The fact that 3 of the top 4 top lamers are ranged or basically ranged due to an ability...

Irelia Bot·Oct 23, 2016·19 votes·2,127 views

This shows just how real this melee VS ranged problem actually is in top

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.overallPosition&order=ascend&roleSort=Top

The only melee that is really causing them a problem is Irelia and that is because she was created to fight ranged. This is the meta she was created to deal with. But Irelia is the only melee actually created with this in mind that is not drastically changed form the original concept.

It is time to diversify top Riot.

74 Comments

MarshbouyOct 23, 201614 votes

Out of the top 10, 2 are ranged that have a 3< % playrate. I fail to see an issue.

It is time to diversify top Riot.

Blatant lie right there. Going off playrate the top 20, 3 are ranged. Top 30, 5 are ranged.

Looks like there are still plenty of melees going top.

RivuoOct 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Out of the top 10, 2 are ranged that have a 3< % playrate. I fail to see an issue.

graves isnt supposed to be a top champ... Neither is swain...

Graves originates from bot lane to jungle and swain originally a mid laner..

Taking them top just goes to show you how stupid they are

MarshbouyOct 23, 201614 votes

graves isnt supposed to be a top champ... Neither is swain...

both have 1.7% and lower playrates. I again fail to see an issue here.

swain originally a mid laner.

Swain is a draintank that is low range and vulnerable to being bursted. Doesn't sound like a great mid lane pick to me TBH.

RivuoOct 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

both have 1.7% and lower playrates. I again fail to see an issue here.

You're comparing lanes they arent even supposed to be in. of course they will have lower playrate.

Swain is a draintank that is low range and vulnerable to being bursted. Doesn't sound like a great mid lane pick to me TBH.

And if you know anything about league you'd know Swain is the Anti-assassin

Who goes mid lanes?

Assassins.

ProfDrDeathOct 23, 20165 votes

Midlane hasn't had much (if any) assassins since the mage update...

MarshbouyOct 23, 20167 votes

You're comparing lanes they arent even supposed to be in. of course they will have lower playrate.

This is entirely irrelevant. Low playrate shows that the only times they are picked are either to A. counter B. On a OTP/main Neither of those reasons are good enough for a nerf.

And if you know anything about league

oh boy whipping out that card huh?

Swain is the Anti-assassin

and assassins are not frequent picks ATM. What's your basis for that claim anyway?

RivuoOct 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This is entirely irrelevant. Low playrate shows that the only times they are picked are either to A. counter B. On a OTP/main Neither of those reasons are good enough for a nerf.

I wasent saying your information was invalid. I was saying that mentioning that swain and graves arent even supposed to be in that lane yet they retain high winrates, if anything it helps OPs argument.

oh boy whipping out that card huh?

Is it a lie..?

Swain is known as the anti-burst champ... I think we all know that

and assassins are not frequent picks ATM. What's your basis for that claim anyway?

Explains why swain has a low play rate that you speak of

MarshbouyOct 23, 20162 votes

point 1. Swain has a 53% winrate and a 1.74% playrate. He seems a teensy bit OP but nothing super crazy. His players average a little under 70 games with him. That means that

There are few swain players
The people who do play swain have experience playing him both of those factors will increase is overall winrate.

Graves has a winrate of 50.5%. that's hardly a "high winrate", not to mention that the two points i stated for swain also apply to graves about the same.

Swain is known as the anti-burst champ... I think we all know that

Clearly we all don't. I could have sworn that burst beat sustain and hard CC/tank beat burst. If you have some actual stats that back swain countering assassins that would be great. (I tried to find some but the data sets were so tiny that it was worthless to bring up)

Explains why swain has a low play rate that you speak of

He's not fun
He's incredibly uninteractive to play as

I don't know why he has such a low playrate, i can't feasibly explain why since it is inherently incredibly subjective.

low play rate that you speak of

your language here suggests that you don't believe me. http://champion.gg/champion/Swain/Top

TalisidOct 23, 20163 votes

Building tanky tends to be the counter to burst damage and Swain can easily adjust his build to be more tanky and less dependent on healing and stay relevant. He's an overall lane-bully and doesn't really struggle in many lane matchups. He power-spikes in the mid game and falls off somewhat later when ADC's start to out damage and out sustain him so he can't bully his way into the middle of the enemy team as effectively.

