the questionable jungler item from his build and can replace it with something more concrete to counter the enemy team.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Seems like the XP ud miss out would be too much, maybe if you took XP runes i could agree with it though xD

TeCoolMage1 votes

With the new pre season smite changes I'm going to have to say no, as Ivern will definitely have enough sustain in the jungle to clear his entire side without backing.

Though I can see it being a cheese counterjungling start.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Remaining in the jungle for longer becomes irrelevant next week with the new jungle. All camp respawn times besides blue and red are increasing by 50 seconds. The only thing a healthy clear frees you up to do is gank or invade.

And with the 20 second increase on Smite's cooldown, you don't want to invade as often on Ivern.

Secret Butt Fun1 votes

Why not just go through the jg as quickly as possible to set up clears, go back and buy the xp item, then go around freeing them for a massive boost of xp?

The only negative would be if the enemy jungler went inside to steal a buff and saw you had nothing cleared.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

refillable potion is trash. Start talisman and 3 pots. Now you get the bonus xp and stay healthy.

RogueWill1 votes

I will start with 5 pots, free everything, recall, get my jungle item and then pop the spell so the camps die and I get my XP and now I'm full HP because I recalled.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Talisman.

You need the bonus experience.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Talisman.

You need the bonus experience.

+50 exp for killing large monsters and +30 exp for each level above you a monster is. This doesn't say "large monsters" so I assume that it could apply to any monster.

If we assume that you clear 6 camps before getting too low, and you will most likely be ahead in level, you will only gain about 300 bonus exp.

The speed at which you clear camps would not be improved by Talisman because it does not provide any bonus damage like it does with other junglers. In fact, the lack of health/mana sustain will likely put you below the required health/mana needed to mark a camp sooner.

The ability to remain in the jungle long enough to clear two extra camps (on either side of the river) and/or to gank a lane, should make up for this experience difference.

Skipping the jungle item means you can move on to getting an item that will make you more effective at ganking, dueling, or invading.

Even skipping the jungle item in favor of mobility boots will help you to make up the experience difference by allowing you to roam/clear faster.

it be lìke that1 votes

just find out what side your opponent started on via a bot/top ward and go insta-gib a red/blue from him, mark as many camps as you can in this time, get the 250g for your hunters potion, then clear?

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