The real reason why Swain isn't a great mid lane is that his waveclear is bad. In top lane that's less of an issue because top tower rarely gets sieged. He also doesn't deal so well with long-ranged farm lanes, which doesn't usually happen in top lane.

MordepoolOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

both have 1.7% and lower playrates. I again fail to see an issue here.

Swain is a draintank that is low range and vulnerable to being bursted. Doesn't sound like a great mid lane pick to me TBH.

He was midlane until ahri came out. She counters him fairly hard so he moved to plane and had more successful there

CatastropOct 23, 20165 votes

The reason they're taken top is to counter the cancer melees that other melees struggle against. Your ignorance of this fact shows the same of you.

TalisidOct 23, 20161 votes

Yeah tbh if ranged top laners can keep Darius out of the meta that's not too bad.

WoonStruckOct 23, 20161 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Top&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

Only 4 of the 14 ranged top laners are below rank 24. Those 4 are all below rank 43. People are terrible at those (Vlad/Ryze/Gnar/Lissandra).

Not only that, but outside of Ryze, who is seen as incredibly weak due to going tanky no longer being a great option, the others have all been nerfed to the point where most people find them unplayable.

Keep in mind that these champions are also known for their abuse to many melees.

MarshbouyOct 23, 20162 votes

I am going to fully admit that i didn't understand what you just said.

MarshbouyOct 23, 20161 votes

So basically what you are saying is it's either good or terrible with ranged top laners. Okay, i agree, but how do you tie this in to the current discussion?

WoonStruckOct 23, 20161 votes

Because either they're really good, or they're even better. Then they get nerfed until they aren't great top lane.

The only champs that aren't in the top 25 were seen as huge issues top lane at one point or another and nerfed accordingly.

MarshbouyOct 23, 20162 votes

4 have more than a 3% playrate. Those include kennen, jayce, gnar, and teemo (in descending order of playrate). Kennen and jayce definitely need some changes because they are over performing, teemo has a playerbase average of 100 games (i think i just got cancer), and gnar is underperforming(probably due to meta shifts).

Basically only 2 of the of 14 ranged top laners have a real issue because they have

high playrates
are performing well
low playerbase averages (jayce and kennen have <35 average games)

All three of these things are big warning signs to a champion overperforming in the game. I assume since you seem to be a smart guy you can understand why 1.3% playrate 50% winrate graves top isn't an issue.

If you draw another conclusion form the statistics I'd like to debate over it, but I'm not sure what my mental state is going to be after mowing the lawn. I might just go "ah fuck it".

jaymc1130Oct 23, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Out of the top 10, 2 are ranged that have a 3< % playrate. I fail to see an issue.

Blatant lie right there. Going off playrate the top 20, 3 are ranged. Top 30, 5 are ranged.

Looks like there are still plenty of melees going top.

Think about what's being played competitively at worlds and throughout the season mate.

Gnar, GP, Kennen, Jayce, poppy, ekko are all ranged champs essentially. Every single one has reliable, spammable ranged harass.

Packun FlowerOct 23, 20162 votes

Poppy has 1 Ability that she has no control over that gives her a single ranged attack. I'm talking about her passive and even that has a 16 second cool down at the start of the match. People don't play Pop because of a free ranged auto every 16 seconds, they play her because she has amazing team utility and peel + tank which allows her to fit into most team comps solidly.

jaymc1130Oct 23, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Poppy has 1 Ability that she has no control over that gives her a single ranged attack. I'm talking about her passive and even that has a 16 second cool down at the start of the match. People don't play Pop because of a free ranged auto every 16 seconds, they play her because she has amazing team utility and peel + tank which allows her to fit into most team comps solidly.

She also has the advantage against melee champs like jax or renek because she has the ability to harass them from range with her passive while simultaneously having the same access to mobility, durability, and crowd control as these champions. The biggest reason we aren't seeing much of GP at worlds right now is because poppy has a pseudo ranged aa on a cd as nearly as short as GP q that can be used to harass or safely clear barrels while also granting her a shield giving her immunity from ranged harass herself.

Poppy is becoming a classic example of why melee champions in top lane are no longer relevant in this game. She does everything they do while being basically immune to both ranged and melee tops herself through inherent aspects of her kit that either prevent her from being jumped on, provide her durability when being jumped on or harassed, and having the ability to harass and farm herself from range.

Poppy is not a melee champ in lane. Same for the others. Only one melee champ is being played at worlds in top lane. One. Rumble. And he has ranged spammable ranged harass himself, although because it is blocked by minions he doesn't qualify with these other champs as being a ranged top laner because his ranged harass is not reliable. Trundle got played like twice, and got crushed both times by ranged top laners.

At this point there is no denying range creep and it's affect on the game which is causing pretty all melee champs to become unviable in competitive play. It's a real problem no matter how much any one would like to disagree with that reality.

NarasimhaOct 23, 20164 votes

e poppy has a pseudo ranged aa on a cd as nearly as short as GP q

Poppy passive: 16/13/10 seconds GP Q: 5 seconds

What on earth is your definition of 'nearly'!?!?!

jaymc1130Oct 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Poppy passive: 16/13/10 seconds GP Q: 5 seconds

What on earth is your definition of 'nearly'!?!?!

You might want to consider how long that shield lasts. It's pretty pointless to q her when she's shielded. If you don't think she has an advantage in this lane (which is basically ranged on ranged the way it's played) go try playing it yourself.

There's a reason I'm a 4 consecutive season high diamond player and former master tier player and most of you folks aren't. I understand issues like this and the unique problems they present. For the most part y'all simply don't.

BreakuOct 23, 20162 votes

Post on that account please fam

jaymc1130Oct 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Post on that account please fam

Why post on likeamaws or oOBestEveNAOo when I'm known for years and years as JayMC? That only confuses people. If you don't know me you are new to the boards. All you have to do to find proof these are my accounts is check my post history and look at the screenshots... Or have watched any of the streams I've been on. And hell, most of y'all still say "that's not you!" Despite the mountains of evidence and thousands of boards users who confirm it for you because they've played with me.

BreakuOct 23, 20161 votes

Oh, no, I'm not looking for proof. I just wanted to look at what you played.

I haven't played top lane at all this season.

jaymc1130Oct 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh, no, I'm not looking for proof. I just wanted to look at what you played.

I haven't played top lane at all this season.

I'll admit I've been moving away from laning the past 2 seasons. My skills in lane and mechanical ability are pretty lackluster and the individual skill metrics you can find on me will back this up.

GayFluffyUnicornOct 24, 20161 votes

Poppy is the worst (melee) match up GP can have like seriously. Any decent poppy shits all over on GP if you can't consistently hit your barells and passive burn when her shield is down.

NarasimhaOct 24, 20161 votes

You... are actually forgetting about Pantheon , huh?

CalypsaOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Out of the top 10, 2 are ranged that have a 3< % playrate. I fail to see an issue.

Blatant lie right there. Going off playrate the top 20, 3 are ranged. Top 30, 5 are ranged.

Looks like there are still plenty of melees going top.

I think what they are getting at is that of the top 5 top laners through win percentage, 3 of those are ranged. Meaning the ranged champions who go top lane have higher win percentages than those who are melee. They really aren't talking about play rate because it doesn't really matter, if a certain class of champions is dominant even slightly over the meta picks then it's kind of an issue.

DemoGuideOct 24, 20161 votes

Believe me, its gonna change pretty soon.

WoonStruckOct 23, 20165 votes

And if they don't pick a ranged, its Darius, Illaoi, or Trundle, who the majority of melees are at a severe disadvantage against.

ProfDrDeathOct 23, 20161 votes

This.

Imagine a world in which ranged top laners were unviable. The next complaint would be about the anti-melee champions up there.

Irelia BotOct 23, 20163 votes

the fact that only Irelia is a counter to the ranged is the problem.

ProfDrDeathOct 23, 20163 votes

Looking at the match-up perfomances of the most popular ranged tops (the ones that are top 15 in pickrate, Jayce Kennen Gnar Teemo ) for counters, in addition to Irelia Pantheon and Yasuo :

JarvanIV : You only need to gapclose once.

DrMundo : Mundo cleaves where he pleases. Seriously, he gets too resislient too fast for those champions to deal with (save for Teemo )

Malphite : Not for Kennen, though. Against ADs, he can just rush item 3068 and become virtually unkillable.

Poppy : Against Jayce and Gnar, not against Kennen. Same idea as Malphite.

Sion : Against all of them. Same story as above. Utterly crushes Gnar - almost 66% winrate in that match-up.

MonkeyKing : Generally, same idea as J4.

Chogath : For some reason, does really well against Jayce, but not so much into the other three.

Generally speaking, the thing about these ranged top laners is that they are really good at countering the most popular melee champions - Riven, Darius, Renekton, Fiora, Gangplank and (in Kennen's case) Yasuo.

Wind WhistlerOct 23, 20161 votes

Lol? What kind of shitty Renekton gets beaten by a Gnar? Or Jayce? Or even Teemo? I've absolutely crushed all three of them in lane. Especially Gnar.

WoonStruckOct 23, 20161 votes

Renekton is easy to deal with as any ranged laner. You literally just afk farm until he can't burst half your health with a combo. He takes more return damage then when he goes to harass after that point. Or you can just bait him into wasting his combo, or even ganks.

You've absolutely crushed bad ranged top players. That's all you're stating here.

Wind WhistlerOct 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Renekton is easy to deal with as any ranged laner. You literally just afk farm until he can't burst half your health with a combo. He takes more return damage then when he goes to harass after that point. Or you can just bait him into wasting his combo, or even ganks.

You've absolutely crushed bad ranged top players. That's all you're stating here.

It's not difficult to dash up to someone and rip their face off, then dash back.

jaymc1130Oct 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's not difficult to dash up to someone and rip their face off, then dash back.

Sure, when you play players with the average skill level of beginner bots... Which is your skill range...

Wind WhistlerOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sure, when you play players with the average skill level of beginner bots... Which is your skill range...

Stop exaggerating.

jaymc1130Oct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Stop exaggerating.

Lol the only one exaggerating was you when you posted this ridiculously false comment: "Renekton doesn't fall off late".

Lmao.

Everyone stopped taking anything you said seriously after that one statement proved your complete lack of comprehension of league of legends.

Wind WhistlerOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lol the only one exaggerating was you when you posted this ridiculously false comment: "Renekton doesn't fall off late".

Lmao.

Everyone stopped taking anything you said seriously after that one statement proved your complete lack of comprehension of league of legends.

Hmmm... Maybe if you didn't build Renekton full tank like every retard does the statement I made would be true?

jaymc1130Oct 24, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Hmmm... Maybe if you didn't build Renekton full tank like every retard does the statement I made would be true?

You are trying to argue that your opinion trumps the FACT that Renekton is a champion who scales extremely poorly. When all the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming to the point that he's not been played competitively for the most part since season 3 and early in season 4 because of just how poorly he transitions from laning phase into mid game and late game.

Just stop mate. You only make yourself look really, really, REALLY foolish.

Wind WhistlerOct 24, 20161 votes

200% Total AD Ratio on W. 140% Bonus AD Ratio on E. That's all you fucking need to one shot a squishy. How do you scale really poorly when you can fucking one shot someone?

The Sword SaintOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

200% Total AD Ratio on W. 140% Bonus AD Ratio on E. That's all you fucking need to one shot a squishy. How do you scale really poorly when you can fucking one shot someone?

It starts with being able to actually get to a a squishy without dying instantly, which is what happens to a non tank renekton in a teamfight against decent players.

That's even being generous since there's no way in hell you are going to actually hit a priority target with your e without at least double dashing through some sort of tank or other frontline and thus losing half your rage.

jaymc1130Oct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

200% Total AD Ratio on W. 140% Bonus AD Ratio on E. That's all you fucking need to one shot a squishy. How do you scale really poorly when you can fucking one shot someone?

When your primary job is to damage soak, peel, zone, and provide reliable hard engage and you cannot do this at all in competitive play from a role that this is required of... you scale very poorly.

What does it matter if you can one shot a squishy when you get zoned off them and one shot yourself?

Renekton is not a good split push threat, hes not a good teamfighter, hes not good as far as utility goes, hes a pure lane bully who brings nothing to a team aside from being a lane bully. If you don't even have the ability to function in the ways your role needs to function in competitive play because your kit doesn't allow you to how can you scale well?

Its like trying to tell us Irelia scales well.

Or Riven.

Or Katarina.

Champions who are only ever viable when the get disgustingly far ahead and can end the game before having to scale.

You're elo is showing mate. You might want to cover your modesty.

Wind WhistlerOct 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MGOlioRp,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T02:14:42.667+0000)

It starts with being able to actually get to a a squishy without dying instantly, which is what happens to a non tank renekton in a teamfight against decent players.

That's even being generous since there's no way in hell you are going to actually hit a priority target with your e without at least double dashing through some sort of tank or other frontline and thus losing half your rage.

Or, you know, you build a few tanky items so you don't instantly die? Also, do you even know what managing your fury is?

Wind WhistlerOct 24, 20161 votes

He has a shit ton of damage. How do people die? Damage. It's straightforward. I'm not saying he's an amazing teamfighter, nor an ideal splitpusher. I'm simply saying you're exaggerating on everything.

Why does my elo matter so much to you? Did you fail to get silver last season or something? LOL.

The Sword SaintOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Or, you know, you build a few tanky items so you don't instantly die? Also, do you even know what managing your fury is?

You're not making any sense. If you double dash to get to a target, you can only have at most half a rage bar when you get there because either you had a full bar and half was consumed when you hit the first dash or you had just under half a and were pushed over into having half a bar when you hit the first dash. Any other result is that you don't even get one empowered ability, and this is assuming that you started the fight with some fury from hitting minions or jungle creeps.

The Sword SaintOct 24, 20164 votes

{quoted}

It's not difficult to dash up to someone and rip their face off, then dash back.

Properly positioned, you will need to double dash to reach a ranged laner - which would eat at least one of your rage abilities (assuming max rage before going in) leaving you with much less damage when you got to the target, plus no way to dash back out - so assuming you didn't one shot the ranged enemy laner the very first time you went on them (and you didn't because you didn't have a full rage bar) you are then forced to walk back to your minions while taking minion aggro and eating tons of return damage from auto attacks and abilities. You would have already been at less then full hp before you went in for this trade because you needed to save your abilities and auto creeps to build your rage bar, the whole time taking ranged harass, and since you will be out of abilities after the trade you will be zoned completely from the minion line since you don't even have the threat of dashing back onto the enemy for 15 seconds or so, which you don't even have rage for by the way since you'll probably outright die if you try to auto the minion wave after taking all this harass.

You basically have to get onto the enemy and one shot them. Against a competent ranged enemy, this is only possible with a jungler gank or by you flashing and killing them before they can react, and lets not forget that they have escapes and flash and a jungler too, and as renekton they likely also outscale you so they are not the ones who have a pressure to make an aggressive move.

GayFluffyUnicornOct 24, 20162 votes

We are talking about the higher levels of play in these comparisons. It doesn't matter which silver shitter you crushed when they obviously can't fully utilise their champ. On my smurf i'm basically unbeaten in any match up as GP whereas i moved my GP from top to midlane on my main since current popular champs like jayce, poppy, kennen totally shit on him. I've been also utterly destroyed by poppy as jayce on my main (though i'm still figuring out jayce, haven't played him since s4) but destroyed every poppy on my smurf so far.